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of which there has been one since the early 1980's
the riots that ocurred last year?
Just trying to remember if there were any significant riots during the 10 years of Labour?
Dunno, ask the people of Bradford, Oldham, Burnley & Birmingham 😉
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Oldham_race_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Bradford_race_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Birmingham_race_riots
Zulu-Eleven - Member"To get an accurate 'death rate' you'd need to compare the amount that hit rather than just fired."
Why? do you think that the ones fired in Northern Ireland were intended to miss (from the lads I know, I'm pretty confident that they were fired very much with the intention of not missing!)
Where did you get intentionally missed from?
Do you think they're 100% accurate?
Ones that miss have no chance of causing death. Because they miss. A percentage of those that hit cause deaths, and that is the real death rate.
10000 is not that many really is it? Enough to have them stock piled in a number of handy locations around the capital and arm a couple of hundred suitably qualified police with enough for a busy night and enough spare for the same again the next day. Can't imagine any sane Commissioner would want to be in charge when even a fraction got used but it would be proper embarrassing to run out. Cost buttons in the big scheme of things and the whole lot would fit in a dozen suit cases.
No biggie IMO.
Do you think they're 100% accurate?
The AEP is claimed to exceed 95% accuracy against a 400mm x 600mm target at 50m. again, source, Janes...
so, pretty good - but for the sake of making you happy, 95% accuracy would indicate that your death rate would increase to 0.0143% instead of 0.0136 %
happy now 😉
It was a question, so thanks.
Well, I think you could argue that a fair percentage of those that miss their intended target end up hitting someone else, who was not the intended target, hit them in a part of the body that was not intended, and may in that case cause death, infact its probably more likley to result in death in a situation where they miss their intended target in a chaotic crowd/riot situation with lots of other people around and hit someone else in the head, rather than the lower body of the person they were being aimed at, and that the figure of seventeen would include those killed where the victim was not the intended target - 125,000 is a pretty big sample size to account for "all sorts of eventualities and blind chance" - but if anything you could argue that the more modern ones, with better accuracy and more modern launchers, with red dot/laser sights, are goign to be more likley to hit the intended target than the older ones and therefore safer.
from the lads I know
Wow, you know lads that fired rubber bullets...does that make up just a little pit for the feelings of impotence you have for not having had the chance to fire one yourself? Must feel pretty awesome for a guy like you Zulu.
Otherwise, what a bollocks statistic - something that's supposed not to kill actually killed seventeen people. That's a fantastic success rate. You must have spaffed all over your copy of Janes when you read that.
10 000 baton rounds is an absurd number. that years of supply at the rate they were used in NI during the height of the troubles.
Funnily enough DD, I've not fired a baton round, but I have fired bean bag rounds, which are quite a clever little invention, you can even make a little chair for a pet mouse out of them afterwards, how cute 😉
something that's supposed not to kill
I think that's why they call them "less lethal" rather than "non lethal" 🙄
I think that's why they call them "less lethal" rather than "non lethal"
Well, I dunno Zulu, what are they supposed to do, kill or not kill (and just kinda sting a bit)? You're our weapons expert...or at least, you seem to be the one that likes them most.
death rate would increase to 0.0143% instead of 0.0136 %
What a low rate of death! I'm sure that figure provides great comfort to the families of civilians killed by baton rounds, as it would be to you should one of your family members get hit in the head by a ricochet whilst out shopping.
Given the high risk of injury or death with plastic bullets, all Met occifers should have it drilled into their thuggish/racist/distorted minds that these firearms are not advisable for general use on civilians by somewhat following the yank Tazer training system.
'civil' ians should be fine.
Anybody got any statistic for the number of M16 5.56mm rounds fired versus number of deaths since 1990?
I have a feeling it's going to prove that the combination of M16 and M16 5.56mm rounds is indeed quite safe - with a staggeringly low death rate. Somebody's got to have read a publication with the statistics? If the pages aren't still stuck together, can that person dig them out for me please?
10 000 baton rounds is an absurd number. that years of supply at the rate they were used in NI during the height of the troubles.
there's a substantial difference between numbers used and numbers deployed and reserved.
SO19/CO19 (whatever theyre called) probably have thousands of live rounds at their disposal. Each officer will have a couple of magazines of 20+ rounds each on their person, probably a load more in the boot of the car. And then reserves in the armoury. It doesnt mean theyre planning on deploying them all in one saturday night gun-toting columbine-style cordite-fest does it?
Yoghurt-knitting synthetic outrage of the highest order.
Should one of your family members get hit in the head by a ricochet whilst out shopping.
Do your family members often go shopping while there's a full blown riot going on just down the street Papa Lazarou? Mine dont!
oldgit - Member
Given the high risk of injury or death with plastic bullets, all Met occifers should have it drilled into their thuggish/racist/distorted minds that these firearms are not advisable for general use on civilians by somewhat following the yank Tazer training system.
'civil' ians should be fine.
unless they are kindof dark skinned and running late for their tube
stoner - but what possible purpose does 10 000 of them have?
No way on earth is that any sort of a sensible number considering they have never been deployed on the mainland - hundreds might be reasonable - 10 000? come off it - thats just a huge waste of money
I got loads of stuff given to me for free during the last riots. It's a bloody brilliant time to go shopping.
Yoghurt-knitting synthetic outrage of the highest order.
Synthetic? Surely that should be organic and fair trade?
😉
Maybe rubber bullets were on a bogof or soemthing?
stoner - but what possible purpose does 10 000 of them have?
To kill 1.43 persons?
the Royal Artillery fired 170,000,000 shells in the first world war.
I do wonder if their fatality rate/shell was actually any 'better' than rubber bullets fired by British Police at civilians?
TJ - read my post above. It's about deploying and storing in multiple locations in sufficient quantities and reducing reliance on transport and increasing response time. Only one thing worse than having to use baton rounds on your own population and that's getting there late in the day when you have totally lost control and having to use a lot more of them.
They'll also be wanting to lob off a few to make sure they know how to use them and increase the number of officers qualified to use them (to improve the above) which will use quite a few a year I'd imagine.
I'd save getting your knickers in a twist for when we actually have disproportionate USE of them on the mainland.
I have fired a few back in the day. They are highly inaccurate because the converted Very pistol that fires them has such a short barrel. So much so that our RUC brothers would hit the ground with them by mistake making the bullets mistakenly bounce up, hitting the protesting catholics at groin height. by mistake. Don't remember seeing them used against protesting protestants though. Funny that.
Convert - I read it. Its no excuse for 10 000 of them. How many locations? How many in use in any one incident? How many officers that are able to use them. Its totally OTT
I am not outraged - I merely point out the stupidity of this and wonder if its corrupt purchasing - someone just made a load of money on this
They have never been used on the mainland, the met had 700 of them - what has changed that they now need 10 000 of them?
I'd save getting your knickers in a twist for when we actually have disproportionate USE of them on the mainland.
That would be too late.
to kill 1.43 persons
I nominate.....
seconded
Some of the slavering gun nuts?
I'm happy to be the 0.43.
0.57 of me is enough for any world anyway. 🙂
Its no excuse for 10 000 of them. How many locations? How many in use in any one incident? How many officers that are able to use them.
No idea.
You seem to be an expert on how many they need though, so what are the answers to those questions ?
Details please.
They have never been used on the mainland, the met had 700 of them - [b] what has changed [/b]that they now need 10 000 of them?
Maybe their policy on usage ?
Quite surprised they didn't run it past you first to be honest.
Quite surprised they didn't run it past you first to be honest.
*Chuckles*
wonder if its corrupt purchasing - someone just made a load of money on this
They're about a quid each!
Maybe their policy on usage ?
If the police have changed the policy on using rubber bullets, I would hope it would be part of a public review to do so, not a secret change.
They have never been used on the mainland, the met had 700 of them - what has changed that they now need 10 000 of them?
record levels of youth unemployment probably being factored in
There about a quid each!
50p if you buy more than 9999 though. Bargain.
Someone has made upwards of £2k on this massive corrupt purchase !!!!
Heads will roll .... Etc ....
Neal - no I can just apply a little simple logic to the situation and clarity of thought.
TJ glad to hear it.
So how many locations do you think they should be stored in then ?
How many in each location ?
How many officers trained to use them ?
How many does each officer need to carry ?
How many will be used in the training of each officer ?
How many per year, per officer to maintain the level of training needed to use them, ?
If the police have changed the policy on using rubber bullets, I would hope it would be part of a public review to do so, not a secret change.
Not a secret.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/revealed-police-plans-to-fire-rubber-bullets-in-london-7575904.html ]Policy info. [/url]
the met had 700 of them - what has changed that they now need 10 000 of them?
I thought we discussed this - that the Home office central stores of riot control equipment (which the police could access whenever they wanted) may have been administritavley transferred to the control of the police - so in fact nothing actually has to have changed, simply a change in accounting so they're on the police books rather than on the Home office books - just as many actually physically in the armouries as there were before, but the paperwork reveals a huge rise.
but, like I said, it couldn't possibly be that simple? could it? That would lead to a significant downturn in tin foil sales, and we can't have that, can we.
Its no excuse for 10 000 of them. How many locations? How many in use in any one incident? How many officers that are able to use them. Its totally OTT
How many rounds needed in training?
Perhaps future deaths could be avoided by having the officers fire off a few of these in training situations?
The Met has over 33,000 officers.
Doesn't seem that unreasonable.
I thought we discussed this - that the Home office central stores of riot control equipment (which the police could access whenever they wanted) may have been administritavley transferred to the control of the polic
May have or have? so you are just as ignorant about this as the rest of us. If we are going for may have's then may'be they were gifted by the moomins in exchange for buttons? could be true and I have just as much proof as you.
As for the person who claimed they cost £1 each, could you please provide some evidence, as I very much doubt that they are that cheap! especially considering the cost of everything else in the arms trade.
May have or have? so you are just as ignorant about this as the rest of us.
Precisley! However, I thought we had all agreed that it was acceptable to "apply a little simple logic to the situation and clarity of thought" 😉
What I have done, is demonstrate that theHome office have a proven and known stock of them, that the police are allowed access to if needed, which is more than you've got for your Moomin hypothesis!
We used to have a massive pile of long riot batons and small round shields in our garage when I was growing up. The batons had been made by a friend of my dad's to supplement the supplies they weren't getting during the miners strike and the shields were from another force and not strictly speaking standard issue where my dad worked. They were transferred officially into supplies at one point which probably doubled the amount of kit the "riot squad" had. In reality the number never changed, just one day they appeared in the inventory.
Its no excuse for 10 000 of them. How many locations? How many in use in any one incident? How many officers that are able to use them. Its totally OTTI am not outraged - I merely point out the stupidity of this and wonder if its corrupt purchasing - someone just made a load of money on this
Given that you don't know how many locations or how many have been or will be used in any incident(s) or how many officers are qualified to use them, you are in no position to say whether this is OTT - that much is obvious. It is also not stupid. There would have been a business case put together for the procurement (it is public money and subject to the same levels of scutiny as any other publically funded purchase) and value for money would have been sought. It provides resilience and ensures the police have sufficient stock to meet whatever happens at fairly low cost. They will have a long shelf life and cost little to store and maintain. So, resilience in place at a sensible time, taking into account recent trouble and future events, at a fairly low cost. Not a lot there to complain about if you understand procurement, logistics, risk management and the fact that policemen need more than wooden sticks these days.
Unless you just want to be outraged about something of course.