It was debated yesterday. Surprise surprise no Tory MPs bothered to show up.
You can read the transcript below :
benpinnick
I cant help but feel like we’ve all been played.
You never struck me as a card carrying conservative?
(the people that voted for her and representing the demographic that's been screwed over the most)
There are many people in much lesser roles in the public and private sector who would be gone at this point.
Pretty much any other organisation would have been put into special measures, wound up completely and had all its executives up in court on fraud and misconduct charges by now...
Well Cummings the 'human hand grenade' wasn't far off the mark.
I cant help but feel like we’ve all been played.
The we is everyone, the players is the conservative party in its entirety. Seems increasingly like a conspiracy just to get bozza back in and somehow make us grateful they did.
You never struck me as a card carrying conservative?
(the people that voted for her and representing the demographic that’s been screwed over the most)
For people who voted Truss, I'd agree. They voted for free market\libertarian approach and that's now been backtracked on.
For people who voted Tory/Boris in the GE, I'd disagree. Boris was always a leader who flowed with the tide - less ideology driven, fairly left-leaning as conservatives go, and more pragmatic - whatever easy decision would keep him in power. With the complete U-turn Liz is much closer to Boris' position (following popular views, pulling tax decisions away from right-leaning, ignoring her idiology) than she was a month ago. Isn't that what tory voters voted for?
Don’t you f****** dare!!! Feel sorry for HER?
Oi, wind your neck in mate. I was taking about someone going through a hard time and looking under severe stress. If you don't have empathy for another human then that's your issue.
Surely if the last 12 years have taught us anything, it’s that it will ALWAYS get worse with this lot
The message the electorate have sent back to the Tories over the past decade+ is that you can have increasingly unserious people as PM. Pretty much all this bunch are sitting there thinking maybe even they could have the job.
Peter Bone for PM!
If you don’t have empathy for another human then that’s your issue.
Empathy and sympathy are often confused. I'd be worried if I lost the ability to feel empathy for someone in distress, even if my reserves of sympathy for that person have run a little dry.
For people who voted Truss, I’d agree. They voted for free market\libertarian approach and that’s now been backtracked on.
It's more than that though. See my post on the Brexit2020 thread.
This is the end game of many, many years of Conservative thinking, and she happened to be the one holding it when the policy grenade finally went off. This represents not only 12 years of concerted effort in power, but back a few decades before. The policies have now been shown to be false, damaging and only of benefit to a few at the top. So yes, we've been had.
The people of our country now pay the price for so much of this.
benpinnick
The we is everyone, the players is the conservative party in its entirety. Seems increasingly like a conspiracy just to get bozza back in and somehow make us grateful they did.
If you look at this from a pure financial perspective then quite simply hundreds of billions have been taken off the 99.999% and transferred to the <<0.001%.
That money has gone ... left the building whatever and whoever comes next.
In terms of pure numbers (not misery or suffering) the typical tory party member has been hit the hardest.
Even assuming whatever percent were at 45% rates you need to be WAY WAY above the threshold for the marginal gains to offset the mortgage, loss of pension and loss of value on any savings.
This say's it better than I can.
I don't have any sympathy for this libertarian, nasty ECG, Brexity monsters.
Oi, wind your neck in mate. I was taking about someone going through a hard time and looking under severe stress. If you don’t have empathy for another human then that’s your issue.
I struggle with empathy towards someone, who in her drive for power has inflicted misery on millions of people.
There are going to households who will not be able to eat and heat this winter. People are going to lose their homes. Businesses are going to go bankrupt, all because she wanted to unchain Britannia.
**** her.
Empathy and sympathy are often confused.
This. The fall she is currently experiencing must be soul destroying. I feel she deserves it though. Not sorry.
She’s off to meet her real lords and masters - the ERG - this afternoon
Expect article 16 to be triggered tomorrow morning as the price for their ‘support’
Don’t you f****** dare!!! Feel sorry for HER? She wanted the top job. She’s lied, schemed, and manipulated to get it. Like the rest of the bastards in government she is in it for herself. She doesn’t care about the misery she has knowingly caused hundreds of thousands of families with more to come. Look at the interview. She only cares about herself still! Feel sorry for her? Go take a long look in the mirror if that is how you truly feel.
She's made her bed & she was utterly unscrupulous in the way she went about it. It is difficult to emote for someone who has such a singular & callous agenda based on ideology rather than common sense, empathy & awareness. I don't feel sorry for her one bit. I doubt she'll ever have to worry about where her next meal is coming from nor be concerned about interest rates & the ability to make her next mortgage payment. She's shown a spectacular lack of human warmth & is lacking in contrition only matched by Johnson himself. Others may feel differently but I'll save my sympathy for those whose problems aren't self-inflicted & aren't so privileged.
I feel she deserves it though
There's a recent Jonathan Pie video where he describes her as the ultimate far-right PM. A useful idiot to the lunatics at IEA who actually "run" her.
Far-right libertarian think tanks with opaque funding who have spent years infiltrating government and the right wing media, years fighting for Brexit in order to get their tax cuts and their ideology of the UK being a sort of deregulated Singapore-on-Thames - and the first sight that budget has of reality, it's been blown to bits.
She was just the moron holding the grenade when it went off in her face, she's too stupid to see she's been played.
oborne's always worth a squiz
Oi, wind your neck in mate. I was taking about someone going through a hard time and looking under severe stress. If you don’t have empathy for another human then that’s your issue.
A human who tried to inflict misery on millions? A human who was happy to take money out of the pockets of those at the bottom to give to the top? A human who will put her own warped ideology over the wellbeing of others? In short, a human who gives not a shit for anyone else.
Nope. No empathy. No sympathy. Nothing but contempt for such a vile creature.
The only way liz will ‘lead’ them into the next GE is if it’s held next week 🤞🤞it’s going to be Pob isnt it ? And he is a really good listener ( prisons and schools for example)but I’m sure there are more that he has pissed off recently TBF they will all get a go soon but gove 🤯🤯
She does look tired and stressed, it's as though she's worried about how to pay her mortgage or put enough food on the table or whether her pension will cover her heating bills or if she'll be made redundant from her public sector job or if her business will fold or how to explain to the right wing ****s that fund her champagne lifestyle that she's royally ****ed it up
Well she apologised this morning on tv so all good now move along please ,yet another excruciating performance.
It could be worse …sir Kieth waiting in the wings😉
So apart from objecting Truss for the sake of objection from the oppositions, what are the main reasons for objecting her policy? A quick bullet points will do as I am trying to make sense.
My objection with her is simply lacking leadership quality. That alone is a no go. I mean if you have a strong leadership quality even with a weak policy etc, the person will still come out smelling like roses.
what are the main reasons for objecting her policy?
Far right libertarian policy which wanted to re-direct more money from the poorest to the richest.
Add in the destruction of hard won workers rights, the complete de-regulation of companies which employ less than 500 people and that alone should be enough for any reasonable person.
what are the main reasons for objecting her policy?
How about uncosted tax cuts worth £billions? Imagine going to the bank & asking for a hefty mortgage & then when asked how will you pay for it responding with the finger & laughing? Imagine the response from the manager. That's basically what's happened. Taken leave from prudent fiscal ideology in trying to balance the books & told the markets "It's you, not me.."
what are the main reasons for objecting her policy? A quick bullet points will do as I am trying to make sense.
Her energy price policy could have been at least partially financed by a windfall tax
Her tax cuts favoured the wealthy at a time when ordinary people are seriously struggling to make ends meet. There is no data to prove that 'trickle down' economics actually works
She failed to consult the OBR or even her own cabinet before implementing the policies
She had no mandate for any of it.
She left VAT where it is, forcing a higher tax burden on the less well off.
Another objection for me is where did her policies originate from- so different from previous approaches.
Led by Donkeys has an opinion which seems plausible. Worth watching all the way through
Another objection for me is where did her policies originate from
Those Tufton St ghouls are still being invited on to TV and radio shows for virtually unchallenged opinion, even though their grubby fingerprints are all over the disaster.
Are labour in any way supported by those tufton st ****ers?
So apart from objecting Truss for the sake of objection from the oppositions, what are the main reasons for objecting her policy? A quick bullet points will do as I am trying to make sense
3 main ones
1. Unfunded borrowing
2. Unfunded borrowing
3. Unfunded borrowing
However its as much about the HOW....
The way this was structured and announced made it clear it was unfunded borrowing that the UK has no intention of ever paying back, hence the panic over gilts by pension funds.
A way to view this is back when you got 95% LTV mortgages so imagine walking into a bank and they ask "how are you going to pay this back" and your answer is "Oh, I'll just borrow more money each month"
Are labour in any way supported by those tufton st ****?
If not those, it'll be others.
On piston heads* they'd be writing the same about the tories being linked to "those great Russell Street ****"
*[many] other forums with a more right leaning membership than here are available.
If not those, it’ll be others.
Such as...?
*"they're all the same" is the strongest weapon that the Tories will try and use to save their arses come an election... it isn't true... it's just a "feeling" that can be spread, and will be spread... don't help them...
That LbD link is depressing, if we had functioning mainstream journalism, I doubt we would have anything like this bit of a mess of a government.
*“they’re all the same” is the strongest weapon that the Tories will try and use to save their arses come an election
Gordon Brown wrecking the economy/notes left in treasury drawers is likely to figure strongly too.
I think it made an appearance in the House yesterday.
1. Unfunded borrowing
Wasn't just about that. The thing that turned it into a crisis was the exposure of pension funds to LDIs. The sequence of events went something like..
1. Mini-budget
2. Fall in the pound due to investor concern about unfunded borrowing and a lack of confidence in whether it would generate the claimed growth.
3. Fall in gilt yields due to a gilt selloff caused by a weakening currency.
Now the above on it's own doesn't constitute a crisis for the govt. It was a problem but they could have ridden this out like they have previous drops in sterling and gilt prices. However then the following happened..
4. Pension funds exposed to LDIs had to liquidate bonds to pay back the LDI issuers (they lost the bet that yeilds whould stay low)
5. Gilt yields dropped further threatening more LDI defaults, and hence a downward spiral ending in collapse of the pension funds.
6. Bank of England steps in to buy bonds and stabilise the gilt market and buy the pension funds time to get out of their LDI exposure.
It was the second group of events that turned this into a crisis the govt couldn't survive. There was an easy solution, which was QE, but for some reason (ideology basically) the BoE and govt refused to start a new round of QE, which meant there was still a 'black hole' in the govt finances due to the tax cuts promises in the MB.
The question now though is why we need austerity to plug the 'black hole'? The short answer is that we don't. The tories are using the opportunity to bring in a new round of austerity, at the behest of 'the markets' so that the city and others can profit from the 'crisis'. As usual, all of us well end up paying (a lot) more, so that a tiny number of rich people can get even richer.
PS. You'll notice the liberal use of inverted quotes. That's because none of these things are really the things they're supposed to describe. I have almost no doubt that much of this was avoidable and was the result of malevolent actors pursuing their own interests. I suspect in the BoE and city, as they are the ones who will profit most out all this.
notes left in treasury drawers
Yeah, Liam Byrne’s sense of humour has a lot to answer for.
It’s pretty clear that Tory MPs have been told to not under any circumstances use the word ‘austerity’. They’ve had the thesaurus out and are using all manner of other words to describe the obviously huge cuts to public services that are coming up in 2 weeks time
‘Financial rectitude’ seems to be the present favourite
A way to view this is back when you got 95% LTV mortgages so imagine walking into a bank and they ask “how are you going to pay this back” and your answer is “Oh, I’ll just borrow more money each month”
Not a very good way to view it though.
Indeed, government borrowing works like that (not like a mortgage at all), new “loans” are always being taken out to pay off old loans. Why? Because unlike your mortgage, the government debt will never be paid off because the country doesn’t need to retire.
If not those, it’ll be others.
Such as…?
Un-elected non-representative bodies with an unhealthy amount of influence on the top of the Labour Party and its policies?
Which of the various trades unions should we start with?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organisations_associated_with_the_Labour_Party_(UK)
Has a nice list too
I appreciate it's all perspective but whether you think there's much difference between momentum and migration watch, or the nine entities and the GMBi is largely down to where you stand.
"That LbD link is depressing, if we had functioning mainstream journalism, I doubt we would have anything like this bit of a mess of a government."
This.
Watching the Andrew Neil show on Sunday where he was taking some new intake Tory MP to task and it occurred to me that the host had done far more to **** the country up than the soon to be gone no-mark politician he was faux roasting.
However I liked how ITV news started their broadcast last night with;
"Jeremy Hunt is running the country."
Accurate, conscise and reassuring to the extent that they were letting the country know that the mad woman was now being controlled, Paul McKenna like by a grown up.
Un-elected non-representative bodies with an unhealthy amount of influence on the top of the Labour Party and its policies?
Which of the various trades unions should we start with?
How about none? It is a requirement of being a trades union leader at any level that one is elected to the post.
Who funds and selects the Tufton Street gangsters?
Why? Because unlike your mortgage, the government debt will never be paid off because the country doesn’t need to retire.
Or more accurately the govt can always - and always does - create more money to pay off previous loans. That's why we have inflation. The entire monetary system is based on the perpetual issuance of debt, because that's all that money is. Honestly if everyone understood this very simple fact we wouldn't have most of the arguments we have on here.
I mean if you have a strong leadership quality
Can't put(in) my finger on where I've heard that before...
I reckon yesterdays trip to the headmasters office went something along the lines off: "Liz, keep your gob shut. Don't frighten the horses (again). Plan for "a new challenge" come the end of January."
dazh
PS. You’ll notice the liberal use of inverted quotes. That’s because none of these things are really the things they’re supposed to describe. I have almost no doubt that much of this was avoidable and was the result of malevolent actors pursuing their own interests. I suspect in the BoE and city, as they are the ones who will profit most out all this.
But ultimately all of that was due to the unfunded borrowing AND how it was presented right down to the lack of OBS report...
I have almost no doubt that much of this was avoidable and was the result of malevolent actors pursuing their own interests. I suspect in the BoE and city, as they are the ones who will profit most out all this.
The BoE doesn't profit as such... obviously there are individuals in the city and outside the UK who have benefited immensely. Indeed, given the half joking "sleeper left winger" stuff about Truss it seems far more likely to me she just got paid to crash the economy pure and simple.
kelvin
Indeed, government borrowing works like that (not like a mortgage at all), new “loans” are always being taken out to pay off old loans.
OK, simplistic but
Individuals and institutions who loan the government money still expect to be paid back and paid back with interest.
Fundamentally that's what market confidence is.
Why? Because unlike your mortgage, the government debt will never be paid off because the country doesn’t need to retire.
OK so ...
I've got a 13yr old... I want to borrow £5M from the bank. They ask "how are you going to pay that back" and I say "oh I expect my kid will get a well paying job or marry well, lets not worry about that"...
They go along and say "OK, can you show us his school reports from the OBS" and I say "sure, loan me the money and I'll show you them in 2 months time", "I don't want to show you his current one as he missed a lot of school after getting sent to child services after crucifying next doors cat and pouring acid over their baby - but he's a sound kid don't worry he was just having a bad day".
New loans are taken out to pay off old loans, that's how it works. Forever. That's how it works when you are a government anyway. Nothing like an individual taking out a mortgage or an unsecured personal loan.
A country is not a 13yr old child. You're welcome.
Now, to recent events... a government simply needs a plan of action... describe what it's going to do... how it will mitigate the effects of its actions. The problem with the "mini budget", is that it just threw in some non-sensical policies to reward the rich without anything to back it up, and without it being properly prepared and scrutinised before putting into action. That's why the OBR was kept at arms length, that's why staff at the Treasury were sacked to avoid them pointing out the problems with what was being proposed, that's why the cabinet weren't even briefed on it. It was an amateurish punt at delivering failed libertarian policies in an economy that was neither big enough or strong enough to withstand such political games.
