I don’t doubt that they can recover to an extent, if they make the right decisions.
'to an extent' is doing some heavy lifting there though.
Last Tory majorities were won on the basis of turning all those red wall seats over, which in turn and whether this thread needs to discuss it extensively again or not, was in no small part down to promises of delivering Brexit and the prosperity that would bring in those places.
Instead we've had a shitshow of Brexit, Covid PPE and App contracts being directed towards mates, champagne toffs partying while our loved ones died, and now bankers bonuses and tax cuts for the rich.
You can reverse the policies but you can't reverse what they'd do if they had the chance, and while you might be able to recover with the traditional tory voter that's temporarily had enough of this fiasco but wants to be convinced back, the red wallers played properly can be brought back to labour en masse. "We get why you wanted to see what they'd offer, but now you've seen it....."
I said in another post yesterday, Labour have a very strong set of cards just now, but how they play them is all important.
Is Hunt now defacto PM?
Is Truss just going to conveniently get Covid or something for a week, allowing Hunt to take over the reigns and go on a damage limitation?
After that, they can come up with some excuse as to why Hunt should be PM without a leadership election?
Gordon Brown lost Labour their winning streak after Blair, remember the bigoted woman comments. John Major lost control of his party (Maastricht) and was considered very dull which lost them the election. Callaghan was AWOL during the winter of discontent, even photographed at Christmas in the Caribbean which was very exotic at the time.
Each time it's been an unpopular leader who took the party down.
Poll tax only upset part of the population, despite it being regressive a lot of people saw it as being fair, each person pays their way was the thought. Lots of people didn't care about the Iraq war or supported it. These may have been big issues but generally only for part of the population. Truss is demonstrably incompetent, following on from Johnson's sleaze and lies and has created an economic melt down that has hit 99% of the population, with many still to feel the full squeeze. I can't see enough forgetting over the next two years, the economy will still be a basket case then as well.
remember the bigoted woman comments.
The very start of Labour failing to read the room.
So you want to pretend that the alleged crass stupidity of voters isn’t something which is repeated over and over again on stw?
No, it's the manner of your posts. That bit is fine ^^
And you claim it’s me that makes it hard to have a reasonable discussion?!?
^^ that bit's not.
to claim that there is nothing the Tories can do because voters won’t forget is just daft.
That's not what I'm claiming. Don't make this such hard work, for goodness' sake. I'm not attacking you I'm just trying to chat about politics.
I think that they can probably win some people back, maybe even quite a few, but there will probably be a fair few votes lost for a long time. And they were already behind in the polls before Truss.
Gordon Brown lost Labour their winning streak after Blair
I don't think so, I think Blair had already done the damage, which is my point really.
Gordon Brown lost Labour their winning streak after Blair
If you look at the GE results it was already spiralling downwards. Blair was already pretty unpopular in 2005 being lucky enough to go against Howard and also having it known he would be going mid parliament hence allowing some to keep voting labour.
As for whether the tories could reinvent themselves in two years with a new leader. Maybe it depends on if they get the press behind them. They are normally fairly good at pretending that they have nothing to do with that other tory government the year before aside from the "good" bits.
Poll tax only upset part of the population
The Tories had similar levels of unpopularity when the poll tax was introduced as they have today.
Scrapping the policy and replacing their leader was sufficient for the Tories to comfortably win the general election a couple of years later.
I don't know how lucky the Tories might get this time if they scrap the mini budget and replace their leader but it is certain that they could reverse a lot of the damage done by both.
The idea that no matter what the Tories do now Labour are certain to have a 20-30% lead when the next general election comes because voters 'won't forget' is completely unrealistic.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-04-01-op-926-story.html
A tax, intended to target the Conservative Party’s enemies, has instead alienated constituencies on all sides.
Opinion polls last weekend showed the Conservatives running from 19% to 38% behind Labor.
A deeply unpopular tax policy cost a Tory PM her job and had to be scrapped. Two years later the Tories won the general election with a majority of 21.
History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.
Hiya,
The question is, if they get rid of Truss, then are we going to endure another 3 months of the conservative associations, the 1922 committee and party to vote another drone in that none of us voted for...
JeZ
The ‘UK’ isn’t particularly united. Scotland hasn’t voted for Tories in my middle aged lifetime, didn’t vote for Brexshit, and perhaps not so obvious in the recent coverage of the KamiKwasi Truster**** tax cuts that precipitated the current crisis, that their unhinged mini budget nonsense tax cuts were just for England. Everyone in the ‘United’ Kingdom get to share the consequences though!
The not so United Kingdom isn’t England. Scotland has from the union had it’s own, and quite distinct from English: Law; Education; Universities; Land access; and culture. Post recent devolution the Scottish parliament has also had responsibilities including tax, spending, and health – underpinned by a fair proportional electoral system which represents everyone. The ‘UK’ media isn’t very good at portraying massive majority support for the SNP in Scotland, and within the first past the post system almost complete SNP dominance of Scottish representation at Westminster. Scotland is currently the third party in the ‘UK’, and on current polling the consequent Tory Collapse would maker Scotland the official opposition to Labour in a ‘United Kingdom’
Well put, and far better than I could've written.
Scotland hasn’t voted for Tories in my middle aged lifetime
1955 was the turning point.
Coffey told civil servants in a meeting last month that she had given leftover antibiotics to a poorly friend
It is hard to believe that this woman is Secretary of State for Health. And scary.
remember the bigoted woman comments.
The very start of Labour failing to read the room.
The shift to labour apologizing to and pandering to racism instead of fighting bigoted misconceptions.
The question is, if they get rid of Truss
The 1922 committee can invent any rules it wants for the election so guess it depends on what they think is less damaging. I wouldnt be surprised if they engineered a leader by acclaim scenario to try and pretend all the infighting has stopped.
The question is, if they get rid of Truss, then are we going to endure another 3 months of the conservative associations, the 1922 committee and party to vote another drone in that none of us voted for…
They can rig it by voting in the parliment rounds for 2 people who get to the final, and one candidate then stands down leaving a defacto winner. No general party vote needed
Is Hunt now defacto PM?
My take was that he's the caretaker PM and party leader... Chancellor in name only.
Truss as continuity Johnson, when faced with difficult questions, is now hiding in a fridge no 10, and to all appearances has lost control of the party.
If you look at the GE results it was already spiralling downwards. Blair was already pretty unpopular in 2005 being lucky enough to go against Howard and also having it known he would be going mid parliament hence allowing some to keep voting labour.
This. Blair took a low % of the vote in 2005 and only won because the Tories were an unelectable rabble.
Coffey is my family's local MP. That she exists as a political entity worries me. That my mother will probably still vote for her is expected ass apparently "that Kier Starmer" is a lot worse than the Tories right now.
At least my Step-father just has misgivings about SKS's ability to hold Labour together if they get into power rather than my mother's rabid distrusts of those communist bastards.
Wake up FFS. The EU issue is dead. There are much bigger problems that need resolving than being able to join the fast queue through passport control and retire to the Costa Brava.
If you can't connect the current issues to Brexit then it most certainly isn't dead just kicked down the road with blinkers on.
At a simple level just dividing stuff into:
1) Direct negative consequence of Brexit
2) Made more negative by Brexit
3) Not affected by Brexit
4) Made more positive by Brexit
5) Direct positive consequence of Brexit
Beyond those who see blue passports as a big win I'm quite honestly struggling to find any 4 or 5 stuff .. even stuff I don't agree with that was seen as a benefit.
FFS even that elusive sovereignty .. what have we got a non-elected PM implementing policies that are not even close to be recognisable from the general election manifesto.
The question is, if they get rid of Truss, then are we going to endure another 3 months of the conservative associations, the 1922 committee and party to vote another drone in that none of us voted for
One single thing that all Tory MPs seem to agree on is that ‘the membership’ (a few thousand senile racists in Eastbourne) are nowhere near the decision about her replacement as they’ll all vote for Suella Braverman after she promises to bring back hanging if they make her PM
implementing policies that are not even close to be recognisable from the general election manifesto.
I don't follow politics much, but isn't that just standard procedure?
Promise any old shit that you think people want to hear to get you in, then just do what you want anyway.
One single thing that all Tory MPs
They are just trying to dodge the fact they are largely to blame. They got to chose which two went forward to the general membership. So it was perfectly possible for them to control the outcome if they werent a bunch of headbangers themselves.
Its a good example of the tories happily reinventing history though and getting people to fall for it. Doesnt bode well for two years time.
If Truss was a sleeper agent whose job was to destroy the Tory party, what would she have done differently?
dissonance
That is based on her being a libdem in her youth.
I heard it on some breakfast TV repeat on YT but it was more a rhetorical question (as illustrated by the presenter guy adding "other than Nuking Birmingham")
I'd take a wider look at Truss than simply her LibDem past... indeed she doesn't ever have seemed to have ANY political convictions or beliefs.
It kinda works so long as you arent concerned about collateral damage which is always a nice term covering some poor sods, or in this case a country, being seriously damaged.
So a Russian plant (as like many of the revolutionary communist party/spike magazine) then sure it makes sense.
I think this is far far simpler and it's down to who could pay her the most...
If you simply assume for the sake of testing this she cares about nobody and nothing but herself then it's far more realistic IMHO than any morality or politically motivated crash the econony.
What has happened is a one off and irreversible transfer of wealth and even if the pound starts to recover the same people will be making even more money from that.
revs1972
implementing policies that are not even close to be recognisable from the general election manifesto.
I don’t follow politics much, but isn’t that just standard procedure?
Promise any old shit that you think people want to hear to get you in, then just do what you want anyway.
No not really .. more
Promise any old shit that you think people want to hear to get you in, then make it look like you are doing it or at least trying.
Truss hasn't even paid lip service to the last GE manifesto... or even tried to look like she is.
Colin from Portsmouth is not happy
https://twitter.com/Exploding_Heads/status/1581552819446099968?t=OSKkIOSo00qJj0FO6WARNQ&s=19
I’d take a wider look at Truss than simply her LibDem past… indeed she doesn’t ever have seemed to have ANY political convictions or beliefs.
If you looked at the plebs chained for the elites benefit aka Britannia Unchained she does have some clear beliefs and has done her best to keep to them. Her alliance with the nontaxpayers alliance and its other faces is one of common cause from what I can see.
Unlike Johnson her beliefs have remained consistent for most of her career.
Unlike Johnson her beliefs have remained consistent for most of her career.
Hmmm
Lib Dem/ Tory
Republican/ Monarchist
Remainer/ Brexiter
The first two were before she started her career as such. Plus if she was on the orange book side of the Libdems its not really a big switch to where she is now
The first two were before she started her career as such. Plus if she was on the orange book side of the Libdems its not really a big switch to where she is now
I agree that she was historically libertarian on economic policy, but I don't think it's true to say that overall, her beliefs have been consistent. Brexit was a pretty big one and not so different from Johnson's infamous "two articles".
Liz Truss was one of Boris Johnson's most loyal Cabinet members, she refused to resign.
And yet as soon as she threw her hat in ring for the leadership contest she undermined some of Johnson's key policies - no Johnson tax increases, tax cuts instead, and lifted Johnson's ban on fracking and Green Belt developments.
I would consider Liz Truss a remarkably inconsistent politician. She doesn't even agree with her own policies of a couple of weeks ago.
Is that a new version of "four candles"
a few thousand senile racists in Eastbourne
Stop it, binners, you'll set ernie off on a tirade again about it could not possibly be racist, because he says so.
I don't really do tirades, I leave that to binners.
because he says so.
I assume that refers to me providing a link to Sky News which shows a YouGov poll of Tory Party members and how they overwhelmingly backed Rishi Sunak at the beginning of the year?
You on the other hand claim that they didn't because, well because you say so.
Hunt now talking.
It's on camera but not being broadcast immediately.
Caretaker PM basically playing UNO reverse on everything Truss/Kwarteng put in. She's in 'Weekend at Bernie's' territory now.
First line of his 'address' is basically a massive rebuke to his boss. It's unsustainable.
Hunt undoing everything. That’s it, isn’t it? She can’t possibly stay on after that.
So to summarise hunts statement
“You know all that stuff Kwasi said the other week? Well forget about all that bollocks as absolutely none of that shit will be happening”
Apparently she is doing the rounds seeing groups of PM's all over the show today to try to keep her job...
Yeah...
Energy price cap down to 6 months. Sounds familiar.
Is there anything left from the mini budget?
Energy price cap down to 6 months. Sounds familiar.
That's the only 'positive' thing Truss had over SKS in last week's PMQs (positive depending whether you think capping costs for all for a prolonged period is right or not)
She's being hung out to dry completely. If Hunt and the rest of them don't finish her in the next couple of days then it's fish in a barrel stuff on Wednesday.
dissonance
If you looked at the plebs chained for the elites benefit aka Britannia Unchained she does have some clear beliefs and has done her best to keep to them. Her alliance with the nontaxpayers alliance and its other faces is one of common cause from what I can see.
Unlike Johnson her beliefs have remained consistent for most of her career.
On the face of it yes but I'm not convinced they are or ever were beliefs ... just a marriage on convenience.
Even a cursory view over Brexit would indicate a 180/360 on the taxpayers alliance ideology.
ErnieLynch
Liz Truss was one of Boris Johnson’s most loyal Cabinet members, she refused to resign.
Et tu Brute ?
And yet as soon as she threw her hat in ring for the leadership contest she undermined some of Johnson’s key policies – no Johnson tax increases, tax cuts instead, and lifted Johnson’s ban on fracking and Green Belt developments.
It seems more accurate to say
Liz Truss passed through part of her career pretending she was one of Boris Johnson’s most loyal Cabinet members and having no morals or beliefs saw no advantage to her resignation.
Having played that to the end played the membership of the party off and stabbing the clown in the back she then sold to the highest bidder.
ransos
Is there anything left from the mini budget?
Billions .. just not in this country anymore.
What intrigues me is how does Jeremy Hunt believe that he himself will survive after he has signed Liz Truss's death certificate?
There is no way that she can survive this. Why would the next PM choose Hunt as their Chancellor?
Liz Truss was one of Boris Johnson’s most loyal Cabinet members, she refused to resign.
She was just slavishly following the formula which states that whoever wields the knife on a sitting Tory PM rarely gains the throne. And so it proved - her 'loyalty' was a plus for her during the leadership election, while Rishi was portrayed as the Kingslayer.
There was little genuine loyalty there. She was just plotting the easiest route to the top job.
Why would the next PM choose Hunt as their Chancellor?
He's trying to create the 'safe pair of hands' persona. Will probably work, too. If, as predicted, Tory MPs are looking to crown someone like Ben Wallace, there's no reason for him to do away with Hunt. Hunt is setting himself up to possibly lead the party not for this election (doomed) but the one after, where the suffering they've unleashed during the current economic crisis may have taken the shine off Labour.
That's Truss's 'holiday from reality' well and truly over 🤣
ernielynch
What intrigues me is how does Jeremy Hunt believe that he himself will survive after he has signed Liz Truss’s death certificate?
Why should he care ??
I mean as in literally.
Why would the next PM choose Hunt as their Chancellor?
Market confidence.
FFS all he has to do is appear half sane and if not he'll be getting plenty of private sector offers.
Is there anything left from the mini budget?
national insurance raise reversed and the stamp duty (the latter is an easy win as it doesn't raise a huge amount of revenue in comparison to other things)
both of those things have effectively already happened, so would be more difficult to reverse
There was little genuine loyalty there.
Of course there was little genuine loyalty, Truss will adapt to changing circumstances to suit her needs. As I said, she is a remarkably inconsistent politician. If there was any doubt the last couple of weeks should have settled the matter.
