It’s an interesting point @dazh Should we be concerned that the (unelected) “markets” can dictate government policy or is that just a statement of a fact that has been true since the dawn of capitalism?
She won because she was more right-wing/libertarian than Sunak. Simples. (& what kelvin said)
She won because the Tory party became UKIP, post-Brexit referendum. The lunatics have taken over the asylum. The power in the party is held by ultra-libertarian headbangers
What Truss has done is exposed their fantasy economics for what it is, to be lobbed in the bin fire that is all the other Brexit bollocks like ‘Global Britain’
The scary thing is that far from being chastened by this, if they remove her they’ll replace her with someone even more unhinged like Braverman or Badenoch
God help us!
It’s an interesting point @dazh Should we be concerned that the (unelected) “markets” can dictate government policy
Tory policy is that the market provides the solution, so it's chicken and egg?
I’m genuinely curious what those who believe in Brexit (for their own reasons) think when presented with facts about real economic harm.
History would suggest something between "short-term pain for long-term gain" and outright denial, with a side order of it all being the fault of remainers for not believing hard enough.
She won because she had her picture taken on a tank and reminded the old farts of Maggie. That and she went AWOL when the Boris pile on happened.
Tory policy is that the market provides the solution, so it’s chicken and egg?
It's the ultimate realisation of free market thinking. Tories sitting there watching the market destroy other peoples' lives, not thinking that eventually it would eventually consume them, too.
Yep, if you 100% believe in free market economy then the market decides what should happen and of course they will always have the best options because it is the 'market'.
This goes a bit wrong when a free market believer finds out that the market doesn't like what they are doing. Truss should have spun it to say as a true believer the market has told her what is required and she will do that.
into Johnson.
boomerlives Free Member
Ernie’s touching belief that it couldn’t possibly be racisms probably just shows he is more prepared to think better of old Tories than I am.
Of course racism could possibly have played a part in the Tory leadership elections, but because I believe something is possible it doesn't mean that it is true.
My "touching belief" is based on the YouGov poll published by Sky News which showed that at the beginning of the year Rishi Sunak was by far the favourite among Tory Party members to become party leader, I have already suggested why his fortunes might have changed - tax scandal, fixed penalty, aggressive debating.
Obviously you believe that your own personal research on the matter boomerlives trumps YouGov's poll of Tory Party members and that Sunak has never enjoyed huge support within the party. Perhaps you could come up with some convincing figures and explain your methodology?
It is clear that these days Tory cabinets are full of black and brown faces, out of the 8 candidates for the last Tory leadership contest 4 of them had brown faces. The last two Home Secretaries have had brown faces, the previous three Chancellors of the Exchequer have had brown faces, but you ignore your eyes and stick to an outdated stereotype of the Tory Party based on 40 years ago.
In the meantime the first brown/black UK prime minister is actually more likely to be a member of the Tory Party than the Labour Party. The possible Tory contenders for that accolade are fairly easy to list, with the Labour Party you would struggle to create a list of 2, tbh you would be lucky to think of just one.
the EU has shrunk as a percentage of the world’s economy
Shrunk at a level commensurate with losing the worlds 5th largest economy ?
Genuine question btw, I’m so against every aspect of Brexit I am incapable of seeing any positive and am therefore not impartial
Yeah sorry about that, it must be very frustrating for you. The reality is that the UK has moved on, it has left the EU and it simply won't be rejoining, so whether is was a good or bad idea is irrelevant, a fact which even the staunch Remainer Labour leader now fully accepts. But by all means carry on throwing statics around if it makes you feel better, it won't do any harm other than distract attention away from real issues.
It’s the ultimate realisation of free market thinking.
But would it be any different with any other party in government? Can any government survive if it loses the confidence of the markets?
All this diversity is lovely jubbly but politics is about social class. The skin colour or sexual orientation of the person who raises your rent or mortgage or criminalises your ability to strike or protest is a bit ephemeral. It may well be in times of crisis racists in the tories elect these people to do the dirty work for them.
it simply won’t be rejoining
No not for awhile, but it is a real possibility longer term.
whether is was a good or bad idea is irrelevant,
See the point above and whether it was good or bad says a lot about the people who pushed the country into it. Obviously we all (sane people anyway) know it was bad, monumentally bad, which gives us some insight into the competence of people who backed it.
The reality is that the UK has moved on
You can keep saying that but it doesn't make it true. Do you think if remain had won the Brexiteers would have shut up? It's a bit like that once in a generation referendum that settled the Scottish independence debate.
It may well be in times of crisis racists in the tories elect these people to do the dirty work for them.
Absolutely. Although I'm not even sure that there needs to be even a crisis. They also have a similar attitude towards who are not necessarily representative of the ruling elite - if you are willing the Tories will find a role for you, whatever your class or colour.
The reality is that the UK has moved on
You can keep saying that but it doesn’t make it true.
Yeah it is true. Whether the UK should or should not stay/be in the EU is no longer issue. It is those who are pretending that it is still an issue who are in denial, not me.
How many motions on EU membership were debated at last month's Labour Party National Conference?
Whether the UK should or should not stay/be in the EU is no longer issue.
Agreed. What is an issue is whether we pretend that the damage leaving has caused hasn’t happened… if you keep saying “ignore it”, while it is real, large, restrictive and omnipresent for working people (I can see it not being an issue for well off pensioners), then the political will to help people overcome, repair or mitigate the problems they are facing simply won’t be there. And by political will I’m referring to voters and well as politicians. We’re coming up to another round of campaigning and voting (who knows how soon) where any attempts to look at the issues Brexit has made live will be painted by many as “Brexit is at risk”, rather than “Brexit has happened, there’s still a hell of a lot of work the government needs to do because of it, workers and employers alike can’t sort it without politicians showing the will and making the effort to engage with it”. Come an election Brexit will still be an issue… do we let the Conservatives keep pushing us further away from cooperation with other nations, or build stronger relations with them? Starting with Ireland. The place of Northern Ireland as regards both GB and whole Ireland arrangements needs serious politicians willing to do the graft, and the diplomacy, and who are willing to compromise. As it has in the past, Northern Ireland needs a UK Labour government. Now.
Tory policy is that the market provides the solution, so it’s chicken and egg?
It’s the ultimate realisation of free market thinking. Tories sitting there watching the market destroy other peoples’ lives, not thinking that eventually it would eventually consume them, too.
They aren’t the first:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/10/16/the-first-free-market-reform-00061230
ernielynch says 'The reality is that the UK has moved on, it has left the EU and it simply won’t be rejoining'
like gravel in your eyes.
The 'UK' isn't particularly united. Scotland hasn't voted for Tories in my middle aged lifetime, didn't vote for Brexshit, and perhaps not so obvious in the recent coverage of the KamiKwasi Truster**** tax cuts that precipitated the current crisis, that their unhinged mini budget nonsense tax cuts were just for England. Everyone in the 'United' Kingdom get to share the consequences though!
The not so United Kingdom isn't England. Scotland has from the union had it's own, and quite distinct from English: Law; Education; Universities; Land access; and culture. Post recent devolution the Scottish parliament has also had responsibilities including tax, spending, and health - underpinned by a fair proportional electoral system which represents everyone. The 'UK' media isn't very good at portraying massive majority support for the SNP in Scotland, and within the first past the post system almost complete SNP dominance of Scottish representation at Westminster. Scotland is currently the third party in the 'UK', and on current polling the consequent Tory Collapse would maker Scotland the official opposition to Labour in a 'United Kingdom'
The 'UK' isn't. The country is so far from moving on from the Brexit disaster. No one is going to forget, not even the Brexshitter faithful slowly realising that shit really does mean shit.
Hope that helps ernielynch!
If not I quite like both of these:
Part of 'moving on' is accepting that it's happened, for sure. The other part, is accepting that it has caused all sorts of harm and hardship and continues to do so. And while there is absolutely a need for the nation to start to work together again towards a common good, it's hard to do that from a starting point where a substantial proportion of the people running this for now have fingers in ears and are pretending we're in sunlit uplands.
Accept where we are, in a shitshow and then we can start to work on making decisions that mitigate or even reverse.
Can we get this back on track I believe this site has a rather large Brexit thread.
Crispin Blunt a high ranked Tory MP is the first to call for her to do one.
Will the rank and file Tory MPs start a battle plan Monday morning??
Yes she is partly here because of Brexit but that's not the focus of her incompetent actions
Made a couple of passes of chequers today, good to see some demonstrators out and about letting Lizz know what they think 👍
The not so United Kingdom isn’t England.
My part of England voted comprehensively for Labour and to remain in the EU. Please stop treating us as if we're all the same.
Will the rank and file Tory MPs start a battle plan Monday morning??
Peston is reporting that she’ll be handed the whiskey and the service revolver next week
https://twitter.com/peston/status/1581621977067814913?s=46&t=yRczMbY1W3N3iUONu1Kjqg
Is it time for her team to start moving on already…?
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1581690371788410881?s=21
There’s no way Truss and Coffey can get pro-tobacco changes past MPs now, so little point him hanging around. Will he jump?
Pro tabacco...
We are being pranked aren't we. It's the first time since anti hunting I will be out one streets if she carries on.
My part of England voted comprehensively for Labour and to remain in the EU. Please stop treating us as if we’re all the same.
My part of England is firmly Tory but we voted remain.
Peston is reporting that she’ll be handed the whiskey and the service revolver next week
I would have thought that her resignation will be announced sometime next week. As Peston says there is no possible route to redemption so her sacking/resignation is now a certainty.
The damage it is doing the Tory Party makes delaying the inevitable pointless. It has been suggested that an uncontested replacement could make the whole process of a leadership change occur in no longer than a week. That must be an extremely attractive proposition for a good many Tory MPs.
Unity is likely to be a serious issue though, the most effective way to unite the Tory Party imo would be for the new leader to call a snap election. In all probability the Tories would lose it but if the new leader has enough public appeal, and the Tories are very lucky, it might result in a hung parliament.
My understanding is that current conversations are not about if she goes but when and how the succession will be handled. Possibly Wallace, Mordaunt and Sunak will be voted on by MPs, with an agreement that when it gets to the final two then the one with the least votes will step down to stop the party faithful getting a vote (for obvious reasons).
Although it might be the honourable thing to do, I can't see there being a general election, current polling has them returning with 4 seats. 4!!!
Wallace needs to stay where he is in defense he seams to have the grasp the Ukraine situation. If the Tory's want to remain relevant. They are going to need a Tony Blair type and they just don't have one.
And huge fu@king sorry. The current tory front bench is corrupt for want of a better word
I live in a true blue area (Sunak's constituency) but I voted remain and also vote labour. Even here though I have heard local farmers saying the tory party is now unelectable. They'll probably still vote for them though..........
The public doesn't really know Mordant so with that in mind I can see large numbers of 2019 Tory voters being enticed back by someone like her.
The current 30+ Labour lead is overwhelmingly down to Truss and her disastrous mini budget, if a new Tory leader plays their cards right and they have a fair amount of luck, and a united party behind them, it is reasonable to assume that the Labour lead could be reduced to single figures and be sufficient for either a hung parliament or a tiny unstable Labour majority.
Labour have only led in the polls when the Tories have been disunited. Things could change very quickly, as indeed they have recently - no one a couple of months ago predicted this current political chaos.
Things could change very quickly
Do you think people will forget that quickly?
They should get Keir Starmer to take over as PM.
Does anyone else think the right-wing press wanted her in knowing she would fail (in a year or so) and then try and sell the tories Bozo again, though she has failed spectacularly quicky that this would not now be a feasible plan. This could also be why they are so desperate to still clear Bozos name from misleading parliament. Anyway aside from the current damage to the country it is great watching them fight like rats in a sack.
Do you think people will forget that quickly?
I am sure that everyone will remember Liz Truss and her disastrous mini budget which rewarded the rich for being rich during a cost of living crises.
What is your point - that the 30% Labour leads of the last couple of weeks is now the new norm and there is nothing that the Tories can do to reverse it?
Some people need a good dose of reality if they think the next general will result in Labour on over 50% of the vote and the Tories on less than 25%.
I would gladly give my right arm to see a result like that but all the dreaming in the world won't make it happen.
For a forum which is the vehicle for endlessly rants concerning the alleged crass stupidity of voters I am somewhat taken back by this sudden new faith expressed by some in an apparent tsunami of support for Labour come the next general election.
ernie - go away for a lie down; you might feel better for it.
They are going to need a Tony Blair type and they just don’t have one
So do Labour.
I think Labour just need to keep the message out there that SKS is a decent honest guy, unlike all the shysters and crooks that have come and gone in Government in the past 6 or so years.
For a forum which is the vehicle for endlessly rants concerning the alleged crass stupidity of voters I am somewhat taken back by this sudden new faith expressed by some in an apparent tsunami of support for Labour come the next general election.
Mate, really.. it's really hard to have a reasonable discussion on here when faced with this kind of hyperbole. And you're even on the same side as me.
What is your point – that the 30% Labour leads of the last couple of weeks is now the new norm and there is nothing that the Tories can do to reverse it?
My point is that I think Truss has damaged the party further, and it will be hard for them to regain credibility. They have been badly run for ages, but Boris managed to win people over with charm. Without the charm they are exposed as having little else. And each time they fight a leadership contest it makes them look worse. And this one was a bad one.
Parties' winning streaks always come to an end. The Winter of Discontent did for Labour, the Poll Tax did for the Tories, the War did for New Labour, and Truss will do for these Tories. Something else will do for Starmer one day.
As for Ben Wallace.
Definitely seems the least worst of a to be honest total.shower of sh111t. Now what would you do in his shoes? Take the doubly poisoned chalice knowing for sure it'll be his political death in less than 2 years.
(The coming recession and grim grim winter for millions is already baked in. The only debate is how much worse can Truss etc make it).
He'd be better off trying to stay where he is (and seems to be at least not ****ing up Ukraine), keep some stability on that front, and for him look to become the leader once they are in opposition, with 5 years to regroup - with a chunk of the current tory imbeciles out after the next election.
Mate, really.. it’s really hard to have a reasonable discussion on here when faced with this kind of hyperbole. And you’re even on the same side as me.
So you want to pretend that the alleged crass stupidity of voters isn't something which is repeated over and over again on stw? And you claim it's me that makes it hard to have a reasonable discussion?!?
Yes Truss and her mini budget has seriously damaged the Tories which is why firstly the opinions polls of the last couple of weeks have been giving Labour leads not seen the poll tax, and secondly why the mini budget is being dismantled and why the Tories will almost certainly get rid of Truss soon.
I have no idea why you think it is impossible for the Tories to recover significantly from this situation. No one can know what the situation will be in a month or two, the best we can do is guess.
And the examples you provide offer very little in terms of clues. In fact two didn't even result in any electoral setbacks:
Parties’ winning streaks always come to an end. The Winter of Discontent did for Labour, the Poll Tax did for the Tories, the War did for New Labour, and Truss will do for these Tories. Something else will do for Starmer one day.
The Winter of Discontent did indeed result in a Labour government losing a general election, but Labour had only been in power five years so hardly an end to a "winning streak".
The poll tax, the last time Labour had such large leads in the opinion polls, did not end the Tories winning streak - they went on to win the following general election with a comfortable majority.
And wars in Afghanistan and Iraq did not end New Labour's winning streak - New Labour went on to comfortably win a general election years after starting both wars. Labour's defeat in 2010 had nothing to do with the wars.
Truss and her mini budget has seriously damaged the Tories, as the poll tax did, but to claim that there is nothing the Tories can do because voters won't forget is just daft. No one forgot the poll tax and yet the Tories went on to win the following general election because it simply wasn't an issue anymore.
In all probability the mini budget and Truss will soon also no longer be an issue. How much they will recover from the damage I have no idea, but I don't doubt that they can recover to an extent, if they make the right decisions.
GE in the UK can be broken down to two choices. More of the same, or Time for a change. I think the electorate has probably decided the latter is a better choice. Truss' zealotry of far right economic ignorance was both a symptom and the cause of the Tories dismal failure since and was always going to end in humiliation. The Tories have come to resemble a sect, and the failures and lies about Brexit have solidly come home to roost, the financial markets have shattered any delusions that breaking with Europe and our self imposed isolation by English fundamentalists was ever going to result in more prosperity and influence in the world.
2 years is a long time and the tories could easily win the next election. Liz Truss will be long forgotten and people who always vote tory will continue to vote tory.
They are not going to vote Labour however much they don't like what the tory party is getting up to as they just couldn't do it, very much in the same way that I could absolutely never vote Tory whatever the circumstances.
At best they would just not vote at all but it would take a lot of them to take that stand.
In all probability the mini budget and Truss will soon also no longer be an issue. How much they will recover from the damage I have no idea, but I don’t doubt that they can recover to an extent, if they make the right decisions.
IMHO I think it will be how lucky they get with the cost of living crisis and the news cycle over it. if the mortgage rate causes more issues,repos and bank defaults and that’s all you hear in the news is doom and gloom I don’t think anything they do will save them.
And that’s without them not having any major corruption/sleaze scandals really sticking.
