[Closed] Light sensors cause religious row

Surely the hallway lights aren't run from their flat so they are not going to burn in hell for this?

they won't burn in hell anyway as they don't believe in it

Good stuff! Excuse my ignorance of religion, what do Jewish people believe happens if they are bad?

they have to spend an eternity with woody allen*

*i have no idea

Goods, facilities and services should be provided with regard to the religion or belief of people using them. The landlord refused to do so.

I'm glad this isn't the usual 'only criminals and terrorists get to have human rights' bollocks that usually makes the headlines.

Your case would be a weak one, Flaperon.

* neither do they.....

ooooooooo!

Deep sigh
Is this really worth going to court over.
If your second home home offends thee, sell it and get another.

they won't burn in hell anyway as they don't believe in it

and it's not there anyway...
Though actually hell sounds more interesting than heaven :o)
Eternal peace with no conflict or intrigue ? BOR-ING:-(

Amazing really that the Torah not only predicted electric lights, but laid down rules governing their use.

surely all they're doing is radiating heat; the lights then switch themselves on ?

Actually all they are doing is disturbing the reflection the detector is sensing? But still I am sure the texts cover this...

Gordon and Dena Coleman need to get a ****ing grip.

Do they really think that God (or whatever their variant is) wants them to be such petty whining ****s. 🙄

It must be a slow news day.... [i]New motion sensor causes elderly couple to fear a fictional book....[/i]

Goods, facilities and services should be provided with regard to the religion or belief of people using them.

Why?

Can somebody clarify for me - reading that article they have no objection to the lights being left on (as they were before), simply to them having some part in switching them on and off? Makes me wonder how you could make an override switch that didn't switch some electrical circuit or other - or is the idea simply that the lights are left switched on all sabbath?

I do hope they haven't got a thermostat on their fridge (or a light in it) - I'm assuming here they have no objection to having a fridge left switched on?

How come no one has yet suggested that they should bugger off back to Israel if they don't like it here ?

And didn't we help to drive the Palestinians off their lands so that Jews could have their own homeland
anyway ?

Sometimes I don't know why we bothered 😕

The Cal mac ferry to Lewis is leaving shortly...space for two. A couple of days up there and they'll be installing disco lights in their flat.

porterclough - Member

Goods, facilities and services should be provided with regard to the religion or belief of people using them.

take out the words "using" and "them" and substitute " who are not intelligent enough to realise their religion is a nonsense"

Damn. I'm impressed that a religion could be so forward thinking to mandate that electrical lights & devices can't be used on holidays.
Amish stuff I can figure - they just stated that anything new is evil. But this is quite specific eh.

I'm sure some of these nutters would try and convice us that the world is flat if they thought they could get away with it.

My religion prevents me turning hallway and stairwell lights off during hours of darkness when I wish to move about. If I disobey and they are turned off, my god punishes me with stubbed toes, grazed knees and if I am really bad a tumble down the stairs.

porterclough - Member

Goods, facilities and services should be provided with regard to the religion or belief of people using them.

Why?

It's the [url= http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1082203061&r.l1=1073858787&r.l3=1074003268&r.lc=en&r.t=RESOURCES&r.i=1075201493&r.l2=1073877851&r.s=e ]law[/url].

Let's hope this thread doesn't evolve into the standard 'religionists are WRONG!' doggerel that periodically pops up on STW like an unflushable floater.

The law also protects people from unfair treatment on the grounds of any lack of religion. So if Spongebob's landlady refused to fix the lights because she said he was 'godless', he could bring a claim if he so wished. It's worth pointing out that's all the Jewish couple have done. It hasn't been heard yet.

[i]pops up on STW like an unflushable floater[/i]

You can call me Mr. Hanky.

This includes making, transferring or adding fuel to a fire. This is one of the few Shabbat prohibitions mentioned explicitly in the Torah Exodus 35:3*. Many poskim ground their prohibition of operating electrical appliances in this melakha.

This prohibition also was (and in many circles, still is) commonly understood to disallow operating electrical switches. When actuating electromechanical switches that carry a live current, there is always the possibility that a small electric spark will be generated. This spark is classified as a kind of fire. However, as science became more advanced, and the properties of fire and electricity became better understood, this reasoning broke down: fire is a chemical reaction involving the release of energy; the flow of an electric current is a physical reaction. Therefore, some hold that the proper reason it is forbidden to complete electric circuits is because it involves construction or building

[b]*3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.'[/b]

Going to great lengths to make life awkward for themselves and others. The true sign of faith.

Have they not 'seen the light'?

I'm surprised nobody's made an irrelevant reference to Darwin yet.

I'm sure some of these nutters would try and convice us that the world is flat if they thought they could get away with it.

That [i][b]nearly[/i][/b] does it but not quite.

The STW floater bobs on.

The law also protects people from unfair treatment on the grounds of any lack of religion. So if Spongebob's landlady refused to fix the lights because she said he was 'godless', he could bring a claim if he so wished. It's worth pointing out that's all the Jewish couple have done. It hasn't been heard yet.

Except that's not the same is it. Having lights that work is a basic feature/safety issue.

Never mind the fact that lights that switch on automatically are good for the environment and will save them and others in the flats money. No, let's ignore that because a magic man in the sky wrote a book 2000 years ago (or whatever their story is) forbidding it.

I don't care if people choose to believe whatever they like (however silly), it's just when they start trying to impose their views on other people that gets my goat.

Goods, facilities and services should be provided with regard to the religion or belief of people using them.

Which religion?

According to David Barrett and team, there are 19 major world religious groupings in the world which are subdivided into a total of about 10,000 distinct religions. Of the latter, there were 270 religions and para-religions which had over a half million adherents in the year 2000 CE. Within Christianity, they have identified 34,000 separate groups (denominations, sects, individual unaffiliated churches, para-church groups, etc) in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations." 1

Surely at some point we must accept that they have no basis and stop diverting scarce resources to support them.

What if different family members have different beliefs? How far should we go as a society?

I thought electricity was kosher these days anyhoo...

I'm thinking of getting into religion - I have 2 work colleagues (one jewish the other ? - 7th day adventist I think) who insist that every Friday they have to leave work early (in daylight hours) as they can't burn fuel in their cars / or turn lights on and must be home before it is dark....

Amazing what some people get away with.

How come no one has yet suggested that they should bugger off back to Israel if they don't like it here ?

Because the article wasn't in the Daily Mail.

the more conservative have contrived to keep it banned on sabbath it would seem...

as science became more advanced, and the properties of fire and electricity became better understood, this reasoning broke down: fire is a chemical reaction involving the release of energy; the flow of an electric current is a physical reaction. Therefore, some hold that the proper reason it is forbidden to complete electric circuits is because it involves construction or building

some people obviously enjoy inconvenience. That should be their prerogative. It shouldnt effect anyone else around them though.

How far should we go as a society?

And at one point does someone's deeply held convictions start to count as religious beliefs which have to be accommodated? If I felt strongly that windows were the work of Satan, could I insist that they be removed from my place of work as it was discriminating against me? Or should I instead be referred to mental health services?

Might be handy for taxi drivers if the court finds for.....

Alf Blackcab - you are accused of charging 500 pounds for a 7 mile taxi journey - what do you have to say
- well guv, it was only 7 miles but as the jouney started at 5 to midnight on saturday I had to switch off after 5 minutes, and then there was the 24 hours wiating time ..............

How come no one has yet suggested that they should bugger off back to Israel if they don't like it here ?

Because they are white and have a nice English sounding name?

[i]This prohibition also was (and in many circles, still is) commonly understood to disallow operating electrical switches. When actuating electromechanical switches that carry a live current, there is always the possibility that a small electric spark will be generated.[/i]

Pendantically, you'll get the spark when you break the circuit rather than make it. So you're ok switching lights on on the sabbath, providing you don't switch them off.
*Edit - though I now see the argument is more subtle. God is so complex sometimes.

Presumably for similar reasons, they don't where nylon underwear for fear of static build up 🙂

but as the jouney started at 5 to midnight on saturday...

Stoner.
Then Mercury operated swithces would be tickety boo then, no 'spark' you see.

So - does my local pub have to stop serving alcohol during Ramadan in case it offends Muslims who may be there having a quiet glass of lemonade?

Or is it up to religionists to check that they don't put themselves on situations at odds with their religious customs?

Do you think they drive down on Friday night?

oldgit - as I quoted, I dont think they care about sparks anymore. Just to be awkward they now seem to consider completing a circuit is akin to "building" which is bad and naughty. So naughty!

does my local pub have to stop serving alcohol during Ramadan

How does that work then? or is this MailWorld and I'd forgotten.

Maybe, but it is a valid question.

As I understand based on that one article it would seem a similar analogy imo.
The couple want to alter the lighting arangement of a communal service to fit there personal religous dogma.
Their argument for wanting them changed seems flawed anyway. These lights appear to be out of their control and not switched on by them, and it seems no different to wanting a 3rd party such as neighbor not to switch lights on and off.

Surely they can just remove the light bulbs? problem solved.

Surely they can just remove the light bulbs? problem solved.

That would impact on the safety of others using the communal area and I would deem as vandalism.

Suggestions of stopping pubs selling alcohol during Ramadan is knee jerk, right wing ignorance. Muslim colleagues of mine don't expect me to stopping eating or drinking during daylight hours.

My take on this was that the OP wasn't suggesting that this was the thin end of the wedge and Muslims were going to start to demand this, but was pointing out that they don't make such requests because it's daft.

Suggestions of stopping pubs selling alcohol during Ramadan is knee jerk, right wing ignorance. Muslim colleagues of mine don't expect me to stopping eating or drinking during daylight hours.

Because it does not happen in practice still makes it a valid question given the law referred to on the previous page.
My point is that the law is misguided.

Oh Ian - you're so sensible 🙂

Suggestions of stopping pubs selling alcohol during Ramadan is knee jerk, right wing ignorance.

And its not ignorance so you may want to modify your tone.

The residents association where they live have offered to fit a manual switch so the lights could be left on for them, but the couple would then have to pay their legal expenses themselves. If they win the case, they don't pay... [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/8103581.stm ]here[/url]

[i]Suggestions of stopping pubs selling alcohol during Ramadan is knee jerk, right wing ignorance. Muslim colleagues of mine don't expect me to stopping eating or drinking during daylight hours.[/i]

It does happen in practice. In my own experience: at my "leaving do" from my last job, no alcohol was served at dinner at the request of a Muslim colleague observing Ramadan.

why have they made it out the door? if they are supposed to do nothing, why have they even got out of bed?

and I believe that if there is a light in a dark hallway that it should be on to save me falling on the stairs - thats my belief and I'm sticking to it, self-preservationist

[url=

don't ride in a car[/url]
(NSFW)

no alcohol was served at dinner at the request of a Muslim colleague observing Ramadan

why have they made it out the door? if they are supposed to do nothing, why have they even got out of bed?

I think it's something to do with "eruvs" and homes and stuff...let me go find the Wiki entry on it. I remember something about one in golders green being the largest in Europe or something when I lived up that way...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/living/eruv_1.shtml

[i]I trust that they didn't eat anything before dusk? [/i]

Correct. Or at least before 8pm which was the arbitrarily chosen "official dusk" in this part of the world.

From Stoner's link

A community Eruv (Hebrew: ????? mixture, also transliterated as Eiruv or Erub, plural: Eruvim) refers to the legal aggregation or "mixture" under Jewish religious property law of separate parcels of property meeting certain requirements into a single parcel held in common by all the holders of the original parcels, which enables Jews who observe the traditional rules concerning Shabbat to carry children and belongings anywhere within the jointly held property without transgressing the prohibition against carrying a burden across a property line on the Jewish sabbath. The legal aggregation is set up to have effect on the Sabbath day only; on other days of the week, including Yom Tov (with the exception of Yom Kippur), ordinary property ownership applies. A valid aggregation has a number of requirements including an agreement among the property-holders and an aggregation ritual.
One of the requirements of a valid aggregation is that all the parcels must lie within a chatzer, or walled courtyard. For this reason, this type of aggregation is more properly known as an eruv chatzerot (Hebrew: ???? ??????), an "aggregation of courtyards," to distinguish it from other types of rabbinically-ordained mixture procedures which also have the name eruv.
In modern times, when housing is not typically organized into walled courtyards, rabbinic interpretation has permitted this requirement to be met by creating a continuous wall or fence, real or symbolic, surrounding the area to be aggregated. The fence is required to have certain properties and consist of structural elements such as walls or doorframes. When the fence is symbolic, the structural elements are often symbolic "doorframes" made of wire, with two vertical wires (often connected to utility poles) and one horizontal wire on top connecting them (often using utility wires). The use of symbolic elements permits an eruv to make use of utility poles and the like to enclose an entire neighborhood of a modern city within the legal aggregation. In contemporary Jewish discourse, "an eruv" frequently refers to this symbolic "fence" which creates and denotes the boundaries of a symbolic "walled courtyard" in which a halakhicly (religiously) valid property aggregation can take place, rather than to the aggregation or legal status of the properties.

Seriously, if I started coming out with this kind of stuff, and it didn't have the supposed legitimacy lent by being called a religion, I would be sectioned.

I think we are missing the point.

Even as an Atheist I have little interest in peoples beliefs and I will form my own opinions on their basis in fact and will form a view of the holder.
However when individuals who hold these beliefs benefit financially then we need to ask ourselves some serious questions about the role religion plays in our society.
Given the tough choices made daily by politicians regarding the distribution of scarce financial resources. I think it is wrong that religion (in any form) benefits disproportionately and by definition at the expense of more deserving causes such as health care and education.

i was under the impression that they wernt allowed to switch on the lights on the sabbath as it was seen as "work"

but having a light that switches itself on would be fine surely :S

and doing whatever it is the involves leaving the flat on the sabbath isnt work?

this is of course as i recall from what i was taught by "Nige" in RE at school, so possibly utter toss

I think we need to ask -
What would Jesus do?

thats crap - its manual work or labour thats 'banned' on the sabbath (saturday to them) - Ive been to israel loads of times and never seen an orthodox jew not turn a light on when it was dark - on saturdays most of the lifts in israel just stop at every floor so they dont have to press the button - an automatic light is probably used in half of israel on saturday in winter...(which by the way is around 20 degrees)

All this proves to me is that religious fundamentalists of all flavours are just that : Mentalists!

IMHO, we should repatriate all animals kept in zoos and research institutes and substitute them with this type of zealot, then we can experiment to find the cause of this lunacy and deepen the shallow end of the gene pool by eradicating them. In the meantime we can enjoy ourselves by imitating them boorishly and throwing peanuts at them.

Sorted.

an automatic light is probably used in half of israel on saturday in winter...(which by the way is around 20 degrees)

I've got nothing at all against religion - I reckon people should have the right to believe what they want to and practice in any way which doesn't impact on other people. However if they want to live in the normal world with other people they have to accept some things in the normal world - if they want the stairs in the block of flats to conform to their beliefs then they should go and live in a Jew only block of flats. How about I set up a religion which mandates the use of automatic light switches and go and buy the flat next door to them. I reckon the least they deserve is a huge legal bill - if they win and dump the legal bill on their neighbours I can't see them being very popular.

they don't have to live there, surely?

thomthumb - Member
they don't have to live there, surely?

seems the switches went in AFTER they got there

The idea of a "jew only block of flats" seems basically sound, but I think we need to work on the branding a little.

There is a reason that Amish live in their own little clumps, presumably it does make everyhting rather easier. 🙂

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few

I cant believe we are discussing this issue and trying to understand how their belief works or could work.

We should be educating these people so they can see its all just make believe.

We should not support, encourage or make allowance for any religion. For example - on the one hand society has finaly grown up and realised homosexuals and women deserve respect and equal status yet we then have to respect religious believers who deny any respect to these two groups.

Its a flipping fairy tale, there should not be laws forcing us to respect made up beliefs. The law should encourage them to wake up and realise there is no god no heaven and no hell. (unless your a singlespeeder of course)

The law should encourage them to wake up and realise there is no god no heaven and no hell.

What sort of law would that be?!

BTW, I assume Jewish prostitutes aren't allowed to ply their trade on the Sabbath but are they allowed to give it away for free?

as long as they're not "working". So i guess that means they can't go on top? 🙂

Trimix - Member
..........the one hand society

Tell me more, I'm interested to know more of this, I am fully equipped and ambidextrous, but given that due to a minor [ahem] "kit impairment" one hand is in fact plenty. Also is it my hand or that of another, (possibly slender) individual?? Which day of the week is the special day, as Sunday and Wednesday are out of the equation, being as they are, riding days.

Further info welcome 8)

The idea of a "jew only block of flats" seems basically sound

yeah, lets invade a nice predominantly mulsim area and build it there without their permission. then we can slowly but surely start stripping the surrounding locals of their human rights.

all for the greater good obviously.

😕

And the line is now astern and receding fast. 🙄

I thought I'd be the first to mention Godwin's Law on this thread, but it seems that point has been passed with

The idea of a "jew only block of flats" seems basically sound

Ah well...

I think the point is not that they should be forced into their own block of flats, but that these difficulties might be alleviated somewhat if people who are so orthodox did pool their resources. I suspect 80% or more of jews in Bournemouth do not have this problem, and therefore do not "cause a religious row" over environmentally-friendly light switches. Those who do, while they are entitled to do and think whatever they want might find their lives easier if they had their own hallway with Sabbath compliant light switches. 🙂

but that these difficulties might be alleviated somewhat if people who are so orthodox did pool their resources. I suspect 80% or more of jews in Bournemouth do not have this problem

If we ceased any funding then I wonder how many would become slightly less observant and more pragmatic?
Does funding increase the degree of observance in some areas?

Hehehehehe

[i]They also said that their solicitors told them they had a strong claim.[/i]

Their solicitors are hardly going to say "actually you haven't the slightest chance of winning so you might as well not give us loads of money after all", are they?