[Closed] Libor trader Jailed

So if you take all the crooked bankers, then you divide the prison time handed out, on average they'll have copped for a few seconds each?

I doubt anyone's even remotely bricking it

Aye true Binners but you have to start somewhere.

At least he didn't use the Alzheimer's defence.

I just wonder what the poor bastard did to end up as the fall guy for an entire institutionally corrupt industry?

Must have majorly pissed somebody important off to be the one poor mug to end up the wrong side of the 'all bankers operate with government-sanctioned impunity' clause

14yrs, long time to loose your liberty innit.. 😕

Just all these bankers that missold PPI, hedge fund traders that caused the crash, mortgage lenders etc.....

14yrs, long time to loose your liberty innit.

He's hardly going to be in with the nonces in Strangeways, is he? He'll do 7 years in some category D holiday camp, 4 of which probably on license, on a tag at home, where he can write his book, and discover ****ing God, like the rest of the usual suspects....

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Do you reckon they'll be going after his assets,acquired through his criminal activity, like they do with drug dealers and armed robbers. Hmmmmmm..... I wonder.....?

About bloody time.

14 years sounds about right considering the size of the market.

like the rest of the usual suspects....

He's Keyser Söze?

that caused the crash

No really!!

Wow, that is more than expected - I do think that there will be others bricking it. Including some right at the top.

Blimey that's 2x Leesons sentence,

I wonder if he's the nominated fall guy thrown to the Lions so the big boys can rest easy.

He put in a guilty plea to prevent being extradited to the states where they actually take this stuff seriously, and he would have got a hell of a lot more.

He claims he was doing it in the full knowledge of his senior managers, who were fully complicit in it. Lets see if any of those end up in a courtroom eh?

Its not like its the kind of thing you can do on your own, is it?

bikebouy - Member

14yrs, long time to loose your liborty innit..

Whilst I welcome serious sentencing does this mean this hasn't been dealt with using the American 'FIFA' style approach of starting with the smaller fry to get the bigger fish in senior management positions who must have known this was going on. Or is that an unrealistic expectation?

[i]I wonder if he's the nominated fall guy thrown to the Lions so the big boys can rest easy. [/i]

I reckon he's the first of a number of fall guys..

But none of them will be anything other than the 'troops'.

He claims he was doing it in the full knowledge of his senior managers, who were fully complicit in it. Lets see if any of those end up in a courtroom eh?

You have to remember these are the best of the best, the brightest and best educated the country has to offer, the masters of the universe. That is why they earn so much money and we should all be grateful that they are so successful. There is no way these intellectual colossus's would be confused and surprised by the dealings of their juniors.... is there?

my mangers knew, my manager's manager knew. In some cases the CEO was aware of it

Tom Hayes

Sounds very much like Barings to me. Could be wrong though!

I reckon he's the first of a number of fall guys..

But none of them will be anything other than the 'troops'.

The terminology really winds me up. Its PPI 'mis-selling', this is Libor 'manipulation'. Its ****ing fraud! Pure and simple! On an industrial scale! And does anyone think that they've actually stopped it? That the culture within these hallowed institutions has changed one little bit?

I wish they'd just call it what it is! It seems like we can't possibly offend the delicate sensibilities of the bunch of institutionally protected shysters that constitute the City, by referring to them as what they actually are: a bunch of fraudsters and crooks!

I wonder how much of the sentence will be cut on appeal, and will it even make the news then?

14 years is a long time and probably longer than what he would have got if he plea bargained in the US. The NatWest three were threatened with charges which involved prison time of 35 years but after plea bargain this was reduced to 37 [u]months[/u].

IIRC 15 years was the minimum tariff for murder before parole could be considered.

But none of them will be anything other than the 'troops'.

Cant't let it go too far up the hierarchy or we'll start running into the major party donors.

14 years is a big old whack for any fraud.

From the BBC "His wife noted down the verdicts as they were read out." you'd have thought after a couple she'd have realised it was going to be quite easy to remember them all and stopped noting.

These guys are not the "troops", they may not be sat on the top of the pile, but they are a a hell of a lot further from being crushed at the bottom of the pile.

definitely just a fall guy, thrown to the lions to protect the chiefs.

[url= http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2015/07/libor-historys-largest-financial-crime-that-the-wsj-and-nyt-would-like-you-to-forget.html#more-9571 ]New Economic Perspectives Article[/url]

He's hardly going to be in with the nonces in Strangeways, is he? He'll do 7 years in some category D holiday camp, 4 of which probably on license, on a tag at home

Yeah, that sounds lovely, no sort of punishment at all. No hardship whatsoever. Scott free really.

EDIT UNEDITED: Tried a different browser, seems it [b]was[/b] just me..

How does his crime warrant 14 years by comparison to rape?

14 years is too long. I would say 5 - 10 years and confiscation of all wealth accumulated during his spreed would be better.

It looks like physical crime warrant less.

Rape and Sexual Offences
Chapter 19: Sentencing

Starting Points

Single offence of rape by single offender:
5 years custody - victim 16 or over
8 years custody - victim 13 or over but under 16
10 years custody - victim under 13

Rape accompanied by aggravating factor:
8 years custody - victim 16 or over
10 years custody- victim aged 13 or over but under 16
13 years custody - victim under 13

Repeated Rape of same victim by single offender or rape involving multiple victims:
15 years custody

[url= http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/sentencing/ ]Ref: CPS[/url]

I think that what happens next will show exactly how corrupt the financial, judicial and political worlds are in the UK.

If he's the only one who is sent to prison it shows that there is a lot of corruption, if he's the first of many then it's not much different.

He was unfortunate enough to get 14 years under the wearily familiar 'let's find a scapegoat and make it look like we're actually doing something' rule

I think that what happens next will show exactly how corrupt the financial, judicial and political worlds are in the UK.

School ties and all that.

How does his crime warrant 14 years by comparison to rape?

14 years is too long. I would say 5 - 10 years and confiscation of all wealth accumulated during his spreed would be better.

It looks like physical crime warrant less.

Rape and Sexual Offences
Chapter 19: Sentencing

Starting Points

Single offence of rape by single offender:
5 years custody - victim 16 or over
8 years custody - victim 13 or over but under 16
10 years custody - victim under 13

Rape accompanied by aggravating factor:
8 years custody - victim 16 or over
10 years custody- victim aged 13 or over but under 16
13 years custody - victim under 13

Repeated Rape of same victim by single offender or rape involving multiple victims:
15 years custody

Ref: CPS

I'd say there was a damn good case to up the sentences of rapists rather than reduce the sentences of fraudsters.

Wonder if he'll get POCA'd.

Well, not that you'd be any less happy, there are a host of new regulations that mean not only the "boy on the desk" but those above, sideways and in some cases below will all be complicit in the crime.

Only just being brought in over here, but it's on its way.

Still think 14yrs is a lot. Even if he gets 7yrs in and 3yrs tagged thats one helluva lot of time behind bars and a lot loosing your liberty.

You may think it's too lenient..

I think its a lot.

And..

Well the guy can't be tried as above because the law wasn't in at the time of the incident.

And...

I'm not condoning his actions.

14 years seems far far to long. Has it actually been proved that what he did caused actual material damage. I agree it's fraud and a crime but 14 years. He would have probably got less if be our purposely ran over a cyclist and killed them. Also why 7 yrs in prison. He is not a threat to society. It's like the phone hacking he will be the fall guy as the people higher up the ladder will get away with it. Rebecca Brooks and Andy Coulson not knowing about phone hacking yer right. If not they must be flaming idiots. Obvious to anyone reading their papers that the only way to have got a story was by bugging or phone hacking. The establishment elite will close ranks and protect themselves. Harsh sentence as they can't let the plebs get out of hand. Like all the sentences after the riots a few years back. Redicously harsh and over the top as the masses can't rock the block. Didn't some bloke get 3yrs for stealing a bottle of water!

Will be fascinating to see what comes of the historical sex abuse enquiry and how the establishment deals with that.

14 yrs aint for one charge. He got found guilty on a number of charges and some sentences are running consecutively

Also why 7 yrs in prison. He is not a threat to society

Removal of a threat is only one element, along with rehabilitation and deterrence there's also that old chestnut, punishment. Whatever you think about the harshness or otherwise of his sentence, it'll be based on what was on the statute when the offence was committed.

He was not running a time share scam, he was manipulating the libor rate, something which effects TRILLIONS of pounds of financial products. Not billions, trillions........

Whilst I agree, it's amazingly harsh he has been singled out, I think it's pretty fair sentence considering the scale of what he was up to.

Bernie Madoff got over a hundred years IIRC and you think a guy that fixes the libor rate is being treated harshly by getting fourteen?

If a load of others don't go jail as well though, it will be a complete shambles.

Also why 7 yrs in prison. He is not a threat to society

On the contrary, corrupt bankers and traders are some of the biggest threats to society. It just so happens that there are a lot of them and the guy has been singled out.

Bazz - Member
I'd say there was a damn good case to up the sentences of rapists rather than reduce the sentences of fraudsters.

Yes, but at the moment the sentence by comparison looks so stooopid.

kudos100 - Member

He was not running a time share scam, he was manipulating the libor rate, something which effects TRILLIONS of pounds of financial products. Not billions, trillions........

Yes, but there should be checks in place but somehow that is missing. In order to manage such manipulation requires a lot of work so the chain of command should be penalised as well coz they "kept" a blind eye.

Woody - I just made the same comparison myself. It's phone hacking all over again.

The idea that the people at the top didn't know what was going on is so completely preposterous, that it's laughable they even tried to raise it as a credible defence. But they got away with it, while throwing some underlings to the wolves.

The same will happen here. Those with the fancy titles, and obscene salaries, will keep making their party donations, and carry on effectively doing this....

With about as much credibility.

Business as usual it is then Eh?

His highest sentence was 9.5 years . He was a main player ringleader of others made substantial gains so the sentence is not out of the ordinary. He not only gets no credit for pleading guilty but will have upped his tariff by admiring guilt then withdrawing cooperation and trying to wriggle out of it .
13 more to come at least.
Chew the rape guidelines you quote are out of date current ones ate significantly harsher as is current sentencing generally.

crankboy - Member
Chew the rape guidelines you quote are out of date current ones ate significantly harsher as is current sentencing generally.

You mean this one?

[url= http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s1_rape/index.html ]Date Updated: January 2012 (Commencement Date: 01/05/2004)[/url]

Type/nature of activity: Rape accompanied by any one of the following: abduction or detention; offender aware that he is suffering from a sexually transmitted infection; more than one offender acting together; abuse of trust; offence motivated by prejudice (race, religion, sexual orientation, physical disability); sustained attack

Starting points: 13 years custody if the victim is under 13
Sentencing ranges: 11 - 17 years custody
Starting points: 10 years custody if the victim is a child aged 13 or over but under 16
Sentencing ranges: 8 - 13 years custody
Starting points: 8 years custody if the victim is 16 or over
Sentencing ranges: 6 - 11 years custody

Type/nature of activity: Single offence of rape by single offender

Starting points: 10 years custody if the victim is under 13
Sentencing ranges: 8 - 13 years custody
Starting points: 8 years custody if the victim is 13 or over but under 16
Sentencing ranges: 6 - 11 years custody
Starting points: 5 years custody if the victim is 16 or over
Sentencing ranges: 4 - 8 years custody

Nope.

crankboy - Member

Nope.

Website link?

For punishment sake!

🙄

Yes, but there should be checks in place but somehow that is missing. In order to manage such manipulation requires a lot of work so the chain of command should be penalised as well coz they "kept" a blind eye.

I agree. In the past traders have managed to hide huge losses in secret accounts without anyone else colluding in it, however manipulating something like the Libor rate is impossible to do without a load of people knowing and colluding in it.

So we will find out just how corrupt the system is, if this poor bastard is the only guy who gets jail time.

The city is like the mafia, the only difference is the people who are supposed to be keeping an eye on them and making sure the don't break the rules, are all mafia members themselves.

kudos100 - Member
The city is like the mafia, the only difference is the people who are supposed to be keeping an eye on them and making sure the don't break the rules are all mafia members themselves.

Yes, speaking like a true person but I call them ZMs. 😛

Google sentening counsel definitive guidelines sexual offences . published December 2013 effective 1st April 2014
Cps website is a good but not definitive tool.

In the past traders have managed to hide huge losses in secret accounts without anyone else colluding in it

I never saw a thing guv, honest.... omerta! what omerta? I don't know what you are talking about, look a squirrel.

crankboy - Member

Google sentening counsel definitive guidelines sexual offences . published December 2013 effective 1st April 2014
Cps website is a good but not definitive tool.

Post the link for punishment sake!

I want the information now I want it at a click. 😆

edit: this one? [url= http://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Final_Sexual_Offences_Definitive_Guideline_content_web1.pdf ]In PDF.[/url]

Its a big document you need to download actually just google sentencing counsel guidelines there is a website full of them for you to knock yourself out with including the on topic fraud one .

Yep chew that's the one .

Does anyone know if there's a copy of the full judgement available to read anywhere?

Surely the only really effective punishment here is to take every last penny and resource he owns off him?

Jail will achieve nothing, bar a cost to tax payer.

Taking everything off him, bar his job, would put him 'back at zero', but with means to support himself?

he was caught by a manager who blew the whistle on him at Citibank a year before he was charged, they informed the cops immeadiatly butr took a good long time to investigate. So the bank referred themselves before anyone outside knew what was going on.

Surely the only really effective punishment here is to take every last penny and resource he owns off him?

I think there will be a 'proceeds of crime' thing next, where they look at all his assets and get back as much as possible that he obtained dishonestly

"Does anyone know if there's a copy of the full judgement available to read anywhere? "
Crown Court so not normal to do a transcript. The Guardian report was detailed enough to satisfy my one query.

14 years (out in 7) is far to long. A guy I know from school only did 8 inside for murder...

Definitely a scapegoat...although the fact he made millions will probably soften the blow (and reduces my sympathy somewhat)

Murders generally only kill 1 or 2 people; the british journal of psychiatry reported that the economic crisis caused 10000 suicides across europe... That's leaving aside losses of health and wellbeing. Of course, one person didn't do that but his behaviour is a part of the financial psychopathy that led to it.

I spotted this on a headline last night whilst I was watching TV...

It seems unduly harsh to me - 14 years for insider trading, it seems like state sponsored banker bashing to me.

I was watching 24 hours in Police Custody at the time, a brilliant, if sometimes tough watch for me - they had a guy in custody - he worked in a school and was caught downloading Child Pornography, 45000 images, 11 specific offenses, but he openly admitted he'd been doing it since the dawn of the internet (well home users anyway I guess) admittedly he confessed almost straight away, seemed relived to be caught - but he got a 2 year suspended sentence, 3 years counselling and had to sign the register for 10 years - he spent a total of about 4 hours in custody - that was it, yes his career was over, his Wife probably left him and he'll probably never get another job - but they covered his face, he'd only have to move towns and it would be like it never happened - it's worth saying of course they, as far as the police know, he'd never physically abused anyone.

On the other hand you have Rolf Harris, he spent decades sporadically abusing under-age girls - 5 years.

Okay, everyone always compared things to Nonses these days, they've become the new yard-stick, the evil benchmark that all criminals are compared to.

But look at these nasty pieces of work:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/armed-robbery-gang-who-laughed-2808169

A trail of destruction, robbery with violence and a history of criminal activity - not one of them got the same sentence as Tom Hayes got for his first offence.

The only remarkable thing about his crime was the size of the money involved - and it seems we think money is more important than victims these days.

The only remarkable thing about his crime was the size of the money involved - and it seems we think money is more important than victims these days.

In the case of financial malpractice there are still victims, in cases like this there are potentially huge numbers of victims, and those victims still face very real consequences.

It's pretty much impossible to calculate the equivalence of victim-hood when it's been abstracted away like this - but if just one business folded or a handful of homes were repossessed that wouldn't have been* somewhere down the lines as a result of his actions then the suffering inflicted could easily rival the crimes you mention.

*I have no idea if this has happened in this case but the point is that paper crimes can have victims too.

Murders generally only kill 1 or 2 people; the british journal of psychiatry reported that the economic crisis caused 10000 suicides across europe... That's leaving aside losses of health and wellbeing. Of course, one person didn't do that but his behaviour is a part of the financial psychopathy that led to it.

I'm glad someone gets it.

Comparing murder to fraud, without in some way trying to quantify the effect on society is missing the point.

The article of the first page on this thread states:

"To review the bidding, the LIBOR bid rigging cartel was the largest cartel in history, manipulating the prices of an estimated $300+ trillion in assets."

If you think 14 years is too much for fraud, perhaps do some more reading about what he/they were up to.

EDIT: I also think sentences for sex offences are a joke. The often ruin someone's whole life so should be treated much more harshly.

Your armed robbers in the link all got longer sentences than the banker his longest was 9.5 years he got 4.5 consecutive for additional offences . Also at a guess the staring point for the robbers was higher still between 10 and 33% would be discounted for a guilty plea the banker got full whack for running and losing a trial.
On a utilitarian note what actually causes more harm to society a banker manipulating interest rates over years causing redundancies mortgagee repossessions business to fail with the associated human misery or a few one off hits on cash vans for relative pennies that are insured .

Different crimes have different sorts of impacts the courts only have one measure of serious punishment to apply.

The problem with financial crime is that financial punishments and indeed short sentences are no deterrent to professional risk takers .

On a utilitarian note what actually causes more harm to society a banker manipulating interest rates over years causing redundancies mortgagee repossessions business to fail with the associated human misery or a few one off hits on cash vans for relative pennies that are insured .

He was a derivatives trader so he would have been just as interested in the rate being understated as well as overstated depending upon whether he was long or short at the time. The effect is therefore likely to have been shared between both borrowers and lenders - sometimes they will have benefited and sometimes they will have lost out.

I think he can probably blame at least 4 or 5 years of his sentence on trying to be a smartarse and play the legal system. Pleading guilty and saying you'll co-operate, then changing your plea to not guilty and being as un-coperative and obstructive as possible? Judges tend to take a very dim view of that kind of thing when sentencing. If he was half as clever as he thinks he is, he'd have known that.

Banker in not showing any contrition, and thinking he's cleverer than everyone else Shocka!!!

He deserved a tough sentence and there were crimes committed, but 14 years does seem harsh, given the piffling sentences for burglaries (which the police now can't be arsed to attend) and violent crimes.

All seems a massive smokescreen to divert from the lack of real police protection ordinary people, homes and properties now enjoy.

Bread and circuses...

matt_outandabout - Member

Surely the only really effective punishment here is to take every last penny and resource he owns off him?

They should take back as much as possible including certain percentage off his family members including his children. No way to hid his criminal gains.

Yes, he is the only person committed the crime but it would be better to let the family members to deal another family member upbringing etc. That way you pass the responsibility to the family members.

Jail will achieve nothing, bar a cost to tax payer.

Agree. Alternatively is to bill them for the cost during or after the sentence. Why should we feed them (generally speaking for all) for their criminal acts?

Taking everything off him, bar his job, would put him 'back at zero', but with means to support himself?

Yes, even with his job there should be constant pay back of certain percentage. He can still live but he needs to pay back.

🙂