[Closed] Let's talk about suicide

Bumped.

If we're going to have a frank discussion about suicide I'd like to raise something that I never see mentioned which is that sometimes suicide is a rational response to the situation someone finds themselves in.

A friend of mine committed suicide about a year after learning he had a degenerative condition. It was the kind of condition that he might have lived with for a good number of years, perhaps decades, and even had a decent quality of life but he was a high flier both in his career and physical activities and not the kind of person to compromise on either.

Whilst I miss him and feel for those closer to him I also feel like I should respect his decision and I certainly understand it. I realise that many suicides and suicide attempts are not so well reasoned as my friend's and that given help many might be avoided but I think that sometimes it's a valid choice and it's really important to acknowledge that. I think what I'm getting at is that while suicide is a grim thing for those left behind and our first response is always that it's a mistake it might not feel like a mistake to the individual.

My apologies if the above offends or upsets anyone, it's something that's been rolling about in my head for a while and a thread titled 'Let's talk about suicide' seemed like a good opportunity to raise it.

as above for whatever reason a person contemplates taking their own life, its that persons decision, the sad thing is it may leave lots of unanswered questions like that argument you had with them a few days ago, or you where to busy to see them or speak to them, you may have had no idea they had mental health problems, we all need to make time for everyone, to listen and chat to people, and listen out for cries for help, and offer that help and support.

Men are terrible for bottling stuff up, seeing it as not manly to cry and expose their feelings, women seem to do it quite well.

I was in a bad place mentally a few years ago. I did something silly. Thankfully it didn´t work. I was sectioned. I realised that for my life to change I had to be the one doing the changing. Previously I was a site manager on very stressful large construction projects and if I hated the stress and long hours. I had a massive burnout/breakdown that sent me to a dark place. If something in your life is bringing you down, change it. Now I love my life. I am now an official guide in the Danube area of Austria. Here´s a pic from today.

Believe me when I say no matter how bad you think it is, it will get better, as long as you want it to change.

If anyone is in Austria, contact me if you fancy a tour - bike, hike, historical, art, alcohol based, whatever.

Simon_Semtex: Thanks for posting this.

Nae bother. I hope it helps.

If we’re going to have a frank discussion about suicide I’d like to raise something that I never see mentioned which is that sometimes suicide is a rational response to the situation someone finds themselves in.

This. Often ignored but a real thing.

I know it is difficult to talk about suicide from a different perspective especially those from the religious perspective.

No matter how hard it can be instead of suicide just give it your best to get through it which is not easy and find as many experts to help you out as possible.

I shall keep it very short in my explanation and if you wish to know more just read all the available religious texts from Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity etc ... they have the same conclusion about suicide.

They all forbid suicide because death from suicide will result in extreme suffering in afterlife.

It's hideously pithy and throw away but a phrase that always resonated with me is "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."

If someone had said that to me at certain times during my 20's I'd have wanted to try and strangle them in all probability. Now with hindsight? It's so bloody true.

So here’s a question for you: where’s the line at which point you need help between having dark thoughts that you’d never act on, and genuine suicidal thoughts? My family life is stable and financially I’m sound; I realise that this is a fortunate position to be in and don’t take it for granted. However, I constantly feel like I’m always rushing for others with rarely any time for myself. Chuck into the mix everything else that’s going on at the moment (Brexit, Covid, climate change etc which fills me pretty much with existential dread) and I frequently feel emotionally drained and numb. That said, at times I’m plenty happy....but then my mood will swing to a place where I just think to myself ‘Ah sod this, wouldn’t it be easier just to get off the world?’. I suffered a very close family bereavement earlier this year and at times I find myself irrationally jealous that he doesn’t have to deal with all this anymore.

I am absolutely confident that I would never try anything foolish, but is it normal or common to have these kinds of thoughts to the stresses of everyday life? I assume it is... Or should I go talk to someone?

(Incidentally, just writing this feels wrong, like I shouldn’t bother anyone by asking but in the spirit of being open and honest about suicide in an attempt to encourage others as well...)

^^ Normal? I'd say yes.

Should you go and talk to someone? Well...As a general rule it's unlikely to do you any harm and might give you insights that you would be hard pressed to find for yourself.

It's often completely exhausting and pointless to try and analyse your own mind and psyche. You end up chasing your own tail.

That’s a fair point: what harm can it do? You’re right though; in the lead up to the bereavement I mentioned, my sister started seeing a counsellor to prepare her. It gave her much better insight into a whole range of issues and she reckons it helped her cope better.

[Religions] all forbid suicide because death from suicide will result in extreme suffering in afterlife.

Nah. Religion evolved as a tool for social control at a time when life was tough and unpleasant. "Yeah, your life's shit, but knuckle down, keep working hard, do what we say, keep the priests rolling in food/gold/women, and you'll go to heaven forever." The only sane response would be for an individual to get the misery over with and commit suicide - so they made it a mortal sin.

I'd echo the comment above about it sometimes being a rational choice in certain circumstances.

I have been pretty far down this road in recent times and am still living on antidepressants (thank goodness before Covid arrived). My concern has long been how to do it without inconveniencing others, as per jumping in front of trains or off road bridges. That and not making life worse for emergency services with a grim find, let alone making sure it is not your wife or children who find you. My much mulled over solution of 20 odd years is drowning at sea with a weight to keep the body down. This had the added advantage of being something I was terrified of, so full points for self-loathing.
For what it's worth now, I'm closer to running away to Greece to live in a mountain hut as a hermit. I just need the kids to be old enough.
Yes, I have full psychiatric and psychological consulting. I spend my time reading about history. The present disgusts me and the future holds little interest beyond knowing my children are ok.

I had a failed attempt when I was younger and then a very close brush again in my late 30's as I was in an exceptionally dark place with no simple escape.I discovered that for me, the true danger sign isnt having emotional thoughts about killing myself but when it seem like the logical and coldly clinical only solution. It was only a chance encounter with someone, who, in all honesty is pretty much the only reason im stll here. life is pretty bloody good now and i am far more aware of the danger signs in me. so for anyone going through these sort of thoughts, or just needing an impartial listener, I am always available.

Not sure there is a huge amount that can be done, other than emotional education at school. I know a lad who took his life, his father had done the same years before. He never got to grips with it and was not offered the support by the NHS. Just counselling session after session, the usual bullshit where you leave the surgery bouncing and hours later you’re brains back doing it’s thing.

How long is the training for a mental health worker?

My family life is stable and financially I’m sound; I realise that this is a fortunate position to be in and don’t take it for granted. However, I constantly feel like I’m always rushing for others with rarely any time for myself. Chuck into the mix everything else that’s going on at the moment (Brexit, Covid, climate change etc which fills me pretty much with existential dread) and I frequently feel emotionally drained and numb. That said, at times I’m plenty happy….but then my mood will swing to a place where I just think to myself ‘Ah sod this, wouldn’t it be easier just to get off the world

That's me, 4-5 years ago. Struggling unsupported in a new job role, struggling to juggle busy kids, aging parents and a wife with a "properly stressful" life or death type job. I was eying up the multi storey car park, as I figured jumping would be an ironic way to go given my terror of heights.

Three months off work, low level meds, CBT and counselling helped me find the space to calm down my mind, take a step back, see the bigger picture and prioritise my responsibilities to everyone around me but also to myself. Took a step back at work, went 4 days a week, cut cloth accordingly. Now off meds, in a much better place to handle the current crazy world, able to support those around me and just got a big step up job wise. It's taken time, but I've done it.

I'd have been maybe 21 when my mentor at work committed suicide after being discovered to have been stealing from the business. His wife couldn't face coming into the building to pick up his effects, so I had to hand the box over to his 10 year old son at reception. He asked me if I'd known his dad. I said yes, and that he'd been a kind and clever guy who has always helped me when I needed it, which was true.

Though I can understand why he chose to end it, I never want one of my kids to have to go through what that poor lad must have been going through in those circumstances.

but is it normal or common to have these kinds of thoughts to the stresses of everyday life? I assume it is

Yes, think so.

A massive +1 @ Spin.

Is it wrong or incorrect for someone, after receiving news that is irreversibly going to give them a miserable future life, to want to end it all?
If someone has thought about suicide for a long time but not acted upon it (yet) then surely that person cannot be perceived as selfish, yet suicide is perceived as a selfish act?
The family left behind have each other to console themselves with, the other person probably felt alone for a long time, perhaps saying nothing to protect his loved ones feelings?

another +1 to spin - sort of, but from a different perspective, and also in response to MCTD

Though I can understand why he chose to end it, I never want one of my kids to have to go through what that poor lad must have been going through in those circumstances.

When things have got so bad, whether for physical or psychological reasons that suicide seems like the solution, how selfLESS is the person that keeps on going because of the impact it'll have on others. We hear about 'the coward's way out' but to get up every day, struggle through while hating every breath you take, every moment that you persist, if at some point that tips and they take that decision that person needs sympathy and understanding more than criticism.

Thanks to everyone who has been brave enough to post. Some very interesting views being expressed and some that have really challenged how I think about suicide.

One point that has struck a chord is about "warning signs." Tazzy... you say that the warning sign for you was the point at which "it became a logical and coldly clinical solution."

This really matches with something I read a while ago which describes suicide as "having a warrant to kill yourself." The old view might have been that death my suicide might have been an act of desperation or the act of someone who is so low that no other way out can be considered. Research has shown that people who take their own lives believe that they have a "warrant to kill themselves" in other words its not a negative thing to do but an "actively positive" thing to do which is accompanied with a state of calm, clarity and happiness.

Would you say this was the case?

If we’re going to have a frank discussion about suicide I’d like to raise something that I never see mentioned which is that sometimes suicide is a rational response to the situation someone finds themselves in.

I remember telling everyone, including family, that I didn't want to be here anymore. This was not long after lyanda passed away so was definitely a situation based thought. I won't lie, I still think it even now, nearly 2 and a half years on. So many more difficult and traumatic things have happened since then too, then add lockdown to the mix it is all completely overwhelming. All I keep thinking is the kids have lost one parent already, they don't need to lose two parents.

It's a really hard life now though. Not only am I lonely, I am alone too. Evenings are by far the worst once the kids have gone to bed. I'm here by myself with my own thoughts, been the same for nearly 2 and a half years now. It's a long time to be like this and doesn't look like it will change anytime soon. Apart from the kids, I have no one around. And if it weren't for them, I might not be here now.

As wonderful as the kids are, I really miss adult interaction and conversation. I have a handful of good friends around me, but they work and have families so rarely see them, especially recently. Buying unnecessary things creating more debt and comfort eating seem to be my coping mechanisms. I'm trying to get to grips with these but it's really difficult when you feel so low all the time.

I struggle to talk to anyone about it in person though, that's why I do my blog and occasionally rant on here. Even me posting here has decreased, just read through posts instead. I still have thoughts of pushing you all away with only posting dreary things and I really don't want that. I fully agree with what's been said though. There is a taboo surrounding men that makes it difficult to show emotions and talk. This somehow needs to stop. I hope everyone is doing OK. If anyone needs or wants a chat please get in touch.

Thanks gnusmas. Have read some of your posts. I feel for you. Didn't know about your blog. I'd be really interested in that. You have a link?

Research has shown that people who take their own lives believe that they have a “warrant to kill themselves” in other words its not a negative thing to do but an “actively positive” thing to do which is accompanied with a state of calm, clarity and happiness.

One I realised it was an option life became less stressful. Knowing there will be an end takes a certain degree of pressure away.

One thing that bugs me is, people saying "suicide is selfish". Yeah, that's how it looks like from the outside. People who commit heinous crime and take their own life to avoid justice, that's selfish. Not the average Joe, who is going through the darkest period of his/her life

Speaking from my own personal experience, for someone committing/attempting suicide due to depression, it really is the only option left. And it takes a lot of guts to swallow a bottle of pills, thinking you'll never see your loved ones again.

Thankfully, 15 years later, I'm in a better place, and can recognise any warning signs and deal with them

Mental health is probably one of the most complex things many of us have to deal with, with no formal training beyond the tools (such as religion) we gain through our upbringing and subsequent life experience.

I'd be surprised if most of us haven't contemplated suicide at one time or another. For me counselling rarely helped but one thing that did stick was the phrase 'reactive (or situational) depression'. That was literally a life changer.

If suicide is a warrant to kill yourself, then you are also warranted to make less drastic changes. You then have to live with those choices, and trust that it's worth it. In my experience, it is.

It seems that in Japan they hold a more "tolerant" view towards the act:

Historically, cultural attitudes towards suicide in Japan have been described as "tolerant", with certain types of suicides being considered honorable, especially during military service. For example, seppuku was a form of ritual suicide by self-disembowelment practiced mainly by samurai to avoid dishonor, such as after defeat in battle or after bringing shame upon oneself. During World War II, the Empire of Japan regularly employed kamikaze and banzai charge suicide attacks[8] and encouraged suicide as a preferable alternative to capture.[9]

As of 2020, the leading motive, with 49% of suicides was "Health issues". However because the category for health issues includes both mental (e.g., depression) and physical issues, it is not possible to distinguish between the two.

The second most commonly listed motive for suicides was "Financial/Poverty related issues" (e.g., Too much debt, Poverty), which was a motive in 17% of suicides.

The third motive is "Household issues" (e.g., disagreements in the family) listed in 15% of suicides.

Fourth on the list are "Workplace issues" (e.g., work relationships) with 10% of suicides listing it as a reason.

The last two major categories are "Relationship issues" at 4% (e.g., heartbreak), "School" at 2% (e.g., not achieving the results you were aiming for) then lastly "other", at 10%.[6]

There is substantial cultural tolerance for suicide, which has been "elevated to the level of an esthetic experience" through cultural and social experiences common to many Japanese.[31]

The general attitude toward suicide has been termed "tolerant", and in many occasions suicide is seen as a morally responsible action.[32] This cultural tolerance may stem from the historical function of suicide in the military. In feudal Japan, honorable formal suicide (seppuku) among Samurai (Japanese warrior) was considered a justified response to failure or inevitable defeat in battle. Traditionally, seppuku involved the slashing open of one's stomach with a sword. The purpose of this was to release the Samurai's spirit upon the enemy and thus avoid dishonorable execution and probable torture at the hand of an enemy. Today, honor suicides are also referred to as hara-kiri, literally "belly-cutting".[33]

Cultural tolerance of suicide in Japan may also be explained by the concept of amae, or the need to be dependent on and accepted by others. For the Japanese, acceptance and conformity are valued above one's individuality.[34] As a result of this perspective, one's worth is associated with how one is perceived by others.[35] Ultimately, this can lead to fragile self-concept and an increased likelihood of considering dying by suicide when one feels alienated.[34]

The cultural heritage of suicide as a noble tradition still has some resonance. While being investigated for an expenses scandal, Cabinet minister Toshikatsu Matsuoka took his life in 2007. The former governor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara, described him as a "true samurai" for preserving his honour.[36] Ishihara was also the scriptwriter for the film I Go To Die For You, which glorifies the memory and bravery of the kamikaze pilots in WWII.[37]

Although Japanese culture historically permitted more tolerant views on the morality and social acceptability of suicide, the rapid growth in suicide rate since the 1990s has increased public concern about suicide.[38] In particular, the trend of increased Internet usage among adolescents and young adults as well as the rising popularity of websites related to suicide has raised concerns from the public and the media about how Internet culture may be contributing to higher suicide rates.[32]

One phenomenon that has been particularly concerning is that of Shinjū (suicide pacts) that are formed among individuals, typically strangers, via Internet forums and messageboards. These pacts, which are popularly referred to as "Internet group suicide", are formed with the intention of all individuals meeting to die by suicide at the same time, by the same method.[33]

While the concept of group suicide also has a historical presence in Japanese culture, traditional shinjū differs from modern Internet group suicide because it occurred among lovers or family members rather than among strangers. Another difference is that mutual consent from those who die by historical shinjū was not required. In other words, certain forms of shinjū might be considered "murder-suicide" in Western cultures rather than suicide. An example of this type of shinjū would be a mother killing her children and then killing herself.[34]

An example of historical shinjū in Japanese literature can be found in Chikamatsu Monzaemon's puppet play from 1703 entitled Sonezaki Shinjuu ("The Love Suicides at Sonezaki"), which was later re-engineered for the kabuki theater. The inspiration for the play was an actual double suicide which had then recently occurred between two forbidden lovers.[39]

These modern shinjū have not received the same level of tolerance or social acceptability as an honor suicide (seppuku or hara-kiri) from the Japanese media. Internet group suicide has generally been portrayed as a thoughtless and impulsive act by the media because it seems that there is no compelling reason for why individuals enter into such pacts. In contrast, seppuku serves a specific function; to preserve honor rather than die at the hand of an enemy.[32] However, this perception has been challenged by research on Internet group suicide by Ozawa de-Silva, who argues that these deaths are "characterized by severe existential suffering, a loss of the "worth of living" (ikigai)...and a profound loneliness and lack of connection with others".[32]

Overall, modern public concern about Japan's increasing suicide rate has tended to focus on suicide as a social issue rather than a public health concern. The distinction here is that Japanese culture emphasizes maladjustment into society and social factors as playing a larger role in an individual's decision to commit suicide than an individual psychopathology that is biological in nature.[38] Furthermore, stigma surrounding mental health care still exists in Japan.[32] Thus, there has been more emphasis on reforming social programs that contribute to economic stability (i.e. welfare) rather than creating specific mental health services.

According to The New Yorker, "by tradition, a mother who killed herself but not her children was thought to be truly wicked."[40][better source needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan#:~:text=There%20is%20substantial%20cultural%20tolerance,as%20a%20morally%20responsible%20action.

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I have seen more successful suicides than i can actually remember, one question i've put to those who feel suicidal is: "do you actually want to die or are you fed up with feeling how you do?".

If someone genuinely wishes to commit suicide, they will, it's unpreventable. What can be done is trying to catch & intervene with these persons before they act, and that is the challenge.

U.K. NHS mental health services are over stretched, overworked & under funded, those in need often don't have their individual needs met satisfactorily.

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The Swiss with their Dignitas etc have clearly had discussion on this subject & formed their own view on it, i'm not too sure of it other than the assisted dying we hear about, but its another angle to consider.

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It's definitely not a one one cap fits all scenario, there are infinite reasons as to the "why".

@Simon_Semtex link is

https://brighteststarinthesky.com

I've been told it's helped people in their own situations before, whether it's bereavement or not. It's nice to hear positive feedback about it and makes doing it more worthwhile. Please feel free to share it if you want.

It’s hideously pithy and throw away but a phrase that always resonated with me is “suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.”

Whenever someone says this it always irritates me. No doubt it's true in some cases, possibly even the majority of cases, but for many people the desire to kill themselves comes from something deeply rooted within themselves.

Some people are suicidal because of their situation, some are suicidal because who they are will never be compatible with the modern world no matter how many CBT classes they go to.

Qwerty.... I'd really encourage you to have a look at the Training I signposted in my original post.
https://www.zerosuicidealliance.com/Suicide IS preventable. Furthermore, the way we talk about it has a great impact on those who it affects.

It is not possible to "commit suicide." We commit "crimes" and suicide is not a crime (and has not been so since 1961 in the UK at least.)

The way we talk about suicide often stigmatizes the topic and continues to keep it as a taboo.

Please have a look at the training. It really is very useful.

The way we talk about suicide often stigmatizes the topic and continues to keep it as a taboo.

Its not just how we talk about suicide, but death in general in the UK, it certainly needs untabooing.

Would you consider having a look at the training?

The mhfa courses are really interesting and a bit harrowing on this topic.
apparently one of the major risk signs is when someone becomes content and happy within days of being very depressed as apparently it indicates that they have decided on their course of action and having that control improves things.
my view is that assisted dying (not calling it suicide) should be allowed but with controls.
I think when it happens as a result of mental health then it should be preventable. But in the case of prolonged and no chance of improvement for health issues it should be allowed

I think when it happens as a result of mental health then it should be preventable.

I hear this over and over again. To me this reinforces the idea that mental illness is somehow not a real illness. You don't hear people saying, 'All deaths due to cancer should be preventable.'

In many ways mental health is vastly more complex than cancer so I have no idea why people are so confident that all suicides are preventable.

Thanks everyone. Again, some very interesting views.

Thanks for reading the post. Hope it helps at least 1 person.

My PM's are always open for a chat but I'm going to bow out of this thread.

Again.... a big thank-you to all who have contributed. It's good to talk.

I know of two friends who have contemplated it, finding themselves in desperate situations, both convinced there was no future, one coming very close to (literally) pulling the trigger, both of them are now totally happy and content, things can, and do change for the better given time.

Not a great deal of experience with it, but 2 yrs ago my mate killed himself on xmas day.
Hit ne harder than I expected , mainly because he was the first of my mates to do it,(surprising as I'm 53)

The one thing that stuck with me was my realisation that the last thing he would experience was a panicking regret that he had done it and couldn't undo it.

He may not have, but I have always believed that anyone who kills themselves regrets it the second they realise they have managed it.

I just completed the ZSA Step Up Module. I now feel confident I could support someone who may be struggling with their mental health #ZSATraining #Letstalk

Messaging a mate I should be concerned about now. Thanks.

I've struggled in the past with this, even had it sussed in my mind and came to terms with how I was going to do it but sat it out and it passed. My issue is inability to speak out or ask for help, I dont want to feel a burden on others and many times in the past when I have asked for help I've essentially just been told to 'get over it' due to outdated attitudes.

I think as a society (and as men) the only thing we need to get over is the 'shame' of not being able to manage a stressful life event, be it work, family, finances, or just your own psyche. You even hear people talk about 'admitting' they are stressed or not coping. Why is that an admission? That implies guilt or that you have done something wrong or shameful.

Gecko...... Thank-you! Great job.

No worries. He replied to say he's OK but struggling with a situation at work. Going for a walk later

@brucewee

I didn't mean that mental illness is any less than a physical one.
simply that mental illness in itself will not kill you, where physical illnesses will.
the effect of mental illness is astonishing, I went through it this summer and the effects on me are still here. The brain is unbelievably powerful and worse when it sets itself against you.
I think the reason mental illness often leads to suicide is due to the failure of successive governments to address and support it

The title of this thread is 'Let's talk about suicide'

Like every other thread on suicide, people don't want to talk about suicide. They want to say things like:

Suicide IS preventable

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Things can and do get better with time

In order to talk about suicide you can't start with per-conceived notions like the ones above. You have to at least be open to the idea that with the way society organises itself, suicide is always going to be part of our lives. We are living in a way which is fundamentally against our instincts and to a greater or lesser extent it is making us all miserable.

Of course, you only have to consider these ideas if you genuinely want to TALK about suicide. Otherwise feel free to continue offering patronising soundbites.

I think it can be a rational solution to a situation, such as a family friend tormented by severe schizophrenia and childhood sexual abuse who took his life a few years ago.

Obviously people were upset, but some who knew him understood why - and did not regard it as selfish or misguided.

On the other hand, a 13-year-old lad at the local secondary school killed himself after homophobic bullying a couple of weeks ago.

Knowing what I do about the school's culture, I think he was very badly failed and it could indeed be seen as "a permanent solution to a temporary problem" - despite that perhaps being an annoyingly glib phrase.

I did say that it's possible the majority of suicides are of the 'permanent solution to a temporary problem' type.

Probably another sizeable chunk are 'rational' decisions where the person knows that their suffering is not going to get any better any time soon.

I still think that society makes us miserable and a good number of suicides come from this. We have a 'work or starve' based economy where people a terrified of losing their jobs and not being able to pay their mortgage. And these are the people who are lucky enough to have a job. If they don't they are constantly pressured to find work, any work, and to stop being a drain on everyone else.

The vast majority of people I know hate their jobs. The majority have money worries to a greater or lesser extent. Sure, you can say things will get better. You can also say things will get worse. The underlying system is always going to be there and it is always going to cause people to kill themselves.

We need a fundamental shift in attitudes across the world. Until that happens can we please stop pretending that all suicide is preventable.

Sure, we do what we can to try to help each other along. But things are not going to get any better.

Totally agree, to me this is a societal problem.
there will always be some who will make the choice that life won't get better (rightly or wrongly doesn't really matter).
I do strongly feel that outside of the severe mental illnesses the pressure that exist within current society have to be responsible.
The views that you must achieve x in your life.Ithink a universal basic income should be in place too.
These pressures must make what would be less severe illness much worse which then could lead to suicide.
I do think things will get better as with more awareness things should change.
Am hopeful

I don't go a month, a week if I'm being honest, without feeling mildly suicidal. It's always something that's there in the back of my mind. Weirdly when my Anxiety is bad, I tell myself "it's okay, if things get really bad you can throw yourself of that bridge... you know the one" and that makes me feel better. Sounds fun, I know.

My first real brush with it was in 2009, I'd smashed myself into bits on my MTB and I'd been in quiet a lot of pain for 6 months, it seemed endless. I'd be back at the hospital every 6 weeks or so, every time I'd build myself up for good news and they'd always cut me down with the same old, same old. It wasn't healing, it was getting worse, there was nothing that could be done. It was a rough old time, I'd been made redundant from a job that represented a lot of my self-worth, like now the news was just one tale of woe after another and there had been a bit of a personal revelation of sorts. A few years earlier as my friends had started to settle down, get married, have Kids etc the rest of us mostly pitied them, but the tide had turned, the vast majority of use had now gone down that road and where are before you'd assume it would be the pub, club, weekend away, party etc etc every weekend, now it was often a case of begging your mates to come out, or more often than not, not and there I was single AF, never having had a decent relationship and now I was a 'cripple'. So there I found myself. Physically Broken, Financially Broke, lonely and living back home with Mum because I couldn't afford to live anywhere else and frankly I could barely look after myself.

I'd chosen my method, I didn't want it to look like suicide, it would be too hard for my friends and family, and I also didn't want to leave behind bills for funerals and all that and I knew my pension 'death in service' benefit didn't cover suicide. So I decided I'd just ride my Motorbike into bridge, I knew which one, you don't need much of a run up with a 600cc Sportsbike, but it had plenty, there would be no chance of surviving it. The only problem was I'd become so relaxed about the whole thing, coupled with all the Tramadol I'd told my poor Mum my plan as is if it was the most normal thing in the world. She'd be beside herself every time I took my bike out, I just never put 2 and 2 together that a) she'd be worried or b) she'd care.

I've read posts, that I won't highlight that I get the impression that some people would think it would have been okay - I was never going to 100% recover from my accident, I never have, I'm still in pain, but a lot, lot less and there's a couple, of frankly fairly meaningless things I'll never be able to do again. What I've had to do, is accept change, well as best I can.

In my own opinion, there's a huge difference between Suicide, and Self-Euthanasia. Ending your life to escape a few months of horrible, withering painful death is a perfectly rational thing to do. Ending your life because of a massive, forced lifestyle change, even one that ends in a terminal illness years down the road, isn't. It's not personal choice, It's depression causing you to give up all the joy and happiness you could experience in what time you have left.

For me, it would have been a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The deepest, darkest hole I'd ever fallen into, one that seemed impossible to escape, took, maybe 6 months to get out of, it's been far from plain sailing but I've experience more joy and happiness in the last 11 years than sadness and pain. Frankly, despite having a brain chemistry that likes a bit of melancholy.

Respect is due for sharing P-Jay, good to hear you're in a better place now.

I've discussed this with the op and assured him I have no intention of doing anything silly as I have a son and wife and family but if I could find a way to stop my torment now I would gladly take it as I've had enough.

The title of this thread is ‘Let’s talk about suicide’

Like every other thread on suicide, people don’t want to talk about suicide.

Contrary to the thread title, it doesn't look like the OP wanted to talk about suicide either. What I think they actually wanted to talk about was one particular stance on suicide prevention. Absolutely well intentioned and I'm not criticising that but a misleading title and further evidence of the continuing taboo.

Some great thought provoking answers ...I, like many others, have often had enough having lived many decades with A+D -----I've researched the options but would only go there after exhausting every other avenue and now find that meditation and gratitude help the world feel a little more manageable for the time being.
As said earlier ..for many people life is fairly miserable ... because of the way our system works , and if you have no purpose then daily existence involving unsatisfying work ,stress and worry is nothing to be relished . Our society is full of messages from day 1 regarding what will make you happy but these things don't work for many despite them working all their lives to try and get there. Peace of mind is the holy grail but will live in a world full of uncertainty and constant change so if we think we can control that we'll end up being disappointed.
Best to work on your mind imho which is the source of so much suffering .
Just my thoughts (well ..and the Buddha's too !)

It’s hideously pithy and throw away but a phrase that always resonated with me is “suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.”

I'll raise another voice of dissent.

My mate Mick is 3 years gone. I'd known him for years but never knew until near the end that he suffered from hideous levels of depression his entire life. In the end he was taking **** knows what (he got really into legal highs just before they got banned) and one night just decided to write a letter and string himself up on the washing line. That was that. He'd just had enough.

Trying to rationalise suicide is utterly hopeless, it's not rational, it's not reasonable, it's just there. Some folk want help, others don't. Some people get out the hole but for others it only gets deeper. It's a horrible, horrible thing and it always hurts, you always wonder if there was something you could have done but that's just, again, trying to rationalise it. All I can say is that by being open about mental health, not judging people, looking after yourself and looking after those around you maybe we would see less lives lost. If society doesn't give a shit why should they?

For anyone who isn't currently suffering from major mental health problems, I recently heard an unexpected, inspiring comment from the UFC fighter Israel Adesanya. On why he sees a therapist, he explained with an analogy along the lines of "you don't wait for your teeth to fall out then go to a dentist, you go to the dentist before you get problems and work to maintain the health of your teeth. Mental health should be the same and you work at it before you get ill"

Now we don't all have access to therapists but the concept of working to maintain your mental health before you suffer is an obvious but great reminder.

Best to work on your mind imho which is the source of so much suffering .
Just my thoughts (well ..and the Buddha’s too !)

I think everyone could benefit from this (and i'm as atheist as they come). Learning to still ones mind and to reach the realisation that your external circumstances are utterly irrelevant to your suffering (or at least should be) is going to help most people tremendously. Continue further down this path and you eventually aim to realise there is no 'you' to suffer! (but I digress)

Personally, i'm at a stage of understanding the above to be true academically, but it will take more work to really feel it to be true in my daily life.

Sorry my post is general mental health related rather than suicide specific.

Of course, you only have to consider these ideas if you genuinely want to TALK about suicide

Sounds like lets talk, but about it how ?.

It's internal thought process and while there are many people offering help, it is something you need to arrive at yourself. As in not 😆

Had an interesting situation, just before this pandemic, riding out of Glasgow city, across the wee suspension bridge. Usual, weave in and out, past the woman with the pram, past the couple standing in the middle, and a guy and girl standing there too, but the girl was on the wrong side of the railing.

Hang on.
Turns about and rode back to them

Ive stood on a bridge, on the wrong side. Pontcysyllte Aqueduct to be exact. I was in a secure unit there and made a break for it.

Only thing I could think to say was something shocking, which I shant repeat, but enough for her to stop looking at the water and look at me. And went on to explain that life improves. Basically keep her attention off the idea of plummeting into the Clyde until trained people, police etc arrived to talk her down.

I do wish though I had more of an idea of what to say though, as you can start talking, but words have a habit of being turned around or can lead to other ideas, so knowing what or how to direct a conversation would have been very helpful.
I just added my bit to help, it was the chap who initially stopped deserves the praise for helping. I just couldnt ride on unconcerned.

As it was a cop appears at my shoulder - Not often Im relieved to see a copper 😆
All went well from there and they took over from this chap and myself.

So what do you say 😕 Life is great ?, no it isnt, certainly not if your actually gotten to the point of climbing to other side of a safety railing.

PJay..... I never said thanks for your post. Really honest and brave of you to write what you have.

Thank-you.

I've just found this podcast. Thought it might be useful to all here. Again, it shows that suicide is preventable and that recovery is possible. (It's the story of footballer Clarke Carlisle and his wife.) 27 minutes long. Well worth a listen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0004f2q

The OP very kindly showed concern for me a couple of days ago when I posted certain things on my self-pity thread. Nothing has improved since then except that I've got a cold Brewdog IPA in my hand, which is a considerable morale boost.

I have to find a way to deal with my remorse.... a bad decision in February saw us embarking on a course of action, which is likely to blow all our savings and put us in an uncomfortable place for quite a few months. Had we been wiser we would now be snuggled up in our warm cosy secure house with cash in the bank and looking forward to Christmas with our son.

So I need a way of coping with this. Meds are helping a little more each day but I still need a way of coping with the bitter remorse. You couldn't have screwed up your life any worse than I have.

But wierdly right now I'm feeling strangely upbeat, which is an encouraging sign. It's pissing down outside and we are heading into lockdown again. It must be a positive sign that I've reacted well to today's bad stuff?

On suicide, I think about it, can't deny that and I bet many others do too but it is such a selfish act and would destroy my family especially my son who is on the threshold of a great life.

On Dignitas, it's not dignified at all. It's not a beautiful glass and steel clinic high on an Alp, they hire flats in Swiss towns and do the deeds there until the neighbours complain about the stream of bodies going out of the back door and Dignitas moves on.

Again, it shows that suicide is preventable and that recovery is possible

Now you're just getting annoying.

Change the ****ing title of the thread if you don't actually want to talk about suicide.

Bruce.... I've sent you a PM.

Don't bother with the PMs, just answer the points I made or change the title of the thread to The Feel Good Suicide Circle Jerk.

You no doubt have all the best intentions in the world but as long as we live in society, in it's current form, suicide is going to continue to be a major issue and it's only going to get worse. By saying things like 'Suicide IS preventable' you are writing suicide off as an aberration rather than the inevitable outcome of the system we live in.

Your attitude is reinforcing the taboos, dismissing the actual causes of suicide, and holding us back from making the changes that need to be made on a societal level.

Let's actually TALK about suicide and not continue to reinforce stereotypes.

Bruce..... Right now you sound very BPD.

You seem to be very "black and white" in your thinking.

Are you having a tough time at the moment?

Please quote where I am black and white in my thinking. I think I've stated my opinion and tried to back it up with my reasoning.

For contrast, here is an example of black and white thinking:

Suicide IS preventable

It's an incredibly complex topic that you are trying to reduce to a buzz phrase. I'm trying to address that complexity. I have no idea what you trying to do.

You are actually being incredibly insulting. Rather than discuss things you are trying to suggest that my mental health means that you can't engage in a rational conversation. You don't want to engage, you want to win. All the while simultaneously seeming to be caring and thoughtful. It's really quite manipulative.

Or maybe not. Maybe you are genuinely trying to be helpful but I have to tell you you are coming across as uninformed and naive. If that's the case I would suggest you have another look at what I and others have written and try to understand that when it comes to suicide there is a far wider world out there than your own limited viewpoint.

Bruce.... Not everyone who has poor mental health kills themselves. Not everyone who face adversity in their lives kills themselves. Not everyone who reaches crisis point kills themselves.

The people who survive, the people who don't kill themselves are doing something different. They have learnt some protective skill or protective behaviour that prevents them from killing themselves. Otherwise every single person who faces adversity would kill themselves.

I'm really interested in your experience. What makes you think that death by suicide is inevitable?

Bruce..... I must leave the computer for a bit. I'll check again in a few hours.

I feel that you are in crisis at the moment. If you are.... Please read this: It will only take 5 minutes.

https://www.metanoia.org/suicide/

What makes you think that death by suicide is inevitable?

I never said it was. I said that a byproduct of our current system is suicide. We have a 'Work or Starve' based economy and society exacts pressure on everyone. Those who can support themselves are under constant pressure to continue to be able to support themselves and not become a 'drain' on those around them. Those who can't support themselves are made to feel guilty for being a 'drain'. We boil everyone's value to society down to how much tax we pay. In this environment it's inevitable that some people are going to kill themselves.

And in this highly pressurised environment we expect people to raise children. How are people supposed to raise children in a loving environment when so much of the rest of their lives is deeply unpleasant? This leads to another generation with mental health issues and the cycle continues.

I feel that you are in crisis at the moment.

I'm not in crisis. I'm just sick of people promoting sticking plasters as a solution to a massively complex and destructive problem.

Here's an exercise for you. Almost every argument against suicide seems to boil down to two things. 'Think about what you'll do to your family and friends.' 'Things will get better.'

How do you persuade someone not to kill themselves without using these two arguments?

Rephrase the question. Instead of asking 'Why do people kill themselves?' try asking 'Why don't people kill themselves?' What is a positive argument for continuing to live?

Simon, I'm going to agree with Bruce here, and add that you are coming across as massively condescending. This may not be your intention, but I'm letting you know that that's how your posts read.

Some people's internal mental chemistry cannot be altered sufficiently to allow them to exist peacefully and happily in the society that we have created, in the same way that some people are born with a genetic makeup that means no matter what they do, they will get cancer. To try and reduce an incredibly complex and emotional issue to pithy soundbites and generic motivational quotes designed to make you feel better and less helpless about the issue is trite and insulting.

I'm sure you mean well, but please, try to understand the point being made.

So...........

Simon, i've speed blitzed through the training, it's one i've done before as part of a "staff welfare" training day.

I can see the friction and its possible causes between the above posters, perhaps by Simon using the word "suicide" in the thread title he's normalising it a little more in daily conversation and thus decreasing its taboo, but i do agree that suicide is not always preventable & the thought that it can be decreased to zero is unrealistic. With the profile of it being raised then it can likely be decreased, but not erased.

I find "suicide survivor" a weird one, call me pedantic, but suicide means dead, you don't really survive death generally, but i'm sure it's a nice marketing catch phrase.

A couple of points i picked up on from the training:

The estimated cost to the UK economy of the death by suicide of a working age adult is £1.7 million.

Typical Government / NHS motivation to act.

I agree its got to be a healthy step to actually use the word “suicide” in conversation more to normalise its use & encourage conversation around it, along with death, we avoid it in this country until its too late, and then its all hushed tones and stiff upper lip. It's only generally used by health care professionals in conversations at crisis point, there's no conversation around peoples threshold to suicide whilst they're well, which would give an idea of where they'll turn to in crisis and how quickly.

The training mentions taking someone to A&E, a vast amount of people in repeat crisis refuse to attend A&E due to poor previous experiences there. This isn't really a reflection upon the A&E staff who are flat out & under staffed, but they'll triage according to need & more often than not the mental health crisis patient will be lower down the list. Access to a specialist mental health emergency assessment facility would be the gold standard, but the current system has no provision for this despite the countries police forces citing its need.

Talking therapies exist & i'm sure are key to overcoming suicidal urges, be it lover, friend college etc. Professional talking therapies are difficult to access via your GP / NHS, you'll get offered medication (which some see as masking the symptoms, not fixing them, or, a well needed breather, or, the start of dependence), a course of CBT, a short course of counselling sessions, psychotherapy is lengthy & i'm unaware if its commonly offered on the NHS, most of these professional talking therapies will have a lengthy wait to commence & that doesn't help those in acute crisis. They are available privately, at cost. The NHS mental health provision is a net with huge gaping holes in it, that's no secret.

Bottom line is, if someone's will is to end it all you won't deter them. There will of course be lots more whose will is not so strong & fixed, and with assistance & support these people can be deterred from committing suicide.

On a positive note the disagreements above are a healthy discussion of suicide as they highlight the different views held. There is no one hat fits, no single cure, but many aspects to poor / deteriorating mental health.

Simon - a personal question = why did you post the thread? Have you lost someone to suicide, professional interest, both? It may help the others understand your stance.

Well done on starting the thread & keep an open mind to others perceptions and experiences as these will reflect the real world realities which may not all fit in with the training you linked to.

Bottom line is, if someone’s will is to end it all you won’t deter them.

This 👆

Afternoon all.

Back from a very wet ride. Now dried off and have a hot cup of tea in hand, so I can spend a bit of time chatting now.

I created this post as a direct result of a post started by another user. The poster had detailed at length their difficulties and they had used a few phrases that set my alarm bells ringing. The poster hadn't expressly used the word "suicide" but it was clear that they were in a bad place. I had a look at the posters other listing and was worried more still. Other posters did offer advice. "Buying a cat" was even offered as a solution to the posters problems, but at no time did anyone actually say the words "are you thinking of killing yourself."

I think this was my "walking along the bridge" moment. I wasn't going to walk on by with someone stuck on a electronic ledge and I PM'd the poster. We had a chat and I think it helped him a little. During our chat he mentioned that there were indeed people around him that could help. I was a little reassured by this but I know from personal experience that even people who have "people around them" still kill themselves.

I've had 4 people in my life who have killed themselves. One of which was a biker and user of this website. He had a wife and 2 small kids. He was loved. He had a wide circle of friends. He was fit and physically healthly. He was financially comfortable BUT he was a BLOKE and whenever he experienced ANY stress in his life he would drink and go on massive benders. He had never even considered seeing a therapist. Never talked about his mental health and never learnt any other coping strategy other than to self destruct. I dont believe for one minute that he wanted to die. I dont believe that he wanted to pass on his pain to his wife. I dont believe that he wanted to put his own sons at higher risk of the same fate. What I do know is that at the time of his death he would have wanted his feelings to stop and that the only way he knew how to make the feelings stop was to kill himself. As it is, he will never know peace as he is dead. You cant feel at peace if you are dead.

My interest is also professional. I've been teaching for over 20 years now and can remember every suicidal child i've ever talked to. Some are still alive. Some are not. I'm considering a move into working in Mental Health Services but I don't know if i'm brave enough, strong enough or knowledgeable enough to do so.

In amongst all the Posts on this website about "What tyres for...." and "Should I buy a pizza oven".... there are really important topics that stick out and need talking about. I also firmly believe that this website should have a "I need help" button or at least a permanent sticky post for mental health help.

There will be people RIGHT NOW who are thinking about killing themselves and they are (hopefully) reading this post. At least 3 people who have read this post have taken the training I signposted at the beginning. Also at least 2 people have checked in with a friend they have been worried about. As I indicated, in my original post.... outdoorsy people usually have first-aid qualifications coming out of our ears. We can put broken bones back together or bandage cuts/grazes but we are not so good at starting a conversation about suicide. We all need to get better at talking about our mental health.

The odds are that at least 1 person with suicidal thoughts is reading this post right now. They ALREADY think that Suicide is NOT preventable. I hope that talking like this challenges their thoughts and that they start to see that suicide can be prevented with the right help.

On Dignitas, it’s not dignified at all. It’s not a beautiful glass and steel clinic high on an Alp, they hire flats in Swiss towns and do the deeds there until the neighbours complain about the stream of bodies going out of the back door and Dignitas moves on.

Yeah but sadly for those that can afford it and have the support to get there, it's the most dignified way for people who wish to follow that path. Just found out I'm going to be interviewed under caution because I took my brother and sister in law to the airport on the first part of her last journey ☹️

@iolo that is superb. After Uni, I struggled a lot with the prospect of a desk job for the rest of my life. It never got to that point, but having worked in ski resorts (which I loved just for being in the mountains, rather than the trimmings of season life) I always thought if I get to that state, I'll just bin everything and move back to Austria. I am highly envious in an accepting way. Danube is on my list for a cycle trip, I may noise you up in the future.

In the last six months I've lost any inhibitions about admitting I was depressed. In fact knowing what I do now about anxiety and depression I can't believe I haven't been diagnosed properly in the last 55 or do years. I have come to believe that there's a niche in the market for people planning a life change such as retirement, relocation etc. to take a one-day course, which would give them a more realistic assessment of their mental strength to deal with those events. Once I'm settled I might even offer a course, I guess I'd need to get some qualifications first or do it under the umbrella of another self-help organisation. It's a scandal that employers don't offer this to any employee over 55. You could run courses at companies couldn't you!

Interestingly all the articles I've read mention familial traits and childhood trauma such as being sent to boarding school, both of which apply to me. I believe boarding school stunts emotional articulacy and makes former boarders even less able to discuss their worries than non-boarders.

Not everyone who has poor mental health kills themselves. Not everyone who face adversity in their lives kills themselves. Not everyone who reaches crisis point kills themselves.

The people who survive, the people who don’t kill themselves are doing something different. They have learnt some protective skill or protective behaviour that prevents them from killing themselves.

So the ones that do just didn't learn? Sorry but that's utter shite and so offensive it's hard not to think it's a wind up. What you are basically doing is victim blaming, placing the fault on the person rather than the system. Not everyone can be saved but the ones who can't aren't to be blamed, this is the 'selfish' argument from another angle.

And sorry but a free internet "course" is nothing more than fluff. By all means use it as a way to gain some understanding but don't be under the illusion it qualifies you for anything. Even the mental health "professionals" who have gone through years of training can, and do, frequently get it wrong. Mental health care is a disgrace in this country, so many people are too focused on fitting something into a box rather than making a proper diagnosis and as a result do more talking than listening.

I've dealt with a lot of suicidal disclosures and had a fair bit of suicide/MHFA training working with kids in care and students at a university. It's very important to be careful and sensetive with your language when talking to people who you think might be suicidal. If I was to ask every depressed student I talked to if they were feeling suicidal, as some would have us do, I would likely cause as many suicides as I prevent. Those who wanted to talk about suicide were enabled to do so in as safe a way as possible, those who didn't wish to do so had their wishes respected by not being hassled about it all the time, because suicide isn't the problem, the problem is whatever causes someone to seek suicide as a solution and that's the problem that should be focused on. Of course, this is very individual and requires a lot of work, rather than easy campaigns and nice sounding goals.
When talking to someone who you believe to be suicidal, it's important to distinguish between thinking about suicide and planning suicide. This is why, when someone tells you they're feeling suicidal, you should feel no shame in asking them how they plan to do it, as this can tell you a lot about how close they are to doing it.
I think pretty much all of us have thought about suicide at some point in our lives. How many of us have actively sat down and planned it out though? How many of us have gone to B&Q to buy rope? This is what has been alluded to earlier in the thread, that the planning stage of suicide tends to bring about a state of calm, the relief of finding a solution to your problem.
For a lot of people, suicide is their solution to whatever problem they're trying to deal with. Sometimes it's pretty rational, sometimes not rational at all.
Rather than arbitrarily asking someone if they're feeling suicidal, we should be asking them if there's anything we can help them with, try to shoulder a little of their burden with them. If they are truly planning a suicide and want someone to talk them out of it, you won't have to ask a list of questions about it, you just have to make yourself available and listen.
Unfortunately, some people have decided and don't want to be talked out of it, so no-one will know until it's too late, but that is their choice.
We will never reduce suicides to zero, but we can try to do better to help people find different solutions to their problems.

Fin25.... Interesting points.

I think you are right. We need to be sensitive when talking to someone who may be suicidal. Can I check what you mean about "causing more suicides than I prevent." Do you mean that if you ask someone if they are suicidal then they are at greater risk of killing themselves? Have I read that correctly?

I'm just saying that all these "zero suicide" campaigns are at risk of turning suicide into another box to be ticked by professionals when talking to people who may be suffering serious problems, which can erode trust and damage the sort of good relationships that would likely foster suicidal disclosure.

Fin...... Its a really important point you raise. Is it more likely that someone will kill themselves if you ask the question.... "Are you feeling suicidal?"

Impossible question to answer without some pretty dark research.
However, the way in which we bring up the subject of suicide with people who are dealing with problems is very important. If the conversation moves towards talking about suicide and you feel it is appropriate to ask, fine. But if it feels like you are asking about suicide to tick a box, you are going to do harm to the trust people feel in you and they may be less likely to disclose suicidal thoughts in future.

For anyone who is trying to find a way of talking to someone they are concerned about.

MIND has produced a handy guide. They state very clearly that asking someone if they are having suicidal thoughts or are planning to kill themselves is the RIGHT thing to do.

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/helping-someone-else/supporting-someone-who-feels-suicidal/talking-about-suicidal-feelings/

That's a great leaflet.

Just to make it clear, I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't talk to people about suicide. I'm suggesting that these "zero suicide" campaigns tend to push professionals into a standardisation mode where they'll ask "the suicide question" as a matter of procedure when dealing with mentally ill people. I am expressing concern at the focus being too heavily on preventing suicide in general and forgetting the individual people that need professionals' help with their problems. Target based public health approaches tend to dehumanise people, making them less likely to ask for help when they really need it. For example, we should ask someone if they're thinking about suicide if we think that they are suicidal. We should not ask someone if they're thinking about about suicide just because they're schizophrenic or otherwise mentally ill. I've lost count of the amount of people that have complained to me about the number of professionals who have asked them if they are suicidal when they have presented with literally no reasons for anyone to be concerned about suicide. If people in the mental health system lose faith in the question it loses its power when you might need it most.

Of course, if you are talking to someone and you think they are suicidal, by all means ask them, that's a very important message.

Seen this a few days ago.
I’ll say something without reading all the above because it’s hard for me to read.
Just want to put something here so I’m part of the conversation though.
If I were to give anyone any advice it would be to see a counsellor.
I have not done so.
The thing is, with me, I’m either massively motivated and hard working or absolutely nothing.
I have a lovely girlfriend and two wonderful young children.
I am very happy.
But one day I'm fine then the next I’ll be an absolute shit and stay out and get so drunk that my partner doesn’t talk to me for 3 weeks.
Then the cycle continues.
Forgive me please because I’m just typing.
My dad committed suicide when I was 2.
Brother was less than 1.
I’ve never hated my dad.

Since 14 I’ve had a massive desire to commit suicide.

Bullied at school. Teenage shit is shit but I really want to ****ing strangle the guys that threw me in a pit and laughed as they walked away.
Forgive me if this doesn’t make any sense in sentences commas etc.

It’s from the heart.