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I did say that it's possible the majority of suicides are of the 'permanent solution to a temporary problem' type.
Probably another sizeable chunk are 'rational' decisions where the person knows that their suffering is not going to get any better any time soon.
I still think that society makes us miserable and a good number of suicides come from this. We have a 'work or starve' based economy where people a terrified of losing their jobs and not being able to pay their mortgage. And these are the people who are lucky enough to have a job. If they don't they are constantly pressured to find work, any work, and to stop being a drain on everyone else.
The vast majority of people I know hate their jobs. The majority have money worries to a greater or lesser extent. Sure, you can say things will get better. You can also say things will get worse. The underlying system is always going to be there and it is always going to cause people to kill themselves.
We need a fundamental shift in attitudes across the world. Until that happens can we please stop pretending that all suicide is preventable.
Sure, we do what we can to try to help each other along. But things are not going to get any better.
Totally agree, to me this is a societal problem.
there will always be some who will make the choice that life won't get better (rightly or wrongly doesn't really matter).
I do strongly feel that outside of the severe mental illnesses the pressure that exist within current society have to be responsible.
The views that you must achieve x in your life.Ithink a universal basic income should be in place too.
These pressures must make what would be less severe illness much worse which then could lead to suicide.
I do think things will get better as with more awareness things should change.
Am hopeful
I don't go a month, a week if I'm being honest, without feeling mildly suicidal. It's always something that's there in the back of my mind. Weirdly when my Anxiety is bad, I tell myself "it's okay, if things get really bad you can throw yourself of that bridge... you know the one" and that makes me feel better. Sounds fun, I know.
My first real brush with it was in 2009, I'd smashed myself into bits on my MTB and I'd been in quiet a lot of pain for 6 months, it seemed endless. I'd be back at the hospital every 6 weeks or so, every time I'd build myself up for good news and they'd always cut me down with the same old, same old. It wasn't healing, it was getting worse, there was nothing that could be done. It was a rough old time, I'd been made redundant from a job that represented a lot of my self-worth, like now the news was just one tale of woe after another and there had been a bit of a personal revelation of sorts. A few years earlier as my friends had started to settle down, get married, have Kids etc the rest of us mostly pitied them, but the tide had turned, the vast majority of use had now gone down that road and where are before you'd assume it would be the pub, club, weekend away, party etc etc every weekend, now it was often a case of begging your mates to come out, or more often than not, not and there I was single AF, never having had a decent relationship and now I was a 'cripple'. So there I found myself. Physically Broken, Financially Broke, lonely and living back home with Mum because I couldn't afford to live anywhere else and frankly I could barely look after myself.
I'd chosen my method, I didn't want it to look like suicide, it would be too hard for my friends and family, and I also didn't want to leave behind bills for funerals and all that and I knew my pension 'death in service' benefit didn't cover suicide. So I decided I'd just ride my Motorbike into bridge, I knew which one, you don't need much of a run up with a 600cc Sportsbike, but it had plenty, there would be no chance of surviving it. The only problem was I'd become so relaxed about the whole thing, coupled with all the Tramadol I'd told my poor Mum my plan as is if it was the most normal thing in the world. She'd be beside herself every time I took my bike out, I just never put 2 and 2 together that a) she'd be worried or b) she'd care.
I've read posts, that I won't highlight that I get the impression that some people would think it would have been okay - I was never going to 100% recover from my accident, I never have, I'm still in pain, but a lot, lot less and there's a couple, of frankly fairly meaningless things I'll never be able to do again. What I've had to do, is accept change, well as best I can.
In my own opinion, there's a huge difference between Suicide, and Self-Euthanasia. Ending your life to escape a few months of horrible, withering painful death is a perfectly rational thing to do. Ending your life because of a massive, forced lifestyle change, even one that ends in a terminal illness years down the road, isn't. It's not personal choice, It's depression causing you to give up all the joy and happiness you could experience in what time you have left.
For me, it would have been a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The deepest, darkest hole I'd ever fallen into, one that seemed impossible to escape, took, maybe 6 months to get out of, it's been far from plain sailing but I've experience more joy and happiness in the last 11 years than sadness and pain. Frankly, despite having a brain chemistry that likes a bit of melancholy.
Respect is due for sharing P-Jay, good to hear you're in a better place now.
I've discussed this with the op and assured him I have no intention of doing anything silly as I have a son and wife and family but if I could find a way to stop my torment now I would gladly take it as I've had enough.
The title of this thread is ‘Let’s talk about suicide’
Like every other thread on suicide, people don’t want to talk about suicide.
Contrary to the thread title, it doesn't look like the OP wanted to talk about suicide either. What I think they actually wanted to talk about was one particular stance on suicide prevention. Absolutely well intentioned and I'm not criticising that but a misleading title and further evidence of the continuing taboo.
Some great thought provoking answers ...I, like many others, have often had enough having lived many decades with A+D -----I've researched the options but would only go there after exhausting every other avenue and now find that meditation and gratitude help the world feel a little more manageable for the time being.
As said earlier ..for many people life is fairly miserable ... because of the way our system works , and if you have no purpose then daily existence involving unsatisfying work ,stress and worry is nothing to be relished . Our society is full of messages from day 1 regarding what will make you happy but these things don't work for many despite them working all their lives to try and get there. Peace of mind is the holy grail but will live in a world full of uncertainty and constant change so if we think we can control that we'll end up being disappointed.
Best to work on your mind imho which is the source of so much suffering .
Just my thoughts (well ..and the Buddha's too !)
It’s hideously pithy and throw away but a phrase that always resonated with me is “suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.”
I'll raise another voice of dissent.
My mate Mick is 3 years gone. I'd known him for years but never knew until near the end that he suffered from hideous levels of depression his entire life. In the end he was taking **** knows what (he got really into legal highs just before they got banned) and one night just decided to write a letter and string himself up on the washing line. That was that. He'd just had enough.
Trying to rationalise suicide is utterly hopeless, it's not rational, it's not reasonable, it's just there. Some folk want help, others don't. Some people get out the hole but for others it only gets deeper. It's a horrible, horrible thing and it always hurts, you always wonder if there was something you could have done but that's just, again, trying to rationalise it. All I can say is that by being open about mental health, not judging people, looking after yourself and looking after those around you maybe we would see less lives lost. If society doesn't give a shit why should they?
For anyone who isn't currently suffering from major mental health problems, I recently heard an unexpected, inspiring comment from the UFC fighter Israel Adesanya. On why he sees a therapist, he explained with an analogy along the lines of "you don't wait for your teeth to fall out then go to a dentist, you go to the dentist before you get problems and work to maintain the health of your teeth. Mental health should be the same and you work at it before you get ill"
Now we don't all have access to therapists but the concept of working to maintain your mental health before you suffer is an obvious but great reminder.
Best to work on your mind imho which is the source of so much suffering .
Just my thoughts (well ..and the Buddha’s too !)
I think everyone could benefit from this (and i'm as atheist as they come). Learning to still ones mind and to reach the realisation that your external circumstances are utterly irrelevant to your suffering (or at least should be) is going to help most people tremendously. Continue further down this path and you eventually aim to realise there is no 'you' to suffer! (but I digress)
Personally, i'm at a stage of understanding the above to be true academically, but it will take more work to really feel it to be true in my daily life.
Sorry my post is general mental health related rather than suicide specific.
Of course, you only have to consider these ideas if you genuinely want to TALK about suicide
Sounds like lets talk, but about it how ?.
It's internal thought process and while there are many people offering help, it is something you need to arrive at yourself. As in not 😆
Had an interesting situation, just before this pandemic, riding out of Glasgow city, across the wee suspension bridge. Usual, weave in and out, past the woman with the pram, past the couple standing in the middle, and a guy and girl standing there too, but the girl was on the wrong side of the railing.
Hang on.
Turns about and rode back to them
Ive stood on a bridge, on the wrong side. Pontcysyllte Aqueduct to be exact. I was in a secure unit there and made a break for it.
Only thing I could think to say was something shocking, which I shant repeat, but enough for her to stop looking at the water and look at me. And went on to explain that life improves. Basically keep her attention off the idea of plummeting into the Clyde until trained people, police etc arrived to talk her down.
I do wish though I had more of an idea of what to say though, as you can start talking, but words have a habit of being turned around or can lead to other ideas, so knowing what or how to direct a conversation would have been very helpful.
I just added my bit to help, it was the chap who initially stopped deserves the praise for helping. I just couldnt ride on unconcerned.
As it was a cop appears at my shoulder - Not often Im relieved to see a copper 😆
All went well from there and they took over from this chap and myself.
So what do you say 😕 Life is great ?, no it isnt, certainly not if your actually gotten to the point of climbing to other side of a safety railing.
PJay..... I never said thanks for your post. Really honest and brave of you to write what you have.
Thank-you.
I've just found this podcast. Thought it might be useful to all here. Again, it shows that suicide is preventable and that recovery is possible. (It's the story of footballer Clarke Carlisle and his wife.) 27 minutes long. Well worth a listen.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0004f2q
The OP very kindly showed concern for me a couple of days ago when I posted certain things on my self-pity thread. Nothing has improved since then except that I've got a cold Brewdog IPA in my hand, which is a considerable morale boost.
I have to find a way to deal with my remorse.... a bad decision in February saw us embarking on a course of action, which is likely to blow all our savings and put us in an uncomfortable place for quite a few months. Had we been wiser we would now be snuggled up in our warm cosy secure house with cash in the bank and looking forward to Christmas with our son.
So I need a way of coping with this. Meds are helping a little more each day but I still need a way of coping with the bitter remorse. You couldn't have screwed up your life any worse than I have.
But wierdly right now I'm feeling strangely upbeat, which is an encouraging sign. It's pissing down outside and we are heading into lockdown again. It must be a positive sign that I've reacted well to today's bad stuff?
On suicide, I think about it, can't deny that and I bet many others do too but it is such a selfish act and would destroy my family especially my son who is on the threshold of a great life.
On Dignitas, it's not dignified at all. It's not a beautiful glass and steel clinic high on an Alp, they hire flats in Swiss towns and do the deeds there until the neighbours complain about the stream of bodies going out of the back door and Dignitas moves on.
Again, it shows that suicide is preventable and that recovery is possible
Now you're just getting annoying.
Change the ****ing title of the thread if you don't actually want to talk about suicide.
Bruce.... I've sent you a PM.
Don't bother with the PMs, just answer the points I made or change the title of the thread to The Feel Good Suicide Circle Jerk.
You no doubt have all the best intentions in the world but as long as we live in society, in it's current form, suicide is going to continue to be a major issue and it's only going to get worse. By saying things like 'Suicide IS preventable' you are writing suicide off as an aberration rather than the inevitable outcome of the system we live in.
Your attitude is reinforcing the taboos, dismissing the actual causes of suicide, and holding us back from making the changes that need to be made on a societal level.
Let's actually TALK about suicide and not continue to reinforce stereotypes.
Bruce..... Right now you sound very BPD.
You seem to be very "black and white" in your thinking.
Are you having a tough time at the moment?
Please quote where I am black and white in my thinking. I think I've stated my opinion and tried to back it up with my reasoning.
For contrast, here is an example of black and white thinking:
Suicide IS preventable
It's an incredibly complex topic that you are trying to reduce to a buzz phrase. I'm trying to address that complexity. I have no idea what you trying to do.
You are actually being incredibly insulting. Rather than discuss things you are trying to suggest that my mental health means that you can't engage in a rational conversation. You don't want to engage, you want to win. All the while simultaneously seeming to be caring and thoughtful. It's really quite manipulative.
Or maybe not. Maybe you are genuinely trying to be helpful but I have to tell you you are coming across as uninformed and naive. If that's the case I would suggest you have another look at what I and others have written and try to understand that when it comes to suicide there is a far wider world out there than your own limited viewpoint.
Bruce.... Not everyone who has poor mental health kills themselves. Not everyone who face adversity in their lives kills themselves. Not everyone who reaches crisis point kills themselves.
The people who survive, the people who don't kill themselves are doing something different. They have learnt some protective skill or protective behaviour that prevents them from killing themselves. Otherwise every single person who faces adversity would kill themselves.
I'm really interested in your experience. What makes you think that death by suicide is inevitable?
Bruce..... I must leave the computer for a bit. I'll check again in a few hours.
I feel that you are in crisis at the moment. If you are.... Please read this: It will only take 5 minutes.
https://www.metanoia.org/suicide/
What makes you think that death by suicide is inevitable?
I never said it was. I said that a byproduct of our current system is suicide. We have a 'Work or Starve' based economy and society exacts pressure on everyone. Those who can support themselves are under constant pressure to continue to be able to support themselves and not become a 'drain' on those around them. Those who can't support themselves are made to feel guilty for being a 'drain'. We boil everyone's value to society down to how much tax we pay. In this environment it's inevitable that some people are going to kill themselves.
And in this highly pressurised environment we expect people to raise children. How are people supposed to raise children in a loving environment when so much of the rest of their lives is deeply unpleasant? This leads to another generation with mental health issues and the cycle continues.
I feel that you are in crisis at the moment.
I'm not in crisis. I'm just sick of people promoting sticking plasters as a solution to a massively complex and destructive problem.
Here's an exercise for you. Almost every argument against suicide seems to boil down to two things. 'Think about what you'll do to your family and friends.' 'Things will get better.'
How do you persuade someone not to kill themselves without using these two arguments?
Rephrase the question. Instead of asking 'Why do people kill themselves?' try asking 'Why don't people kill themselves?' What is a positive argument for continuing to live?
Simon, I'm going to agree with Bruce here, and add that you are coming across as massively condescending. This may not be your intention, but I'm letting you know that that's how your posts read.
Some people's internal mental chemistry cannot be altered sufficiently to allow them to exist peacefully and happily in the society that we have created, in the same way that some people are born with a genetic makeup that means no matter what they do, they will get cancer. To try and reduce an incredibly complex and emotional issue to pithy soundbites and generic motivational quotes designed to make you feel better and less helpless about the issue is trite and insulting.
I'm sure you mean well, but please, try to understand the point being made.
So...........
Simon, i've speed blitzed through the training, it's one i've done before as part of a "staff welfare" training day.
I can see the friction and its possible causes between the above posters, perhaps by Simon using the word "suicide" in the thread title he's normalising it a little more in daily conversation and thus decreasing its taboo, but i do agree that suicide is not always preventable & the thought that it can be decreased to zero is unrealistic. With the profile of it being raised then it can likely be decreased, but not erased.
I find "suicide survivor" a weird one, call me pedantic, but suicide means dead, you don't really survive death generally, but i'm sure it's a nice marketing catch phrase.
A couple of points i picked up on from the training:
The estimated cost to the UK economy of the death by suicide of a working age adult is £1.7 million.
Typical Government / NHS motivation to act.
I agree its got to be a healthy step to actually use the word “suicide” in conversation more to normalise its use & encourage conversation around it, along with death, we avoid it in this country until its too late, and then its all hushed tones and stiff upper lip. It's only generally used by health care professionals in conversations at crisis point, there's no conversation around peoples threshold to suicide whilst they're well, which would give an idea of where they'll turn to in crisis and how quickly.
The training mentions taking someone to A&E, a vast amount of people in repeat crisis refuse to attend A&E due to poor previous experiences there. This isn't really a reflection upon the A&E staff who are flat out & under staffed, but they'll triage according to need & more often than not the mental health crisis patient will be lower down the list. Access to a specialist mental health emergency assessment facility would be the gold standard, but the current system has no provision for this despite the countries police forces citing its need.
Talking therapies exist & i'm sure are key to overcoming suicidal urges, be it lover, friend college etc. Professional talking therapies are difficult to access via your GP / NHS, you'll get offered medication (which some see as masking the symptoms, not fixing them, or, a well needed breather, or, the start of dependence), a course of CBT, a short course of counselling sessions, psychotherapy is lengthy & i'm unaware if its commonly offered on the NHS, most of these professional talking therapies will have a lengthy wait to commence & that doesn't help those in acute crisis. They are available privately, at cost. The NHS mental health provision is a net with huge gaping holes in it, that's no secret.
Bottom line is, if someone's will is to end it all you won't deter them. There will of course be lots more whose will is not so strong & fixed, and with assistance & support these people can be deterred from committing suicide.
On a positive note the disagreements above are a healthy discussion of suicide as they highlight the different views held. There is no one hat fits, no single cure, but many aspects to poor / deteriorating mental health.
Simon - a personal question = why did you post the thread? Have you lost someone to suicide, professional interest, both? It may help the others understand your stance.
Well done on starting the thread & keep an open mind to others perceptions and experiences as these will reflect the real world realities which may not all fit in with the training you linked to.
Bottom line is, if someone’s will is to end it all you won’t deter them.
This 👆
Afternoon all.
Back from a very wet ride. Now dried off and have a hot cup of tea in hand, so I can spend a bit of time chatting now.
I created this post as a direct result of a post started by another user. The poster had detailed at length their difficulties and they had used a few phrases that set my alarm bells ringing. The poster hadn't expressly used the word "suicide" but it was clear that they were in a bad place. I had a look at the posters other listing and was worried more still. Other posters did offer advice. "Buying a cat" was even offered as a solution to the posters problems, but at no time did anyone actually say the words "are you thinking of killing yourself."
I think this was my "walking along the bridge" moment. I wasn't going to walk on by with someone stuck on a electronic ledge and I PM'd the poster. We had a chat and I think it helped him a little. During our chat he mentioned that there were indeed people around him that could help. I was a little reassured by this but I know from personal experience that even people who have "people around them" still kill themselves.
I've had 4 people in my life who have killed themselves. One of which was a biker and user of this website. He had a wife and 2 small kids. He was loved. He had a wide circle of friends. He was fit and physically healthly. He was financially comfortable BUT he was a BLOKE and whenever he experienced ANY stress in his life he would drink and go on massive benders. He had never even considered seeing a therapist. Never talked about his mental health and never learnt any other coping strategy other than to self destruct. I dont believe for one minute that he wanted to die. I dont believe that he wanted to pass on his pain to his wife. I dont believe that he wanted to put his own sons at higher risk of the same fate. What I do know is that at the time of his death he would have wanted his feelings to stop and that the only way he knew how to make the feelings stop was to kill himself. As it is, he will never know peace as he is dead. You cant feel at peace if you are dead.
My interest is also professional. I've been teaching for over 20 years now and can remember every suicidal child i've ever talked to. Some are still alive. Some are not. I'm considering a move into working in Mental Health Services but I don't know if i'm brave enough, strong enough or knowledgeable enough to do so.
In amongst all the Posts on this website about "What tyres for...." and "Should I buy a pizza oven".... there are really important topics that stick out and need talking about. I also firmly believe that this website should have a "I need help" button or at least a permanent sticky post for mental health help.
There will be people RIGHT NOW who are thinking about killing themselves and they are (hopefully) reading this post. At least 3 people who have read this post have taken the training I signposted at the beginning. Also at least 2 people have checked in with a friend they have been worried about. As I indicated, in my original post.... outdoorsy people usually have first-aid qualifications coming out of our ears. We can put broken bones back together or bandage cuts/grazes but we are not so good at starting a conversation about suicide. We all need to get better at talking about our mental health.
The odds are that at least 1 person with suicidal thoughts is reading this post right now. They ALREADY think that Suicide is NOT preventable. I hope that talking like this challenges their thoughts and that they start to see that suicide can be prevented with the right help.
On Dignitas, it’s not dignified at all. It’s not a beautiful glass and steel clinic high on an Alp, they hire flats in Swiss towns and do the deeds there until the neighbours complain about the stream of bodies going out of the back door and Dignitas moves on.
Yeah but sadly for those that can afford it and have the support to get there, it's the most dignified way for people who wish to follow that path. Just found out I'm going to be interviewed under caution because I took my brother and sister in law to the airport on the first part of her last journey ☹️
@iolo that is superb. After Uni, I struggled a lot with the prospect of a desk job for the rest of my life. It never got to that point, but having worked in ski resorts (which I loved just for being in the mountains, rather than the trimmings of season life) I always thought if I get to that state, I'll just bin everything and move back to Austria. I am highly envious in an accepting way. Danube is on my list for a cycle trip, I may noise you up in the future.
In the last six months I've lost any inhibitions about admitting I was depressed. In fact knowing what I do now about anxiety and depression I can't believe I haven't been diagnosed properly in the last 55 or do years. I have come to believe that there's a niche in the market for people planning a life change such as retirement, relocation etc. to take a one-day course, which would give them a more realistic assessment of their mental strength to deal with those events. Once I'm settled I might even offer a course, I guess I'd need to get some qualifications first or do it under the umbrella of another self-help organisation. It's a scandal that employers don't offer this to any employee over 55. You could run courses at companies couldn't you!
Interestingly all the articles I've read mention familial traits and childhood trauma such as being sent to boarding school, both of which apply to me. I believe boarding school stunts emotional articulacy and makes former boarders even less able to discuss their worries than non-boarders.
Not everyone who has poor mental health kills themselves. Not everyone who face adversity in their lives kills themselves. Not everyone who reaches crisis point kills themselves.
The people who survive, the people who don’t kill themselves are doing something different. They have learnt some protective skill or protective behaviour that prevents them from killing themselves.
So the ones that do just didn't learn? Sorry but that's utter shite and so offensive it's hard not to think it's a wind up. What you are basically doing is victim blaming, placing the fault on the person rather than the system. Not everyone can be saved but the ones who can't aren't to be blamed, this is the 'selfish' argument from another angle.
And sorry but a free internet "course" is nothing more than fluff. By all means use it as a way to gain some understanding but don't be under the illusion it qualifies you for anything. Even the mental health "professionals" who have gone through years of training can, and do, frequently get it wrong. Mental health care is a disgrace in this country, so many people are too focused on fitting something into a box rather than making a proper diagnosis and as a result do more talking than listening.
I've dealt with a lot of suicidal disclosures and had a fair bit of suicide/MHFA training working with kids in care and students at a university. It's very important to be careful and sensetive with your language when talking to people who you think might be suicidal. If I was to ask every depressed student I talked to if they were feeling suicidal, as some would have us do, I would likely cause as many suicides as I prevent. Those who wanted to talk about suicide were enabled to do so in as safe a way as possible, those who didn't wish to do so had their wishes respected by not being hassled about it all the time, because suicide isn't the problem, the problem is whatever causes someone to seek suicide as a solution and that's the problem that should be focused on. Of course, this is very individual and requires a lot of work, rather than easy campaigns and nice sounding goals.
When talking to someone who you believe to be suicidal, it's important to distinguish between thinking about suicide and planning suicide. This is why, when someone tells you they're feeling suicidal, you should feel no shame in asking them how they plan to do it, as this can tell you a lot about how close they are to doing it.
I think pretty much all of us have thought about suicide at some point in our lives. How many of us have actively sat down and planned it out though? How many of us have gone to B&Q to buy rope? This is what has been alluded to earlier in the thread, that the planning stage of suicide tends to bring about a state of calm, the relief of finding a solution to your problem.
For a lot of people, suicide is their solution to whatever problem they're trying to deal with. Sometimes it's pretty rational, sometimes not rational at all.
Rather than arbitrarily asking someone if they're feeling suicidal, we should be asking them if there's anything we can help them with, try to shoulder a little of their burden with them. If they are truly planning a suicide and want someone to talk them out of it, you won't have to ask a list of questions about it, you just have to make yourself available and listen.
Unfortunately, some people have decided and don't want to be talked out of it, so no-one will know until it's too late, but that is their choice.
We will never reduce suicides to zero, but we can try to do better to help people find different solutions to their problems.
Fin25.... Interesting points.
I think you are right. We need to be sensitive when talking to someone who may be suicidal. Can I check what you mean about "causing more suicides than I prevent." Do you mean that if you ask someone if they are suicidal then they are at greater risk of killing themselves? Have I read that correctly?
I'm just saying that all these "zero suicide" campaigns are at risk of turning suicide into another box to be ticked by professionals when talking to people who may be suffering serious problems, which can erode trust and damage the sort of good relationships that would likely foster suicidal disclosure.
Fin...... Its a really important point you raise. Is it more likely that someone will kill themselves if you ask the question.... "Are you feeling suicidal?"
Impossible question to answer without some pretty dark research.
However, the way in which we bring up the subject of suicide with people who are dealing with problems is very important. If the conversation moves towards talking about suicide and you feel it is appropriate to ask, fine. But if it feels like you are asking about suicide to tick a box, you are going to do harm to the trust people feel in you and they may be less likely to disclose suicidal thoughts in future.
For anyone who is trying to find a way of talking to someone they are concerned about.
MIND has produced a handy guide. They state very clearly that asking someone if they are having suicidal thoughts or are planning to kill themselves is the RIGHT thing to do.
That's a great leaflet.
Just to make it clear, I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't talk to people about suicide. I'm suggesting that these "zero suicide" campaigns tend to push professionals into a standardisation mode where they'll ask "the suicide question" as a matter of procedure when dealing with mentally ill people. I am expressing concern at the focus being too heavily on preventing suicide in general and forgetting the individual people that need professionals' help with their problems. Target based public health approaches tend to dehumanise people, making them less likely to ask for help when they really need it. For example, we should ask someone if they're thinking about suicide if we think that they are suicidal. We should not ask someone if they're thinking about about suicide just because they're schizophrenic or otherwise mentally ill. I've lost count of the amount of people that have complained to me about the number of professionals who have asked them if they are suicidal when they have presented with literally no reasons for anyone to be concerned about suicide. If people in the mental health system lose faith in the question it loses its power when you might need it most.
Of course, if you are talking to someone and you think they are suicidal, by all means ask them, that's a very important message.
Seen this a few days ago.
I’ll say something without reading all the above because it’s hard for me to read.
Just want to put something here so I’m part of the conversation though.
If I were to give anyone any advice it would be to see a counsellor.
I have not done so.
The thing is, with me, I’m either massively motivated and hard working or absolutely nothing.
I have a lovely girlfriend and two wonderful young children.
I am very happy.
But one day I'm fine then the next I’ll be an absolute shit and stay out and get so drunk that my partner doesn’t talk to me for 3 weeks.
Then the cycle continues.
Forgive me please because I’m just typing.
My dad committed suicide when I was 2.
Brother was less than 1.
I’ve never hated my dad.
Since 14 I’ve had a massive desire to commit suicide.
Bullied at school. Teenage shit is shit but I really want to ****ing strangle the guys that threw me in a pit and laughed as they walked away.
Forgive me if this doesn’t make any sense in sentences commas etc.
It’s from the heart.
By saying things like ‘Suicide IS preventable’ you are writing suicide off as an aberration rather than the inevitable outcome of the system we live in.
It's also very dismissive of the act itself. I've never felt suicidal but I can envisage circumstances where I'd think right, I've had enough of this time to go. Why should somebody else tell me that's wrong? My life my choice.
It can also be an empowering act. For someone who has been disempowered by illness of any sort, suicide is the ultimate taking back of control, they may be unable to change the circumstances of their life but they can end it.
Now I know that many suicides can and should be prevented but to talk about zero suicide and say all can or should be prevented is dismissive of the thought processes of those individuals and sounds almost like a religious pro-life agenda.
Today's news on the BBC is very grim indeed. The suicide rate will skyrocket this winter.
Sadly I believe you are right.
the summer lockdown has a huge effect on mental health, a winter one plus loss of jobs etc has to be worse
Hi Donkey.
Just wanted to check in with you. That must have been hard to write. How are you doing today?
It’s also very dismissive of the act itself. I’ve never felt suicidal but I can envisage circumstances where I’d think right, I’ve had enough of this time to go. Why should somebody else tell me that’s wrong? My life my choice.
It can also be an empowering act. For someone who has been disempowered by illness of any sort, suicide is the ultimate taking back of control, they may be unable to change the circumstances of their life but they can end it.
Now I know that many suicides can and should be prevented but to talk about zero suicide and say all can or should be prevented is dismissive of the thought processes of those individuals and sounds almost like a religious pro-life agenda.
I think you're marking some good points there. I would challenge the religious pro-life agenda comment - there are many powerful secular argument that suicide is not morally just. The common one is that if you say suicide is morally acceptable, but then start to extend that beyond one or two cases it starts to cause massive societal harm and harm to families/friends.
It's a bit like saying "It's OK for me to drive my Hummer V8 because it's CO2 emissions are negligible on a global scale. Me changing my decision will have no impact." That is probably true but you wouldn't try and extend that to say "Owning Hummer V8s is morally sound".
I've got to the place where I believe every suicide is understandable and some even rational. But I would never try to argue for it being right and campaigning to reduce suicide is a reasonable thing to do.
For someone who has been disempowered by illness of any sort, suicide is the ultimate taking back of control, they may be unable to change the circumstances of their life but they can end it.
This is the case for me. I have MS and I'm in a good place with no intention of killing myself. BUT if I start to experience rapid physical and cognitive decline and I still have the ability to notice then I will be going down the (assisted) suicide route. Things won't get better for me in that scenario, only worse - by then it's permanent, worsening, nerve damage...
Bruce….. Right now you sound very BPD.
You seem to be very “black and white” in your thinking.
Are you having a tough time at the moment?
On a thread entitled 'Let's talk about suicide' you're dismissing someone's comments by suggesting they have a serious mental illness.
That's a proper low blow and one of the nastiest things I've seen on STW for a long time. It may be that you didn't intend it that way but at face value it negates the studied niceness of your other comments and goes a long way to undermine the notion that you're well intentioned about this.
Not me, but I think my brother is suicidal. Not too sure how to try and help him.
Background is, he is going through a divorce and he is trying to homeschool two kids by himself, one of them is ASD and has Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome. Is finding things super tough.
However, he has pushed ALL friends away and family. He is being really nasty towards his soon to be ex-wife and us his family, saying lots of hurtful things.
It appears from the odd facebook comment that pops up, that he is just engaging with a very narrow online community, some with whacky ideas.
How can you help someone who pushes everyone away? and is causing lots of pain and distress with wider friends and family? (sorry to hijack thread)
Mrwhyte, your brother sounds in a really dark place. What's the situation with the kids, do you feel that he is putting them at risk?
I don't know where you live but look up early help services within your local authority. Anyone can refer someone to them and they can offer all sorts of support from family support workers to sorting out respite or mental health support/counselling. Chances are your brother will refuse any support, which is his right, but it can be transformative and is also much less intrusive than social workers.
If you think his behaviour is putting his kids at risk though, you might have to go straight to social services.
As for helping him, if he doesn't want help, that's up to him, but it's important that he knows people are there that want to help, so keep letting him know you care. That's about as much as you can do.
Bruce….. Right now you sound very BPD.
You seem to be very “black and white” in your thinking.
Are you having a tough time at the moment?
Yeah, must have missed this reading through.
In terms of dealing with someone who you think might be struggling with their mental health, this is about as bad a response as you can possibly give.
You've tried to diagnose someone with an enormously complex condition that can take professionals years to properly diagnose based on a couple of forum posts. Horrendous.
Also, if you are truly concerned about someone's memtal health, try asking them how they're thinking instead of telling them, because, again, you have absolutely no idea what they're thinking and are only going to wind them up saying things like that. De-escalation of heightened emotions is important in helping people.
I'm sure it wasn't your intention but it looks a little like you've attempted to undermine someone who disagrees with you by insinuating they have a mental illness.