[Closed] Leaving a 10 month old with in-laws for a week

Oneside - What do they think, have you asked them? And how many overnighters will she have done by then?

Otherside - grow-up and miss a year.

I think it depends upon how comfortable your baby is with your in-laws. If she sees them several times a week and is very comfortable with them then go for it. If they live 100s miles away and you only see them once in a blue moon then probably not a good idea.

If it were me I would see how she copes with being left for a weekend before deciding. You also run the risk of missing first steps, words etc.

No doubt she'll be fine and you'll enjoy the holiday.

We did consider something similar but I'll be honest - I was too soppy and didn't want to miss a week with my son. Everyone's different.

Seems very selfish to me.

I can't stand to be away from my 6 month old for longer than one night.

I reckon it is a bit too soon to know whether at 10 months she will be up to being away from you for a week, given that she is only 4 months old now.

I wouldn't do it for the same reason as above - I miss my girls (15 months) during the day at work, never mind a whole week away from them.

Have you considered taking her and compromising what you do when you get there (ie, share the childcare and take turns to ski with the group)

I couldn't do it.

I wouldn't even leave our two year old for a two days let alone a week. I miss him like mad even if I stay away for a night!

Can you bring her and get a nanny to look after her on holiday? Worked well with my sister when she was about a year old.

I was still breastfeeding at 10 months. Didn't get a holiday until my daughter was 7. (wasn't bf for 7 years mind!)

Do it!!!

Welcome to parent hood once the kids are here there are some sacrifices that must be made.

Go she'll love the week with her Grandparents, they'll love having time with her and you love the weeks break but will miss her.

Been on a few holidays without the kids and loads of weekends away, it's hard but the break is great.

I'd do it given half the chance, I don't see the problem there with people you know and trust. Time on your own I think is important and for the child. It's not like your going away for long, a weeks no time at all

I went away for a night when Thump was 10-months old. He was so excited to see me the next day he threw up.

Read into that what you will.

KINGTUT - Member
Seems very selfish to me.

I can't stand to be away from my 6 month old for longer than one night.

Trust me TUT, you'll want a week off in a couple of years.
I'm off to spain on saturday with the kids(and mother) following behind on monday evening. No bickering siblings for a whole THREE days. I can't wait. 8)

our LO has just turned 10 months, couldn't bare not to see his smile in the morning.
I could do a night, but not a week.

This is one of those questions where almost no one is qualified to answer the question for you, even those of us that have kids.

So I will help you reach an answer by asking you a question in return (and this is not meant as emotional blackmail or a judgement, just a reality check for you):

You're away having a great time when you get a call from your inlaws/parents saying that something really terrible has happened and while your daughter is OK, she is in hospital and really needs you. But you're not there and then you find you can't get back until the end of the week.

If you're OK with how you might feel in that situation, and your inlaws are also OK with it (and in practical terms, that's a big ask for them, especially if they're older) then go and have fun.

OK that's probably a bit harsh and like I said not meant as emotional blackmail (I don't think you'd be a bad person if you went, just very human), but it's a test of how you really feel about leaving her.

Welcome to the next [i]x[/i] number of years of your life.

We've not had more than 1 night away from MFL Jr in 10 years, severe post natal depression limited things for 4 years, since then aged grandparents on my side mean we're often last in line when there are 10 other grandkids to look after, and in-laws have basically said no.

So if in-laws are capable of looking after your daughter, and you're happy to do it, then do it, just don't take the piss, the baby is entitled to holidays as much as you guys are

I agree with what geetee has said above, you'd not forgive yourselves if you were not there and there was a problem.

EDIT: Bit heavy that really.

Do it. Give yourselves a break, and your in-laws time to bond with their grandchild. S'what family's for, innit?

Four YEARS of PND? Ouch. That's nasty.

As everyone on here says it is not really a case of right and wrong, I cannot see a moral objection too it can you?

It is more about how you feel, if you are happy to do it then no problems, but seeing as you are asking then maybe you feel guilty? You have to ask do you feel guilt towards the kids? If yes then do not go. Or you are just worried about what other people think, in which case **** them go on holiday.

I have left our 21 month old twins with their grandparents twice overnight. The first time was at 15 months and it was too early, they missed us and we missed them. 2nd time, a few weeks ago was better. No way I'd do a week though.

Might have made a difference if they had been in childcare.

If you want my advice, leave it for a year or 2 until the grandparents have something constructive to offer the child.

Surf-Mat - Member
Four YEARS of PND? Ouch. That's nasty.

Oh yes, and she still isn't over it in many ways. We often get asked why we stopped at 1 child - erm, plonker, if you know us properly, isn't it clear enough??

Point is, sometimes you need a break

I reckon he should leave it a year or two and take kiddie with them.

Or go for a long weekend and leave kiddie with the grandparents?

it was no problem for us with each of our 3 - they all enjoyed it

i would leave it this year. but thats me.
we had a few weekends away at that age and the gandparents thought that was long enough.

It's appaling how badly diagnosed PND can be sometimes and indeed Pre-Natal Depression is even more poorly understood/diagnosed. The worst part of this is that PND is treatable and is recognised as being different to other forms of despression in that it has a definite start, definite end and a definite pathology, although that pathology is not well understood.

MFL if it was your wife you were referring to then as one man experiencing PND to another you have my heartfelt condolences.

I wish I had been in the position to do what you propose Graham. Had the opportunity arisen we would have taken it. Parents need a break and as said previously, grandparents love looking after grandchildren. They probably wouldn't cope long term but a week is a good length of time for all concerned. Just make sure your nipper is ok being with them.

You may miss her but then again, at least you'll get a decent kip!

I knew this would get some interesting responses.

Some points:

- The in-laws do live a fair distance away from us. They currently get to see her roughly every five weeks (i.e. by the time we've done a full cycle of my (seperated) parents, my sister, brother-in-law, friends)

- They are retired but active and loved looking after the brother-in-laws two boys (5 & 3) recently.

- They offered.

- my mum has offered to come with us and act as nanny instead. This would be a perfect option, but it's £900 per person so not sure the budget can stretch.

- yes we could take her with us on our own. It's one option we are considering.

- yes we would miss her terribly.

if they offered then crack on.

biggest question is could you and MrsG_S enjoy the holiday without the child being there.

tbh, I could probably have manage dit but my wife would have spent the whole time fretting (plus she was still breastfeeding both of ours when they were 10 months).

I do laugh at parents who wont leave their kids with grandparents for a night or few, dont you trust your own parents? anyhow I guess its a personal decision and you do what you are happy with. I have a son who is 6 when he was just over 1 we went to NYC for 10 days. He was born at 27 week so very prem, he also had bad colic etc so the 1st 10 monts were a nightmare. It was the best break ever and we needed it, the garndparents loved it and had quality time. we now have a 1.5 year old daughter, we leave them both with grandparents for the odd night or weekend so we can have quality time and relax with other friends without running about after them. TBH after having a prem kid you re-evaluate what is acceptable or scary. Leaving my kids for a night or 2 compared to what they have been through is nothing. I have friends who treat their kids like they are made of glass, wont leave them even for 1 hr.... kids are far more robust and happy with other people than some think. A break to recharge the bateries is a good thing!

1) doesn't the snowboarding place have a creche? You could drop the wee one off there, go snow boarding, then pick them up at night..
2) find a nice young lady to baby sit during the night and take your mobile

Not quite perfect, but at least you can sort of do what you want to do

You know this is why so many new parents end up on group skiing holidays; it's the perfect group holiday for new parents because with enough of you, you only need to miss one days skiing whilst doing your stint of child care.

p.s. as I am writing this I can hear my 13 month old son grizzling and braying in the background and am thinking, yep, no problem whatsoever with leaving him with my parents for 5 days!

If it's any help my son's had weekends (Friday afternoon or Saturday morning to Sunday evening) away with my sister-in-law and her bf since about the same age and he's been fine (though there was a lot of tears the first few times for an hour or so each time after we left). I have no doubt that he'd have been fine at that age for a week if we'd been able to cope with it 🙂

We left ours with the in-laws and went skiing when our daughter was around that age (might have been 13 months). You need a break, and a week isn't the longest time.

You worry for a bit, but not [i]that[/i] much. As for the "what about if kiddy has to go to hospital"; my in-laws managed to have the responsibility to deal with their own kids, so they'd know what to do, and anyway we were fully contactable at all times.

A week to yourselves to remember what you were like before kids came along is no bad thing. We had a ball, acted like we were teenagers again, and skied our backsides off. One of the best holidays I can remember.

I reckon having our little one with us made our recent holiday to Majorca about ten times more fun than usual. Yes there are some trying moments but the fun bits are simply better IMO.

So spank - why laugh? Just different ideas for different parents.

AT Spanker, I son't think it is a trust issue that Graham is asking about, more would others consider it to be an imposition on the grandparents. It certainly isn't a trust issue with my parents, more that my siblings tend to be quicker to book grandparental babysitting months ahead, by the time we sort our shit out we've lost out - but then my parents have ended up with a rota of 9 kidsin a month at times!

Mat, a bit different with skiing though; you either book them into a crech (and don't see them all day) or only one of you skis. Not ideal.

What we did when the kids were a bit older was go to a family-friendly chalet, with on-hand nannies, but the kids got pretty bored, 'cos it was -15 outside so they couldn't do a lot.

In hindsight I'd only have started taking them with us from the age of about 4, when they can actually start to ski.

I'd be miffed if I didn't have them now though; my kids (12 and 10) are excellent skiers and it's fun to be out all day with them.

Yeah trust isn't an issue. They did a fine job raising MrsGrahamS so they must have done something right. 😀

As for the dreaded "kiddy in hospital" scenario. I think if you spend your life worrying about "what if"s then you'd never go anywhere. It's only Italy, in the unlikely event that something did happen we could be back the same day.

Oh and she'll be starting nursery about a month after we get back, so getting used to being with other people may not be a bad thing.

nickf: yeah she'll be joining us on skis as soon as she can 🙂

B) - do it. Time away from kids / kids with grandparents/family/friends is great for everyone.

Spanker just likes laughing at others.

I'd say big difference for in-laws between looking after a 10 month old and looking after 3 & 5 year olds in terms of effort involved in feeding/care/attention.

I'd take the hit on the holiday - it's only a year you'll miss out on.

dont you trust your own parents?

Grandparents on my side have declined the kind offer we gave them to look after our kids overnight as they are both deaf and will sleep through crying babies no problem

But if I had the chance I'd take it - do a trial run over a weekend first though.

I do laugh at parents who wont leave their kids with grandparents for a night or few, dont you trust your own parents?

Nope, My Dads dead and my Mum is 70 with bad Arthritis.

As a Grandparent myself, I'd be all for having the nipper for a whole week. I'd have the bugger walking, talking, smoking, wiping her arse and riding a bike before you got back.

Most in-laws are going to be 60++ too. Quite different having a baby for a day (or two) compared to a week. I totally trust my parents and inlaws but there's stuff they just can't do - including running for them if they go near a road, etc.

10 months.. nah.

Year later.. maybe.

2 years later.. for sure 🙂

This is reckoning without Mrs b. who wouldn't leave any of them for a night.

We've had 1 night away together in 4 years, doesn't bother me all that much to be honest.

Quite different having a [b][u]baby[/u][/b] for a day (or two) compared to a week. I totally trust my parents and inlaws but there's stuff they just can't do - including [b][u]running for them if they go near a road[/u][/b], etc.

She'll be ten months. If she has mastered a few faltering steps, or even just standing up, then she'll be doing quite well! I don't think her outrunning the grandparents will be an issue.

Oh, did I mention her great-grandparent will also be there - though she'll be 95 by then, so may well get outpaced 😀

Oh yes - I forgot they can't run at 10 months (unless incredibly gifted)!!

Well they might not be able to catch the pram/buggy if it rolls down the road then...

At 10 months I was working down t'pit!

Tell your 10 month old to MTFU!

Get yourself a break

Well they might not be able to catch the pram/buggy if it rolls down the road then...

True, but I doubt I could either 😆

This is reckoning without Mrs b. who wouldn't leave any of them for a night.

😯

Thanks for the positive comments. Glad to know we're not complete monsters for considering it. 🙂

I'm at a keyboard now, so some proper replies:

b r: What do they think, have you asked them? And how many overnighters will she have done by then?

They suggested it. Not sure, so far she has only been away with us. Though mother-in-law did take her for a full day while we went to a mate's wedding.

Cletus: If it were me I would see how she copes with being left for a weekend before deciding.

Yeah we will probably do a trial run at some point, but the holiday needs to be booked fairly soon so we won't know the results.

You also run the risk of missing first steps, words etc.

I risk missing those every day when I go to work. We'll both risk missing them when she goes to nursery in April.

KINGTUT: Seems very selfish to me.

Her parent's happiness undoubtedly has a bearing on her on wellbeing also, no? And won't spending time with trusted guardians build her confidence and sociability?

I can't stand to be away from my 6 month old for longer than one night.

I'm about to go away for three days with work 🙁

mastiles_fanylion: Have you considered taking her and compromising what you do when you get there (ie, share the childcare and take turns to ski with the group)

Yup. That was the original plan. Either take my mum as nanny (expensive!), or just ski alternate days. In-laws suggested this option.

Divagirl: I was still breastfeeding at 10 months. Didn't get a holiday until my daughter was 7. (wasn't bf for 7 years mind!)

We plan to start weaning at six months. She's already really interested in food, so she should be well off boob by ten months.

Denno17: Welcome to parent hood once the kids are here there are some sacrifices that must be made.

Thanks, we know. We've made a fair few already. I'm sure there will be plenty more. 😀
Despite what you might think, we're really not against making them if required.

missingfrontallobe : Welcome to the next x number of years of your life.
We've not had more than 1 night away from MFL Jr in 10 years

Blimey! Do you think MFL Jr has benefited from that? 😯
What about school trips, cubs/brownie camps, etc?

toys19: ...seeing as you are asking then maybe you feel guilty? You have to ask do you feel guilt towards the kids? If yes then do not go

Obviously we'll feel guilty and anxious about leaving her. But no I don't feel any guilt in the sense that I think it would be doing her harm.

On the contrary I think it would do her good and would give her grandparents a great time with her before they get too old.

mastiles_fanylion: But is he doing it because he needs a break or because he wants to carry on having no responsibilities?

A break would be good, as work is pretty hard going and I've not seen some of these mates in nearly a year.

But I don't [i]think[/i] it's a case of wanting no responsibilities. We both love having her, we're loving being parents and we want to do the best for her.

wwaswas: biggest question is could you and MrsG_S enjoy the holiday without the child being there.

Yep that's a factor. We'd definitely miss her a lot.

Travis: doesn't the snowboarding place have a creche?

Not for babies and I'd probably be less comfortable with that than leaving her with people I know and trust.

geetee1972: You know this is why so many new parents end up on group skiing holidays; it's the perfect group holiday for new parents because with enough of you, you only need to miss one days skiing whilst doing your stint of child care.

Sadly those in the group that have had kids recently are not coming, mainly due to being skint. The rest are single or have teenage kids (who are coming and skiing with us).

As the person who has looked after my nephew from the age of 10 months on a regular basis, I would say wait a year.

We looked after our nephew after he had stopped breast feeding and he was used to us being around us all the time. Starting off with nights, then the odd weekend and once or twice long weekends. However if your parents only see their grand daughter evey few weeks, it may be tough going if she realises you have gone away and the major tantrums start.

The best solution ( as mentioned above) is to take her along, with friends/families with similar aged children.

I do believe it's good though for young children to stay with relatives for odd weekends and even longer, they end up more confident and if in times of a crisis ( or if another child comes along and the parents need a rest) they're used to staying away from home.

We plan to start weaning at six months. She's already really interested in food, so she should be well off boob by ten months.

You know babies should still be drinking milk as well as food at 10 months (boob or formula)?

Do it.

We just left our 10 month old son for the first time last weekend. He spent a couple of nights at my Mum's and a couple at my Sister's. They all had a great time. Mum and Sister live 100 miles way so don't get to see him often enough, this was a great opportunity for them to spend some quality time together without us around.

Obviously we both missed him terribly, but we had time together for the first time since he was born (4 lie in's!!!!) which did us the world of good, and he had a great time too. The look on his face when he saw us Monday was priceless.

You'll miss her more than she'll miss you.

Given the state my niece was in for a 4 day skiing weekend when my sis and brother in law buggered off to enjoy the snow, I'd have to say no. Our children coming up to 5 and 3 have never had a night without my wife or I and we don't intend on doing so either until one of them asks to stay at grandparents.

Exactly or formula.

Your decision Graham go for it I say too many scare stories, if it doesn't work out then you know for next time. It's only a week.

When I was about 1 my mum and dad wnet on holiday without me, my gran looked after me. She dropped me in the bath and I had to have a couple of stiches on my face. Apparently it was a big drama at the time, especially as gran didnt have a car etc.... On the other side of the coin I dont remember it at all so that kind of covers both sides of the argument.

I'm astounded by those that have kids that have never had a night away from them. Can't understand the reasoning.

HEck if the grandparents have offered then why now? 10 months isn't small. yes no doubt you'll miss the kid but hey they'll learn, plus why can't you and the Mrs have a deserved break. Taking the kid with you, into creche or Mother to babysit is just so very very different to going on holiday on your own.
I can't be bothered to read all the posts but I'd be off like a shot. Go for it.

I'm astounded by those that have kids that have never had a night away from them. Can't understand the reasoning

You think thats bad, I get angsty being away from my dog, god help us when the child arrives next month!

I have been reading this with intrest as we are planning on leaving ours with my mum for maybe 3-4 days at a similar age due to work stuff. I will test her catching reflexes first though!!

No I miss the dog too when I'm away. Christ dogs miss you if your gone for 30 seconds.

I'd go and have done in the past when ours were small. If the gramps are more than capable of handling a baby for a week and want to then hell yes I'd go like a shot.

If it needs to be planned and booked now, then I'd say "give it a miss". You've no way of knowing what she'll be like in 6 months.

Better to wait and see how it works out by then and grab a quick break if it all looks well.

Bear in mind that, if you do go, the little 'un will get her own back when you get home.. - you'll have spent 10 months setting routines etc, all of which will be blown right out of the water by a week with doting grandparents... 😉

druidh: yeah trouble is that half the point of going is to see friends and getting last minute deals for eight or more adults is pretty impossible, so it does need booked in advance.

For the record, we went to Fernie last year while MrsGrahamS was seven months preggers...

.. she didn't ski tho 😀

Do it and enjoy it graham.

FWIW, our 5month old girl goes everywhere with us at the moment, including the bike park (c.f. winter ski hill). Spent 3 days at Silver Star last week, 2 days at Whistler the week before and both of us got to ride. Some days we luckily had a non-riding friend who offered to babysit, other days my wife & I just rotated. Meet up for lunch in the village and swap the baby for the lift ticket! Got a great photo of Mrs Burts in cycling gear feeding BabyBurts with a stack of full-face helmets around her, just before another lap of Crank It Up.

We have been leaving our nipper with his grandparents since 6 months.. every other weekend or so.. just for one night.. the thought of any more than that... despite all our expectations to the contrary.. we feel a bit wierd and worried.. and the grandparents only live 30 miles up the way..

I would not do it myself personally for all sorts of reasons..

have some practice runs first if I was you..
we have however taken the boy camping on a couple of occasions and to a couple of music festivals..

take the little one with you

I have been on ski holidays with parents of younger kids, they brought a nanny. At that age, you will find creches that will take a baby of 10 months, but most groups I have been with have only left their kids of that age for a morning. I have been with other friends who have brought the grandparents.

I think they would be all be slightly better options and you will be able to find a suitable resort but you may need to do the legwork rather than just joining your friends' plans.

so she should be well off boob by ten months.

Shouldn't be. You should keep on giving breast milk as well as a full diet until one or even two - the WHO guidlines (not the aged rock band) are til two. JnrGrips gradually went off it at about 16m or so.

Personally I would NOT have left her alone for a whole week at 10mo. I don't think she'd have known wtf was happening and would have been extremely stressed and scared that Mum and Dad had disappeared. And I'm not being soppy - believe me, I can't wait til she can spend a weekend at my folks'!

Eh, no - not for that length of time. The bairn will be old enough by then to feel separation anxiety when their primary people aren't around and you've no idea yet quite how they'll be.

People do worse by their kids than that though so please yourself.

PS - One post said something about it being good for the baby. I don't think being exposed to anxiety-creating situations makes a baby feel more secure. It works the other way around - fewer anxiety-creating situations mean they develop a sense of security more quickly.

Jeeze there's some middle class angst on here!

'Ooh I can't bear to leave my darling little child for more than 10 seconds less someone thinks I'm a bad parent!'.

Please.

Eh, no - not for that length of time. The bairn will be old enough by then to feel separation anxiety when their primary people aren't around and you've no idea yet quite how they'll be.

Eh? What on Earth psychobabble crap is that?

Look at other cultures; babies left with other family members with no ill effects on the children whatsoever. In fact, getting kids used to other people at an early age helps develop their independence and relationship skills. The 'Nuclear family' is a very modern phenomenon, not helped by the increasingly divisive society in which we live. Nah, go back to the extended family idea, especially if you have the option.

'Seperation Anxiety'. FFS... 😆

It's not that babbly surely. Babies go through a clingy phase. I'm not convinced leaving them for a week during that time is a great idea.

You're clearly better read on the subject than me though, what with all those other cultures you were educating me about.

I agree it's good to leave them with other people and so on but maybe not at ten months for a week at a time, eh.

As the parent of a 4 month old, currently sitting in a park in ambleside with a baby who just spontaneously decided to get up at 12, 130, 230, 430 and finally got into proper I'm awake not going back to sleep at all mode at 545 (hence needing to go for a walk at 6 am, to get the mother some sleep), I'd be well tempted by a week away just us right now (obviously at her age, breast feeding means it isn't possible!) And I'm on a walking holiday, where we can do much of the stuff we went to do with the baby in the sling, also with some family support too.

A few things about family coming on holiday to help look after babies, as opposed to babies visiting them:
1) you still get the nights
2) you may find that family help is primarily good for when you have a happy smiley baby, often other peoples ' baby help' means bounce baby until they get grumpy, find you and deliver a grumpy baby.
3) unless you are lucky enough to have insomniac grandparents, don't expect much help at that very early point when darling little one decides it is morning ( in our case we have one very early riser which can be very helpful)
4) if they get bored of / for some reason find it hard to look after the baby, your chances of any baby free activities on holiday are buggered. Especially a worry at the age where they start learning who friendly people are, where they take quite a time to get used to an unfamiliar face (ours is just starting this and it's a pain - she has a tendency to grump in any new persons arms the moment she can't see mum/dad)
5) make sure they remember that babies have nappies and need checking/changing every so often, even if they've had kids of their own.
6)i don't know your baby, but ours has variously been described as 'alert', ' energetic', ' wiggly', ' active' etc - which is basically shorthand for mentalist insanely full of energy baby that hardly stops, for someone not used to her (who doesn't know how to minimize effort whilst entertaining her) she is pretty tiring to look after now, and I imagine by 10 months when she can crawl, it is going to be hard work, particularly for a couple of elderlys. Depends on your baby - I know friends kids who are a million times more placid, who are much less energy intensive to look after.

I don't really have a solution though - I don't think we'll seriously go off for a week sans baby until she is quite a lot older than 10 weeks.

Joe

Think its all down to how you and your misses feel about it, your the ones that know your child and how they will react.

Were leaving our two with my mum and dad for a week soon. They will be 3years and 13months. They only see my parents every couple of weeks but are very happy with them, have had them for several weekends previoulsly. My parents love it, and although the kids miss us it helps strengthen the bonds between my kids and my parents. The kids love my parents to bits!

Saying that, after a week my wife will be tearing her hair out missing her babies! She say's she will be fine but im not so sure.

Shouldn't be. You should keep on giving breast milk as well as a full diet until one or even two - the WHO guidlines (not the aged rock band) are til two. JnrGrips gradually went off it at about 16m or s

Yeah yeah. Good luck with raising your kid by all those guidelines out there.

About the who guidelines, aren't they going to be focussed on long breastfeeding due to it being an obvious good idea in countries with poor water supply, where any alternative drink is likely to cause nasty diseases, particularly in babies.

Guidelines are really shit though aren't they? Let's cause worry with parents who think they have to breastfeed (not helped by midwives pressuring mum from the off). Some kids take to it and prefer it, others don't - and it ain't anything to do with parenting skills - it's just an individual doing what individuals do - something individual.

More good points. On the basis of this thread we're now thinking again about how we can take her with us. 🙂

Regarding The Who: yep, we know the guidelines. MrsGrahamS is a medical registrar so has done background reading 🙂 lil MissGrahamS will be exclusively on boob juice till 6 months (unless she literally drains my wife dry - which is possible!). But breastfeeding will stop as teeth come in. We both reckon that is nature's little hint! We'll probably still use a bit of expressed milk after that, to go with baby rice/porridge etc, but neither of us have any huge worries about introducing some formula at that stage as well.