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I have been a lifelong labour voter but stopped after the antics of Murphy in the independence referendum and nothing since has enticed me back - indeed things have got worse.
Issues - too close to English labour so unable to develop scots policies
Tribal hatred of the SNP for "stealing" their seats leading to the awful SNP baaaaaaad on everything and the Bain principle which has including opposing policies in Holyrood that were london labour policies simply because the SNPO had proposed the policy and thus sitting on the back benches carping rather than constructive engagement
A succession of leaders who were idiots / uncharismatic / didn't sound like they believed what they were saying. We have got used to politicians who sound like they believe in what they are saying and who tell the truth - all parties bar labour.
solutions? a divorce from london - at least semi independence so they can set policies that make sense in Scotland
A sensible position on the constitution. maybe federal with a constitutional convention ( obviously incorporating westminster reform)
An end to the Bain principle of automatically opposing everything the SNP does. Instead of SNP baaaaaaaaad how about - " thats a good policy in as far as it goes but you need to add A B and C"
find some talent!
thoughts? labour are now really in the doldrums in Scotland polling half what they do in England
Independence from Labour in England would be top of my list
I’m pro union so not inclined to vote SNP
I’m an actual human so not inclined to vote Tory
Currently that leaves me with Lib Dem or Greens. Seems to me to be a space there for Labour if they sort themselves out
Lib dems are almost dead in Scotland.
I think that's a reasonably fair analysis from the OP - and the answer is there are no easy answers for Labour in Scotland. The reversal of their fortunes have been swift and significant.
My own feeling is that they need to wait it out for independence, and then watch the SNP rightly implode after that. After all, the SNP should be a single issue party.
An independent country offers Labour, the Tories (perhaps) and the Lib Dems a shot at redemption that they simply don't deserve while tied to the London machines.
I have sympathy for Frank Sinatra, but I have shift from a 2014 No to a 2021 Hell Yeah. The genie ain't going back in the bottle, so we might as well rip the bandaid off sooner rather than later. There is no repairing the festering sore of the Union IMHO these days. That saddens me in some ways, but also, better to accept it and move on quickly to start building something new and hopefully better.
Labour's challenge there is to offer a vision of what new and better can be - and it needs to be more than simply 'not Tory'. I think Brexit has changed things, but also the SNP have gained traction because the vision (such as it is) they are spelling out now is trying to move toward something, rather than simply being about moving away from London and all that entails.
Positive, credible visions to move towards are a good thing.
Start a thread Labour in England - what's the way back? cos I think that's the issue too. The hope of a UK wide Labour government is the only thing keeping some folk hanging on in Scotland and the increased probability of it would hit the SNP vote. Realistically I don't expect to see such a thing for the next couple of UKGEs.
Maybe Baron Robertson of Port Erroll and Baron Foulkes of Cumnock can come up with a plan.
Do you think Labour supporting some kind of federalised system for the UK nations would get support in Scotland? Or has that ship already sailed?
I think labour in England are on the way back and have never hit the depths that they have in Scotland. I think labour in Scotland is now down to its die hard core voters and no way back is in sight.
I am pragmatic on independence - as it stands now my judgement is that independence would improve quality of life in Scotland but I am not ideologically wedded to it. Some aspects of the snp I loathe ( too centralising and too close to the hunting shooting fishing criminals)
I would like to see a scottish labour that I could vote for again
They have a really basic problem in that anything that's good for Scotland is perceived as a threat to their Britishness.
It's really stifling. So they should change their position on independence.
Can't say I've studied it much, but looking at the timeline of their problems, does anyone think that Magic Grandpa going back to the back benches and Labour moving to the centre again will at least help them with the Unionists in Scotland?
I think a more conciliatory approach is needed on both sides. I'm not an advocate of separation, see Brexit, however I don't think than an England-centric so called UK government is the right way. Leave "United Kingdom" and "Great Britain" in the past. Go forward with a coalition of governments representing the four nations equally and start working together like adults rather than bickering like children. Just a thought.
Do you think Labour supporting some kind of federalised system for the UK nations would get support in Scotland? Or has that ship already sailed?
ywes. How much I do not know but if they could pursuade on "the best of both worlds" Of vcourse Brexit really has scuppered this and its hard to see what the federal solution could be given the relative size of the 4 countries but a decent federal solution would answer some questions.
PJay - not really. the issues are Scottish ones. the behaviour of scottish labour over the last decade+ has been a real turn off to the voters. Opposing everything the SNP want to do regardless of its merits and carping from the back benches along with the disastrous NO campaign.
tjagain
ywes. How much I do not know but if they could pursuade on “the best of both worlds” Of vcourse Brexit really has scuppered this and its hard to see what the federal solution could be given the relative size of the 4 countries but a decent federal solution would answer some questions.
I would hope that England be split into smaller regions. That could be beneficial for the areas of England currently forgotten about, such as anything outside London, and make it an easier sell to NI, Wales and Scotland.
Keir did raise discussion around federalism before Covid struck so I would think it's still a possibility he will run with.
Not interested, just get independence done so we can have honest and fair debates and elections where we get who we vote for.
along with the disastrous NO campaign.
Err NO won...
It may have been a pyrrhic one but they won
Not interested, just get independence done so we can have honest and fair debates and elections where we get who we vote for.
Electoral nirvana, or a fairy tale to everyone else
Perhaps the SNP and Labour need to look to how the CSU/CDU work in Germany. Bavaria is the one state that is always harping on about breaking away form the rest of the country so the parallels are quite strong.
EDIT: I am working on the (perhaps) naive assumption, that Labour and the SNP share many core values and, ap[art form the union/Independence thing could complement one another quite well.
From wiki
"The Christian Social Union in Bavaria (CSU) is a Christian-democratic and conservative political party in Germany. Having a regionalist identity, the CSU operates only in Bavaria while its larger counterpart, the Christian Democratic Union (CDU), operates in the other fifteen states of Germany. It differs from the CDU by being somewhat more conservative in social matters, following the Catholic social teaching. The CSU is considered the de facto successor of the Weimar-era Catholic Bavarian People's Party.
At the federal level, the CSU forms a common faction in the Bundestag with the CDU which is frequently referred to as the Union Faction (die Unionsfraktion) or simply CDU/CSU. The CSU has had 46 seats in the Bundestag since the 2017 federal election, making currently it the smallest of the seven parties represented. The CSU is a member of the European People's Party and the International Democrat Union.
The CSU currently has three ministers in the cabinet of Germany of the federal government in Berlin, including former party leader Horst Seehofer who is Federal Minister of the Interior while party leader Markus Söder serves as Minister-President of Bavaria, a position that CSU representatives have held from 1946 to 1954 and again since 1957."
big_n_daft
Electoral nirvana, or a fairy tale to everyone else
Like the electoral nirvana and fairy tale enjoyed by the Irish? or the Maltese? or the Canadians? or the USA? etc etc etc
Yes please.
My own feeling is that they need to wait it out for independence, and then watch the SNP rightly implode after that. After all, the SNP should be a single issue party.
Tbh I used to think like that, once the SNP achieved their goal, they were spent, but they've grown to become much more than just a separation movement.
An independent country offers Labour, the Tories (perhaps) and the Lib Dems a shot at redemption that they simply don’t deserve while tied to the London machines.
I hope that post-independence the political landscape will change immeasurably, and the left, right and centre ground will be subsequently taken up by newly founded parties, with no ties to these traditional dinosaurs and their previous baggage.
Do you think Labour supporting some kind of federalised system for the UK nations would get support in Scotland? Or has that ship already sailed?
Purely my own thoughts, Federalism isn't something I'd be particularly interested in.
Like the electoral nirvana and fairy tale enjoyed by the Irish? or the Maltese? or the Canadians? or the USA? etc etc etc
Yes please.
Honest and fair debates?
Malta essentially a front for organised crime
US!!!!!!
Scotland historically has had more representation in the UK parliament than most other parts of the country. Your argument is the same as arguing that London doesn't get who it votes for.
If the SNP is your gold standard for honest and fair then you have set a low bar
The current conservative government is fast tracking it's implosion, they are very unlikely to win again
to become much more than just a separation movement.
Is that code for kleptocracy?
Independence from Labour in England would be top of my list
Agree. SNP and Labour are fairly close in their intentions with one obvious exception!. The SNP is pretty much a Scottish led Labour party and is who I would vote for if I was in Scotland as they care more about Scotland than a party that has the whole of the UK to deal with.
The current conservative government is fast tracking it’s implosion, they are very unlikely to win again
Currently ahead in the polls I thought?
Currently ahead in the polls I thought?
But not out of sight, Starmer has to rebuild a party before he can shift the polls, libdems may suddenly refresh etc etc
The current government has to avoid a new "harrying of the North" through Covid lockdowns, if it waits to London is hit before helping then they will not recover, the shires are in revolt of the daft planning changes etc etc
along with the disastrous NO campaign.
Err NO won…
It may have been a pyrrhic one but they won
Disastrous for the labour party
Labour and the SNP keep on swapping places as to which is further left but basically there is only a fag papaer between them on most policy. Thats why the labour / tory non aggression pact so enraged me. labour in Scotland have forgotton who the enemy is.|
Murry Scotlands sole labour MP was the architect of this.
I was a lifelong labour voter and member. It will take me a long time to forgive them for better together and that bungle-c Murphy. So from that point of view the no campaign was a disaster for them,they have paid for it is subsequent Holyrood and Westminster elections.
Can’t say I’ve studied it much, but looking at the timeline of their problems, does anyone think that Magic Grandpa going back to the back benches and Labour moving to the centre again will at least help them with the Unionists in Scotland?
It will certainly help to some extent, because the "anti-tory" vote has choices as does the "anti-SNP" vote. BUT in a FPTP world the winners aren't necessarily as simple as that anyway. The irony is that both conservatives and labour would be winning seats in Scotland if they backed reform to a STV or other reform like that.
I think labour in England are on the way back...
Are they? or is the current cabinet just such a shambles.
An end to the Bain principle of automatically opposing everything the SNP does. Instead of SNP baaaaaaaaad
Thats a consequence of majority governments thought isn't it? When minority governments need consensus everyone has to play sensibly - when the policy is likely to get voted through anyway you get yah boo politics.
Poly - they have done it consistently since losing power. ( labour). other parties engaged constructively and nudged the direction even the tories did so well. labour acted destructively and paid the price.
SNP have needed others votes most of the time. labour simply refused to play and sulked
A Labour government at Westminster may help to raise their profile in Scotland. Not sure enough to unseat the entrenched current incumbents though. No point in hoping for a fresh start due to independence as there will be no referendum. They have a long hard slog ahead of them to be even seen as worthy and credible opposition.
big_n_daft
Scotland historically has had more representation in the UK parliament than most other parts of the country. Your argument is the same as arguing that London doesn’t get who it votes for.
That's an amazing statement.
Which country are you talking about? England, Wales, NI?
Because it really doesn't matter what Scotland votes for, we get what England wants. It's 70 years since we voted Tory for example, we voted 62% against Brexit.
. No point in hoping for a fresh start due to independence as there will be no referendum.
Assuming as seems likely pro independence parties have a large holyrood majority on a ticket of "independence now" as seems likely then IMO independence will take a couple of years ( plus transition). A section 30 order is not the only way.
Can’t say I’ve studied it much, but looking at the timeline of their problems, does anyone think that Magic Grandpa going back to the back benches and Labour moving to the centre again will at least help them with the Unionists in Scotland?
Labour has exactly the same number of Scottish seats now that it had in 2015, so it's difficult to see what difference Corbyn's departure would make. I suspect the answer is as some posters have outlined above: acceptance that a Labour government would require SNP support.
Labour will come back in Scotland, eventually as a party of government, only after more autonomy is gained by Scotland, not before. I fear that means full on independence, as politicians south of the border are too focussed on their own constituencies and careers to do any of the work towards a federal UK, or enshrining even the current levels of autonomy in law that can not be revoked by English MPs playing to their own bases and interests.
Scottish Labour's main problem is being the northern branch of UK Labour. Party before country is essential for them as UK Labour will struggle to win a UK GE without reclaiming a significant proportion of Scottish and Northern English seats back from the SNP and Tories. Scottish Labour have had a succession of halfwit leaders, lay with the Tories in 2014 and are currently irrelevant in Scotland. Scottish Unionists from the landed gentry to working class Sevco true blue loyal defenders of the faith, find common ground in the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party, despite that not being in the latter's interests. The SNP have struck a chord with many ordinary (previously Labour) voters and, despite some unwelcome centralisation and a few scandals, don't look like losing their base anytime soon. Indeed, Westminster's handling of Brexit and Covid are a gift to the SNP. Labour will struggle to become relevant again in Scotland for many years to come. Losing their Red Wall in Northern England further confounds their hopes for power. SKS may be their best shot at turning the wall back to red but but I doubt he'll turn many voters in Scotland.
iirc there is only one election since WW2 where taking out the scottish seats make a difference to who has the majority in westminster
There is no way back, look forwards. Scotland will gain independence, so the SNP and other parties north of the current border shall evolve into a new party system for Holyrood. Don't know what happens to Westminster, but I also reckon Northern Ireland and eventually Wales shall leave the union. I think demographically the Tories are in trouble, and what we are seeing now in the USA and UK is a right wing flare up to counteract these pressures - migration caused by climate change and unregulated markets, resistance by the rich status quo to the death of the carbon economy, resistance by the status quo to the appalling distribution of wealth across society.
The right will lose all these battles and there will be a shift to the left, but I hope the settled position of society becomes slightly left of centre, because extremities are bad.
Where labour ends up in Holyrood or Westminster depends how the party/parties evolve relative to these forces. They're better placed for long term survival than the tories. Unregulated capitalism, that the Tories can't let go of, shall die under the three pronged attack of anthropogenic climate change, the unsustainability of eternal economic growth, and proletariat intolerance of wealth distribution. The only thing that shall prolong the dominance of current economic models and the right is substantial depopulation (say from a pandemic) enabling growth to reoccur with reduced negative ramifications.
50m of Bacofoil only £4.99 at Asda btw.
Scottish Labour’s main problem is being the northern branch of UK Labour
And a string of charmless, clueless, soulless leaders....
Gray, Dugdale and the current whippet. Dreadful.
The poor leaderships seems to be endemic in Scots labour. I was no fan of Dewar but since him?
No mention of Baron McConnell of Glenscorrodale?
Another fine Socialist. Look, he's even wearing red.
I had flushed him from memory Colin!. See him fairly regularly on Arran, small man syndrome tastic.
Jack Mcconnel! a prime west coast apparatchik. they even tried the " anyone but Mcconnel" candidates first but they were even worse.
A shining example of all that is wrong in Scottish labour
iirc there is only one election since WW2 where taking out the scottish seats make a difference to who has the majority in westminster
Historically, yes when it was a two horse race and the SNP were nowhere for much of the post war era. They are now very strong, largely at Labour's expense. The SNP surpassed the 1987 'magnificent 50' Scottish Labour MPs of 1987 with 56 SNP MPs in 2015. Clearly the 1987 Labour total was a reaction to Maggie / Miners Strike etc and the 2015 SNP total was a reaction to being duped by 'Better Together' and the 'Vow', not to mention EVEL etc after the Indyref. The problem SKS has is exactly the same Kinnock had in 1987 and 1992; working class people voting for another left / centrist party. Splitting the centre left vote will always hand victory to the Tories. Doesn't matter why, but SDP / Liberal Alliance and SNP votes are largely made up of ex-labour voters. He'll struggle to get them back while Scottish Labour continue to attack the SNP rather than the Tories. Of course, if Scottish Labour do support another Indyref, what purpose does Scottish Labour then serve that isn't served by the SNP? Federalism / Devo Max? The broken 'Vow' suggests that won't happen. They should have cornered the working class unionist vote years ago but their leaders didn't have the calibre to persuade the electorate.
Look at the numbers. Take out all scots MPs and it makes no difference to who has a majority in Westminster and also the SNP will support a minority labour government but never a tory one
I used to think as you do as well but on closer analysis it does not hold up.
Edit - SNP taking all the scots seats means less for both labourr and tories - but more for the anti tory parties and the SNP are more anti tory than the labour party.
UK Labour are running scared of the "In Sturgeons pocket" line when they should be pointing out the relationship with the Tories and the likes of the DUP.