[Closed] Jesus Christ

But it's not just 'religion' that you're aiming it at on here TJ, it's people such as me. Why do I 'deserve'to have the 'piss taken from me'? Do I really have to 'keep quiet or face the ridicule'?. Who set you up in that position? I am more than able to see some of the problems caused in the world in the name of religion, but we're talking about the faith of individuals now, on this forum. Perhaps you should learn to separate your view of a persons religion from your view of them as individuals.

Coyote - Member

No you are not. You are saying that people with religious or spiritual views deserve treating with contempt.

Dunno where you get that from. Not what I have said at all.

What I repeatedly have said is that religion should be treated in exactly the same way as any other belief.

Why should religion be except from being debated and questioned

Barnsley mitch - no I have not. I do separate the person from their beliefs.

I am saying their religious vies are ridiculous to me. I think you are one of the good guys

I don't think religion needs "special" consideration as you put it. However I do believe that people should be free to pursue their own beliefs, as long as they do no harm, without fear of persecution. History is littered with unpleasant characters who believed that it was right to persecute people for their beliefs.

Why should religion be except from being debated and questioned

Ah, I see, you're changing your tune now......so now you want to "debate and question" religion ?

A little while ago you just wanted to take the piss.

Coyote - then we agree then - that is exactly my position.

I find ALL religious views contemptible, ridiculous and offensive. If you express them you will find the piss taken from you.

I think there is no place for religion in the 21st century. The whole practice of religion is absolutely abhorrent to me. So keep quiet about it or face the ridicule

Yup. That is attacking the individual.

Coyote - then we agree then - that is exactly my position.

WHAT!?!

You really are struggling......aren't you mate ?

Only to understand your logic.

I can see that.

I think I know where TJ is coming from although he's expressed himself in about the most argumentative way possible! 😉

You should be able to question religion, the ask about it and to discuss it from different points of view but a lot of people seem to think that religion should be unquestioned, that it's not "right" to question it, that it deserves some sort of special respect.

It doesn't.

If I was to question a scientific paper then it would be right and proper - that's how science works with scientists and academics questioning each others discoveries, demanding proofs and evidence, picking holes, pointing out errors - that's how science advances itself. Religion (or more exactly, some religious people) seem to find any questioning of their faith in the above manner highly offensive and seem to think that it demands some sort of "respect".

I respect your right to believe in UFO's, faires, God(s), 9/11 conspiracy theories and the benefits of 29" wheels but that doesn't mean I can't question it.

Edit: did I just agree with TJ?? 😯

Coyote - that is exactly my position. Keep it in private and you can do as you wish. Bring it in to the public domain then it is free to be treated in the same way as any other belief.

I do not attack the individual nor does that quote say that. I attack the religion not the person.

Ernie - I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate - why should religious be any differnt?

crazy-legs - Member

I think I know where TJ is coming from although he's expressed himself in about the most argumentative way possible!

Who me?

Ernie - I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate - why should religious be any differnt?

"I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my earlier answer"

Your intolerance and bigotry surprise me, they really do.

Put very simply, party politics usually involves one section of society being given a preference over another. The same can be said of all major organised religions. There is a lot of self interest there and debate and discussion is needed to try and maintain a balance. You only have to look at PMQs to see that childish piss taking passes as an accepted form of discussion in this fair country.

However I fail to see why, if an individual says that they believe in God, Allah, Buddha, Krishna and that they draw comfort from their beliefs, you feel that they should be subjected to ridicule and persecution.

Drawing comfort from religion is just as ludicrous as drawing comfort from a belief in faries.

It's all nonsense and not only that it's arrogance is breathtaking.

It's just not true and that's a simple and undeniable fact. I pity the religious.

joolsburger - you decribe religion as having 'breathtaking arrogance' in the same sentence as stating that 'drawing comfort from religion is ludicrous'. You dont really do irony, do you?

Semantics is all you've got though isn't it? It would be ironic if there was a god, and there isn't. Also my full statement was not as you quoted.

Yeah sorry joolsburger, I forgot to put the 'it's all nonsense' bit in. I simply find your assertions 'breathtakingly arrogant'. It's surely up to the individual concerned where they find comfort, and none of your concern, or am I just getting caught up in semantics? And regarding some of the posts on here claiming that religious people feel they should be protected or their views should be in some way 'off limits', what a crock of s**t. The point I've been trying to make all along is feel free to criticise or debate religion all you like - just try and refrain from the insults, etc. Clear enough for you?

It is up to people to believe what they want and it's up to me to feel free to ridicule them for it. I don't think I've insulted anyone (yet) just drawn a valid comparison between god and a fairy.

"Drawing comfort from religion is just as ludicrous as drawing comfort from a belief in faries.

It's all nonsense and not only that it's arrogance is breathtaking.

It's just not true and that's a simple and undeniable fact. I pity the religious."
Thought I'd put the whole lot in, in case you accused me of misquouting you again. Are you really not able to recognise that this could be seen as insulting?

So there is some proof then? You have facts and evidence at your disposal that prove the existence of a supreme being?

What's insulting is that the religious have gotten away with it for this long. It's about time their "beliefs" were sent the way of the dodo.

Could you direct me to where I stated I could give you 'proof' of the existence of God? I merely asked people to refrain from being patronising and insulting, something you are clearly struggling with.

Gotta love the live and let live attitude of the more evangelical atheists on this thread.

A lot of the arguments seem to talk about imposition of one belief system over another. Interesting to see which direction the hate is coming from.

It's about time their "beliefs" were sent the way of the dodo.

Well you get out there on your crusade to achieve that joolsburger.

........I'm sure you'll have much more success than Stalin or Mao Zedong ever had.

I mean, really, what sort of society tolerates that sort of nonsense ?

"What's insulting is that the religious have gotten away with it for this long."
Thought I'd stumbled into an episode of ScoobyDoo. Bet it was the caretaker that done it!

The derision is quite deliberate, I'm not struggling with it at all.

Please feel free, as religious people do, to act offended and make out in some way that it's the Atheists that are intolerant.

I have nothing against people but their unfounded beliefs are something completely different.

I'm not 'feeling free' to 'act offended as religious people do', just feeling offended as people do. Not too difficult for you?

Well done on bringing Stalin into it. What would you bible thumpers do without him...

OK well do that then. Or in line with Christian beliefs you could forgive me.

Well done on bringing Stalin into it

Oh I see, you feel uncomfortable when forced to see the logical conclusion of religious intolerance ?

Let's all pretend that we can be intolerant of religious beliefs ........without there being any nasty consequences.

Not my research, but nicked from some bloke who calls himself "Soar with the eagles":

Was Mary a virgin? Well of course she was. The old Aramaic word that was translated into a Greek word and then to Latin and finally to English as "virgin" meant a young married woman who hasn't had a child yet. Although some scholars believe that Jesus had brothers and sisters, they agree that he was, if not an only, an oldest. Mary had no child, she was a virgin in Aramaic terms, when she conceived Jesus.

Let's all pretend that we can be intolerant of [b][i]others'[/i][/b] beliefs ........without there being any nasty consequences to worry about, eh ?

fixed it for you

Although it could be argued by anyone with a solid grasp of Stalin's actions that in order to consolidate his powerbase any large political and social organisations opposed to him were for the chop and the church, in his mind, had to go. Same with Mao.

The didn't do what they did for the furthering of atheism but for a litany of other political reasons. I'm sure you know this and are just clutching at straws. Also it is fair to say that the machinery for wholesale murder and genocide are well developed these days so in a short space of time the godless (not Hitler as he was a bit of special case being a Catholic but also a bit of a pagan mystic)could kill lots more people more quickly.

Religion is a cracker for murder though as for 4 thousand years or so it's been a default setting, kill the heretic etc. Had the inquisition had access to gas and machine guns I'm sure they'd have had a killing spree equal to anything in the 20th century, the intent was certainly there.

The basic fact is still that science and religion are opposed, I'm sticking with science as it means that I can post stuff like this on the interweb using a laptop, the technology powering it is so advanced as to be almost beyond belief but still nice and provable with facts, evidence and stuff like that.

I never bother to argue with god botherers of any flavour, as their judgement is obviously so fundamentally flawed I can't really see the point. Religious belief justifies no more intellectual credence than the earth being flat or the moon being made of cheese.

You can call me an evangelical atheist if you like. I'm quite proud of being so.

You can tell me that my atheistic fervour is like a belief system if you like.Because it is.

For the reason I've stated above,if you are, it's not like your opinion is valid to me anyway.:)

Thank you trailmonkey.

And btw, I offered Stalin and Mao Zedong as examples of two people who set out to send religious beliefs "the way of the dodo".

They failed.

Presumably joolsburger believes that he will have better luck. Although he doesn't go into any detail.

No ernie, thank you. You've proved my point that peoples views both political and religious, impact upon other people and both should be considered, debated and valued with equal pertinence and respect.

8)

In terms of detail I am just doing my part by ensuring that my kids think religion is bunk and also ripping into anyone who wants to argue the toss on god.

If I can get even 3 to 5 people on board with not doing god I've contributed. I will have a secular burial and so on.

It's my keen desire to see religion become as unacceptable as racism, sexism and homophobia. I'm glad to see that in many circles a belief in god is already regarded as odd and deserving of ridicule.

Just keeping at it will get rid in the end.

Eventually I'm hoping thatgod becomes as irrelevant to most people as it is to me, it does however mean my and coming generations have to engage with the religious to turn them from their misguided ways.

Good luck joolsburger.

I'm don't have faith, but on the strength of this thread I would rather share a beer with religious ones...

ernie_lynch - Member

"Ernie - I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate - why should religious be any different? "

"I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my earlier answer"

I can't see an answer to this - sorry

It is strange - as an atheist I have to say my natural unthinking position is to ridicule and stammer with incredulity at those that express a faith which on reflection is poor form on my part. Very few "normal folk" with religious belief are of the ramming it down your throat persuasion so to ram your disdain down theirs is not really on. Silent sympathy (as I'm sure they are feeling for my lack of faith)maybe is the order of the day.

I think one of the reasons us atheists feel the urge to "lash out" is probably something to do with what we lived through as a child. Most of us of a certain age can remember being a child at school and being forced into daily prayer and to sing hymns as well as attend lessons learning about what those of us who are now atheists consider to be utter bollox - even in non religious schools. Looking back on it, it feels like I was subject to some sort of unwanted indoctrination - like a mild form of abuse. I wonder if the atheists of the next generation who have experienced a much more secular schooling will feel so strongly.

I find this thread hugely offensive, but appreciate everyone has their own opinions. that is one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking.

Jesus to me is - My friend and saviour

Convert - if they don't bother me with their beliefs I won't bother them - I don't go around looking for god botherers to bother.

Howeve3r when I am told this or that will happen because of their views or I have to do something or can't do something then its different.

Interesting thread is interesting.

There's a world of difference, I think, between "stamping out religion" and "stamping out the religious." Someone says they want to get rid of religion and someone else hears "I want to stamp out racism by killing all the brown people."

I don't believe in a god, for what [i]really [/i]should be fairly obvious reasons. I fear for the reasoning ability of any grown adult who still has an imaginary friend. But as other threads here have proved (such as the recent 'power balance' discussion), some people simply [i]really want to believe[/i].

Back in 'biblical' times, we believed that the world was flat and that all the pretty lights in the sky were put there for our benefit. In the absence of any other explanation, god was probably as compelling as any. It's easy to see how faith got started. People start telling stories, they get handed down, changed by chinese whispers, and then ultimately used by people with agendas in order to enforce power and control over an unruly populace. Add a few sneaky clauses like 'every sperm is sacred' because children of pious parents are basically free believers, and you've got yourselves a religion.

Time moves on though. We don't know everything, but we know quite a lot about the world and the universe around us. It's been alluded to here that "science" and "atheism" are belief systems; I'd argue strongly with that. It's the opposite of a belief system, there's no "belief" or "faith" involved or required. If you liked, and had the mental ability, you could check all these things for yourselves. Scientists do this continually, trying to prove each other wrong. It's what makes it science. This is in stark contrast to religion, which tries to argue that anaylsing their 'reasoning' is offensive and then gets angry with you when you start questioning it. Unfortunately for religion, one thing us humans are inordinately good at is asking questions; so then you get threads like this. Which is a good thing, I think. If nothing else, it's bloody entertaining. (-:

Religion has its positive points; some strains create a sense of community, some provide means to 'better yourself' and so on. I just fail to see why we can't carry on having community spirit and being nice to each other without all the bribery and blackmail (umpteen virgins / fires of hell) and without the need to have "faith" in some devine creator and a harebrained view of the universe.

that is one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking.

You see, I'm not sure why but as an atheist I find that sentiment irritatingly condescending. Get your god off my free thinking!

Or maybe I should just retort with "one of the most amazing things about science and nature is that people can be so chemically imbalanced as to have imaginary saviours but are still able to lead normal lives" 😉

You see, there I go again - must try harder & write considered pros like Cougar above.

yeti guy - Member

I find this thread hugely offensive, but appreciate everyone has their own opinions. that is one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking

Convert - the reason this is offensive is it is saying that its because of Jesus people can be free thinking.

I find that offensive. I am free thinking because I was brought up to believe in science and to need explanations to believe something

i dont find any of this thread offensive. 🙄

I am free thinking because I was brought up to believe in science

You're free-thinking because you were told by your parents to believe scientists? That's the same wooly thinking that makes Christians.

Believe scientists??? You posted this on the web using a PC, what's that then, magic?

Nothing wooly about science.

If Arthur C Clarke is to be believed, perhaps so.

More seriously, you miss my point.

TJ was arguing that he was "free thinking" because he'd been told by his parents what to believe. That's not free thinking, that's just lucky. Free thinking would be coming to that decision regardless of his upbringing.

Cougar - ever thought of setting up a sect? If so, I might just follow it! Before I sign up, what are your teachings on 29ers and the best tyres in the mud though ?

believe in science is not the same thing as believe scientists.

Believe in the scientific method and a rational explanation for everything

Convert > The Church of Cougarism is already well-established.

TJ > that was a blatent troll and you didn't rise to it; you're no fun.

(-:

To all the Christians posting on here and defending your beliefs, how old do you think the world is? Is it too embarrassing to admit if you believe everything the bible contains, you must believe it is under 7000 years old?

Is it completely out of order for a rational thinker to want to challenge you on this? Why should someone who doesn't hold your beliefs be expected to take your claims seriously? And yes it does bother me when I know someone holds the belief that the earth is that young, what an insult to my profession! Some of you are IT guys, if someone was wrong about an area of that would you not correct them?

So, whilst this debate simmers/boils over.

Who of the non believers don't partake in christmas or easter celebrations?

Do you select cards that don't say happy christmas, which essentially say's,'happy b'day you bearded berk(Jesus) instead, they say 'happy WTF am i'm celebrating this day for, is it so i don't feel left out?'

Like wise at Easter, Happy resurrection of a fictitious character cards seem all the rage.

Imagine in thousands of years times, if all the history books and knowledge was lost. Then someone read 'lord of the rings' and decided it really did happen. Would future man kind celebrate 22nd of September or the 25 March because of their significance? would this be madness to have everyone believe this to the point of it causing wars?

Perhaps i've missed the point but i've always struggled to find the missing link from 4001BC (Oddly too on the 25th March) from the Earths creation and soon after mans creation in the form of Adam, too..the the evolution back down ladder to early primates, then bcak up the evolutionary ladder to the the form we are now(though it appears the present form is quite rapidly heading back to it's previous incarnation, that of an ape).

This all seems complex and beyond the ability of both historians which rely on scriptures(much like asking a question on here and choosing to believe it)and Science, where research and practical studies can provide evidence in form.(which on here seems to be the more difficult way to find answers)

It's all quite bonkers really.

sharki - Member

So, whilst this debate simmers/boils over.

Who of the non believers don't partake in christmas or easter celebrations?

*puts up hand*

Both easter and christmas are christian festivals pasted over pagan ones anyway

Oooh, old chestnuts!

The thing is, Christmas for many (most?) people isn't a religious festival except by lip service any more. It's a national holiday, I don't need to believe in magic sky fairies in order to have a few days off work and buy gifts for people I like.

By that argument, we should be looking at renaming the days of the week, months of the year, etc. Thor's day? What if I don't believe in Norse thunder gods?

Perhaps i've missed the point but i've always struggled to find the missing link

Ah, but Creationists don't believe in Evolution.

Christmas & Easter - have to admit to using the terms as indicators within the year.

Christmas - prefer to think the christians nicked that one from the good guys. It's a great time of year for a family knees up so use it as that as it's a national holiday but don't send christmas cards. Easter passes me by apart from the fact that the national holiday based upon it moves around which I find rather inconvenient.

My own question - who abstains from going to weddings/christenings/funerals held in religious locations? Personally never go to christenings, but whilst always coming out of a church saying I'll never go back in one - come the next wedding or funeral I always find myself back in there mouth closed, head unbowed muttering "never again", again.

I tend not to send cards irrespective. I don't see the point in sending a card to everyone I've ever met, and spending hours agonising over "well, if I send one to x, I'll have to send one to y" politics.

I'll send a card to people I've not seen in ages perhaps, distant friends who I can't practically pop by and say hello. Where possible though, I'll try and get in touch with people through non-Hallmark methods, it's a bit more personal and I'd like to think means more.

Jesus Christ is an excellent expletive. Thats about it really.

who abstains from going to weddings/christenings/funerals held in religious locations?

Tricky subject, and a good question.

I can't abstain on religious grounds if I'm not religious; a church then becomes just a nice building. I can't be doing with all the pomp and scraping, but for a wedding for a friend, if it's what they want then I'll deal with it for their benefit.

I agreed years ago, against my better judgement, to be godfather for a friend's new kid. At the Christening I was front and centre and found the entire ceremony deeply unstettling and it made me [i]very [/i]uncomfortable.

Since then, the 'friend' only ever been in touch when he wants something, usually to give me grief. I got a text out of the blue whilst on holiday last year, after not hearing from him for about a year previously, telling me "my presense is required" and demanding that I attend her confirmation; I finally saw my arse over the whole thing and refused.

I guess that was in part down to his crappy attitude over a prolonged period of time, and in part because it's a ceremony that I'm fundementally opposed to. Guess I'm older and bolshier these days, but it's not a mistake I'll be making again.

geminafantasy - go back and re-read the thread. I dont recall 'defending my beliefs' anywhere, I've merely asked (unsuccesfully) not to be insulted. Do you honestly think the vast majority of Christians believe the Earth is less than 7000 years old? That God created it all in 7 days? I think you're getting mixed up with creationists. I personally believe in some of the tenets of Christianity (the wooly, be good to one another bits, mainly), but am more than capable of accepting science and rationalism as well. Like I said initially, threads like this are a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. Still, if it makes you feel better about yourself, crack on.

To be fair, Christianity would have a lot more credibility if it could manage to agree amongst itself what it believes. Rather than, y'know, blowing each other up for worshipping god in a slightly different way.

As an aside, the seven day thing - isn't that a fundemental pillar of Christian faith? I'm happy to be educated if I'm wrong, but I thought that was a pretty widely held belief amongst Christianity.

"And on the first day he created light and air and fish and jam and soup and potatoes and haircuts and arguements and small things and rabbits? and people with noses and jam... More jam perhaps, and soot and flies and tobogany and showers and toasters and grandmothers and, uh... Belgium."

There's the rub.

I personally believe in some of the tenets of Christianity (the wooly, be good to one another bits, mainly), but am more than capable of accepting science and rationalism as well.

How can you do this? I'm interested as the two are completely opposed.

If you want to be nice to people I fail to see what a magic friend brings to the party? Surely you either believe in a sapient creator or you don't? If you do then how can you also subscribe to the rational?

If your faith merely consists of believing that you should be nice to people, you can probably do without god. From what I understand of the bible god is more about the wrath and smiting thing.

He loves a good smite, god.

TandemJeremy - Member

[b]"Ernie - I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate - why should religious be any different? "[/b]

I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my earlier answer

[b]"I can't see an answer to this - sorry"[/b]

Let me help you then......

ernie_lynch - Member

Because whether people choose to go to church on a Sunday, or mosque/synagogue on a Saturday, or temple on whatever day, or whether they choose to pray in their homes, or believe in whatever they choose to believe, does not in any way whatsoever, bother or affect me.

The way they vote does.

There is a time to take the piss, and a time not to take the piss.

I don't take the piss over a whole multitude of issues. They include, other people's religion and culture.

It's ok to take the piss over politics, but not religion?

Why? How are they different? Why is religion special?

You guys sound like you're "farting in your own shit" - to coin a phrase.
🙂

As an aside, the seven day thing - isn't that a fundemental pillar of Christian faith?

Ta Ernie - so religion is something special that requires / has special status?

barnsleymitch - Member

geminafantasy - go back and re-read the thread. I dont recall 'defending my beliefs' anywhere, I've merely asked (unsuccesfully) not to be insulted.

I am not sure where you have been insulted. Thats you personally being insulted. I certainly haven't done although I was accused of it.

"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)"
My personal belief is that science and faith can co-exist. The bible was written a looong time ago, by various authors, and shouldnt be seen as some kind of instruction manual. It may have been written in part as a way of understanding the mechanics of the universe, parts of it would have had an element of folk lore, almost certainly parts of it were stolen from older, pre-established religions. Why do you presume that if a person professes a belief in faith that this precludes an unwillingness to also believe in scientific fact? I'm a multi-faceted person, I have a lot going in my life, and my faith / religion is only one part of all this.

He also said

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

Do you honestly think the vast majority of Christians believe the Earth is less than 7000 years old? That God created it all in 7 days? I think you're getting mixed up with creationists. [b]I personally believe in some of the tenets of Christianity (the wooly, be good to one another bits, mainly)[/b], but am more than capable of accepting science and rationalism as well.

And this is the bit that annoys me about religion (note, I've not said the religious). The woolly, be good to one another bits appearing in religious teachings are the being a good human being bits and I see them as not exclusively religious. When did religion hijack morality? What you are now professing to believe (and are calling your christian faith) are the basics of being a good human being regardless of belief in god. I would argue that those of us that can hold these values in esteem but do so without the big sticks of an all seeing god and hell and damnation (with Jesus somewhere in the picture holding your hand to help you choose the right path) are the lucky ones.

I really do find it interesting that those that profess to religious faith can happily pick and choose which bits to run with and which to ignore without feeling slightly silly. Help me understand.

Right, so it would be preferable to you if I came on here preaching hell fire and damnation? How many times do I have to say I dont have a problem with your views? How many examples can you find on this thread of Christians 'ramming their beliefs down your throat'? My point has always been that threads such as this are just an excuse to belittle those who dont exclusively share your views. And TJ, asserting that I should be ridiculed for holding ridiculous views, that I deserve to have 'the piss taken from me' and that I should 'keep quiet or face the ridicule' are all, in my opinion, insults.

No one has ever seen electricity, no one has ever seen an atom, but apparently these things exist. God might exist.

Just let people believe what they want.

barnsleymitch - they were not aimed at you. simple as. Not personal insults. read them in the context.

I did not say " I will ridicule barnsleymitch for his ridiculous views". I said if you espouse ridiculous views then expect ridicule

Stop looking for insults and read as it is written.

only the most fundamental view would take it to mean a week as we see it. Rather, given that these were stories

So if those were stories, by extension the rest of the book is as well?

Either it's the word of god or it isn't. If it's a book of parables, fine, but you can't then take the rest of it as fact. Jesus rising from the dead? Well, it's just a story, he probably had 'flu.

Unless you're cherry-picking for convenience, of course.