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I'm with Binners, fractionally more hopeless than the most hopeless Government in living memory ought to meet any definition of hopeless.
I think that the public have shown in pretty resounding style recently that they simply can’t be trusted with democracy.
I'm convinced the very opposite is true. It's the basis for pretty much every political belief or opinion I have. The problem isn't democracy, it's the stupid way in which it's implemented. We vote every now and again for someone to represent us, with no guarantee that they will, and very little power to remove them if they don't. Hardly a surprise is it that people then either become apathetic, turn to snake-oil populists, or seek to blame others like foreigners and/or the poor? The only real solution is to give people power. Yes sometimes they'll exercise it in stupid ways, like brexit, but over time they will engage, learn and do better in future.
And just on a point of order. Any leader who's ever come along and claimed that they know the answer to everything, be it Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Thatcher, Reagan, Blair etc has been proven wrong by history, and billions have suffered because of it. Top-down unnaccountable government only serves one purpose, and that's to protect the power and interests of those who have it.
They’re 5 points behind in the polls
You're doing it again. Most opinion polls over the last couple of months are within the margin of error. Cherry-picking to suit your argument does you no credit.
the two halves of which are openly slogging lumps out of each othe
Unlike Labour eh? Where the moderates arent just disagreeing about Brexit but are in an all out war to destroy Corbyn and co. Admittedly they have gone a bit quiet recently but as per the antisemitism row its clear its just a truce time and they are more interested in trying to drag Labour rightwards as opposed to opposing the tories.
Also you havent provided your great solution. Remember o guru that the Labour heartlands are mostly pro brexit. Why should Labour sacrifice themselves to save the tories? Bearing in mind if they did so then the tories would use it as an opportunity to push through even more right wing policies.
Another PMQT where he didn't want to mention the B word.
WTF?
Another PMQT where he didn’t want to mention the B word.
WTF?
Because he is happy to see that it is going ahead as that's what he wants, he also hopes to keep a low profile so as few people as possible notice that he is gagging for brexit and a hard one as he doesn't want to be hampered by EU restrictions if he gets in.
So the opinion polls have labour ‘within the margin of error’ behind this flailing, bickering, utterly incompetent, totally rudderless administration?
What ambition! What vision! What leadership!
Dont worry folks. Everything’s going to be fine. Jeremy, Dianne And John have got this covered now that their path to number ten is assured
Dear God!
So the opinion polls have labour ‘within the margin of error’ behind this flailing, bickering, utterly incompetent, totally rudderless administration?
You were telling us that they are five points behind. Make your mind up.
Its you that said that, not me. The poll I read in the Observer on Sunday had them 5 points behind.
Some achievement!
Maybe he could have people make up a chant about it to sing at festivals?
Ooooooooh..... margin of errrooooooor.......
Its you that said that, not me. The poll I read in the Observer on Sunday had them 5 points behind.
Yeah, sorry to introduce a fact into your silly diatribe. Still, it's all here to quote back, the next time you accuse Corbyn's supporters of being juvenile.
Can I ask you seriously what your opinion is about Corbyns ‘position’ on Brexit?
I agree with TurnerGuy. Corbyn wants Brexit just as much as Rees Mogg. The harder the better (oo-er missus!). The only difference between him and the Tory headbangers is that he’s made the concession that we should be in ‘a’ customs union. And he was totally bounced into that by Kier Starmer, completely against his instinct.
So why do his disciples keep faith in him, given this?
Genuine question, as i’m Intrigued by this totally contradictory position of (IMHO) unquestioningly supporting a position that is clearly not in their interests, and is essentially (again IMHO) a right wing coup?
i’d really Like to know your opinion on it. Feel free to carry on insulting me, but if you could talk me through your opinion onCorbyns Brexit ‘policies’ (such as they are) thet’d be great
Thanks in advance...
Can I ask you seriously what your opinion is about Corbyns ‘position’ on Brexit?
I'd be happy to debate Corbyn with someone whose mind is more open than yours
So why do his disciples keep faith in him, given this?
Because there is a lot else to like, basically.
I’d be happy to debate Corbyn with someone whose mind is more open than yours
By which you mean people with the same opinion as yourself and the beardy messiah
Hats of. Very Corbyn and Momentum. And you're not even being ironic. Perish the thought you might indulge in doing anything but hurl insults at those with a diffrent point of view, eh? Just ignore the wider debate and convincing other people of your arguament? Carry on preaching to the converted.
You stay in that cosy echo chamber of yours, wrapped in the comfort blanket of knowing you're right and occupying the moral high ground, becuse... erm... well.. .. just. because, right!.
No answers then? Quelle surprise....
By which you mean people with the same opinion as yourself and the beardy messiah
Your only interest seems to be slagging off Corbyn and his supporters, stridently regurgitating insults, yet having the brass neck to claim that you're the one being insulted and that Corbyn's supporters are juvenile.
As an exercise in proving my point, you could hardly have done a better job. If you ever become an adult, people may be more inclined to engage with you .Right now I have zero interest.
Still no answers then?
Do you want me repeat the question?
Corbyns Brexit ‘strategy’....?
The idea that Corbyn wants a hard brexit is utter nonsense - same as the rest of the lies put about by the press about him -
Lets see one single quote from him saying that.
Corbyns brexit strategy - you maen the labour parties position. Labour is a democratic institution and more so now and Corbyn does not set polciy Its . laid out in a series of speeches and papers.
Its maybe not one you agree with but its there ( I don't agree with it)
Basically its we cannot ignore the will of the people but we must limit the damage and avoid a hard border in NI and be no worse off as a result. So remain in a customs union. But then you would know this if yo actually listened to what is coming out of the labour party rather than what the press invent about it.
I am going to pull you up on another one. You keep on ranting about reselection. Name one MP that has been ousted. Not even Hoey has and you must agree she has no place in the labour party
They’ve not got mandatory reselection through yet, doesn’t mean they’re not going all out to get it!
Stands to reason though. More opportunity to concentrate on endless ‘procedure’ and naval-gazing, People’s front of Judes/Judeans People’s Front style factionalism and head in the sand ignoring of stuff like actually trying to win an election
Hey... 1981 called... they want their ‘politics back. It went really well last time around
Still no answers then?
You seem to be lacking in basic comprehension.
People’s front of Judes/Judeans People’s Front style factionalism
It seems to be Tourettes...
Still no answers then?
Jezza? Brexit? No...?
Still no answers then?
Not for you, as I've already said. Was it too difficult for you to understand?
What if somebody else asks?
Are you vetting all the recipients of your/Jezza’s wisdom?
People have posted a lot about Corbyn and Labour's brexit strategy but that doesn't really seem to be what you're in this thread for. If you actually want to know, go back and read the posts that you ignored.
What if somebody else asks?
Are you vetting all the recipients of your/Jezza’s wisdom?
I'll happily discuss politics with people who aren't acting like posturing children. And I'm pretty sure that Corbyn's views are widely reported.
People have posted a lot about Corbyn and Labour’s brexit strategy but that doesn’t really seem to be what you’re in this thread for.
Well, quite.
I’m genuinely intrigued to know why Momentum/Corbynistas are so glowing in their praise of a man who has a life long anti-EU agenda, wanted to trigger article 50 the day after the referendum, has totally failed to hold this shambolic governments insane attitude to Brexit to account, and has a personal Brexit agenda that doesn’t seem much different from Boris Johnson’s
Am I missing something?
Do feel free to enlighten me to my misconception of this huge inherent contradiction....
binners reminds me of a ukipper, ranting gammon faced at a low ceilinged country pub. Same rant every night.
Yet no-one will explain the contradiction
makes you think...
The idea that Corbyn wants a hard brexit is utter nonsense – same as the rest of the lies put about by the press about him
he's been very strongly anti-EU for most of his career and every now and again he slips out a comment that confirms he still has this view, or does something sneaky like saying 'a customs union' so that everyone things he wants to stay in 'the customs union' because they haven't noticed the semantic difference.
I am like binners, I can't believe that you guys are naive enough to think that he doesn't.
If he really wanted a soft, or no, brexit then why is he not being very vocal about it which would gain him much greater support than he has now ? unless he is even less competant than I think he is.
I'll leave these here to wind people up...
https://www.markpack.org.uk/153744/jeremy-corbyn-brexit/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/14/jeremy-corbyn-wants-hard-brexit-labour
I'm sure if you listened you here the explanation. You enjoy the sound of your own voice too much to listen to anyone else.
Yet no-one will explain the contradiction
Its only a contradiction if you are a member of the anti corbyn cult . If you dont its not difficult to see how most momentum and co members can agree with him on some things but disagree on others.
Outside of true cults there really isnt a requirement to agree with the leader on everything.
If May went to the polls now with a promise of a 2nd referendum in her manifesto, she'd get all the right-wing Brexit fanatics (because they'd have no choice but to vote for her) and all the remainers (because they'd want the referendum and will realise by then that Labour are pro-Brexit) and she would sweep to power on a massive majority, and be a victorious PM for the next five years. By the time of the _next_ election, JC would probably have retired, a disappointed man.
anti corbyn cult
What did you call me?
having dipped my toe into this thread - I think I'll back slowly towards the door
As unpopular as it might sound, we need a new Tony Blair.
The people of Britain are not generally enamoured of people that can be made to sound a bit 'extreme'. Party politics is not the same as politics.
Does anybody genuinely think that the Labour Party wouldn't either already be the party of Government, or would be in short order, if David Milliband had been voted to the post rather than his brother ? If not then one would suggest you think about it some more.
Britain is generally quite moderate, you seriously have to play to that.
Apart from the fact that such labour policies as taking trains an utilities back into public ownership are hugely popular. these are positions labour have moved to under Corbyn and would never have under a technocrat like Blair. YOu have to remember that Blair became less and less popular as he tightened control over the party, removed its internal democracy and moved the party to the right
I am certain David Milliband would have met the same fate as his brother as he simply does not have the instincts and positions to engage those on the left.
Under Corbyn labour has become reenergised and has a much bigger active membership.
Labours position on the EU is there if you want to see it. I briefly outlined it above. Its not the position I want to see but the position is there, its been well stated.
Britain is generally quite moderate, you seriously have to play to that.
The current Labour party policies are moderate, so what is the problem.
If he really wanted a soft, or no, brexit then why is he not being very vocal about it which would gain him much greater support than he has now ?
And you are calling other people naive. How do you think coming out with no brexit would go down with the Labour voters who voted brexit? How do you think a hard brexit would go down with Labour voters who voted remain?
Brexit is not party political. It is a game you cannot win (which is why the Tories are finding it so hard) so he is being vague and staying in the middle as his best chance.
Read the article TurnerGuy posted above. Corbyn wants exactly the same as Iain Duncan Smith on Brexit - which right now, politically, and for the forceeable future, is the only game in town.
They may come at it from different directions, but neither of their viewpoints could in any conceivable way be described as ‘moderate’
Hence me repeatedly asking the Corbyn fans how they’re squaring this circle? I’m genuinely interested, as It’s the elephant in the room and a massive inherent contradiction
Another Piece worth reading if you're still harbouring any illusions about where Jezza stands on Brexit
Keir Starmer clashed with Corbyn on Brexit 'to brink of resignation'
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/
A Labour government will end the uncertainty for our farmers and food producers by securing continued EU market access allowing British farmers and food producers to continue to sell their products on the Continent.
As our trading relationship with the EU changes it is vital that we retain unrestricted access for our goods and services.
Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union.
Sorry - but Labour position just doesn't work. They want freedom of movement of goods but not people. EU have already said no to this.
If not then one would suggest you think about it some more.
Thought about it and its still fantasy. Blairs trick only worked until the traditional voters realised he loathed them. He jumped in time to not be bitten by it. David Milliband wouldnt have done any better.
Also Blair was anything but moderate in several areas. Its just most of them he was aping the tories so it got portrayed as tory since if both parties agree on it then surely its moderate?
Labours policy under Corbyn (such as it is) is exactly the same position as Boris Johnson was advocating...
1. Have cake
2. Eat it
Its complete cloud cuckooland nonsense. How many times do the EU have to repeat that 'the 4 freedoms are indivisible'. But Corbyn knows this is unachievable and would inevitably lead ultimately to a Hard Brexit. But this is what he wants just as much Boris does. For very different reasons, but it doesn't really matter how you get somewhere, does it? Just the fact that you're there.
And the economic calamity of a hard Brexit will be just as catastrophic under a labour government as a Tory one, and would hit the working classes (who labour allegedly represent) the hardest
Ah, but red unicorns comrade.
Corbyn's position on brexit is largely irrelevant. He's not a dictator, he's the leader of a democratic party, and he's trying to make it more democratic. If the party decides to oppose brexit, support it, or something in between, it will be the decision of members, not some autocratic committee. If anyone wants to influence that, the options open to you are obvious.
I just don't understand this obsession with Corbyn and what he may or may not have said in the past or what his position is on this or that. He probably is anti-brexit, I don't think he's the type to change long held principles. The question we should be asking is not whether he's pro or anti brexit, but whether he will try to force through his own opinions against the wishes of the party he leads. Everything I hear from him, and everything he's done since he's become leader suggests that he won't. The battle on brexit within labour is not persuading Corbyn, it's to persuade the party.