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The thing about the labour rightwingers is that to accept Corbyn is right it means that they also have to accept they have wasted decades of their political careers going in the wrong direction.
There's an element of truth to this I think. I remember when Corbyn won the leadership Burnham looked destroyed. He looked like he'd realised that he'd sold out his principles in order to win, yet achieved exactly the opposite. Same goes for Cooper. Yet now instead of admitting they were wrong, they snipe from the sidelines rather than engaging. It's tragic because were they to do this, I'm convinced they'd gain a lot of respect from both the membership and the electorate and they'd be in a position to be leader again in the not too distant future.
I still see Yvette Cooper as far more likely to become PM. She is certainly better at holding Torys to account and have yet to see her 'snipe'.
cooper would be disastrous - another clone without and idea in her head or a principle to her name. almost as bad as Burnham who I can never forgive for playing the race card in the manchester mayor election
At least she didn't flounce to take up a pointless job with no power to massage her ego like Burnham did. And yes, she may not be one of the vocal anti-Corbyn types like Hodge, Eagle or Leslie, but she's been very much less than engaged with the new leadership. Her husband has done the sniping for her on the couches of political discussion programmes.
The thing about the labour rightwingers is that to accept Corbyn is right
Well I am not sure he is right. I do wish Labour could produce a better left wing candidate but the problem is they have been so badly hollowed out. We certainly do need a left wing Labour party in the same way we need a right wing Conservative party and ideally a few others. The main problem with the "moderates" is they liked having control of a party even if most of the votes werent for them. They also dont seem to realise quite how ideologically bound they are so lash out in anger. They wantt to have Labour dancing to their tune and dont seem to realise the trick Blair pulled only works so long before all the traditional voters say sod that and look for alternatives.
TJ - Have you watched her in action on the Homes Affairs Select Committee? Maybe I'm easily impressed by insightful questioning and a full understanding of her brief.
The thing about the labour rightwingers
That's the funniest thing Ive read on here for years! Binners is now right wing! LMFAO!
they also have to accept they have wasted decades of their political careers
Governing. Doubling health spending. That kind of thing.
John - and how long ago was that? Labour completely lost its way in the last few years in government and moved so far to the right
Rockape - not meaning binners but the so called"moderates" in the labour party
corbyns position is firmly in the centre of the european social democratic tradition.
Leku - she is clever no doubt ( I guess a huge advatage compred to how dim most MPS are) but she has never that I know of expressed a vision of what she wants the future to be and her performance in the labour leadership election was distinctly underwhelming. Talking in platitudes and soundbites
Still holding the line that anyone who isn’t a fully paid up member doesn’t get to have an opinion, I see?
No, just that your continued bleating sounds a bit hollow, given that you're not prepared to actually do anything about the leadership of the Labour party. I seem to remember that you shut up for a while after the last election.
As it happens, I don't think that Corbyn is a fantastic leader, but I do think he represents an incredibly important idea: democratic representation for social justice. It's no wonder that the PLP despises him so much, given his threat to their cosy existence.
Do anything about the leadership of the Labour Party? I think it’s pretty apparent to everyone that that ship sailed a few years ago.
The takeover of the party is complete and Jezza is there as long as he wants to be there.
i know people who’ve been card carrying members for decades who’ve just given it up as a lost cause and given up their membership. And we all know that the direction of travel of the party is to help them on their way, along with any MP’s who aren’t deemed loyal enough to the glorious leader.
its a cult
More worryingly, it’s a totally unelectable one.
Jezza and his cabal will carry on doing what they do. Preaching to the converted. Playing to the gallery with targeted social media etc to those in the Canary echo chamber, with little interest in engaging with people like me - a mere voter
You cant win elections doing that. As his woeful polling figures show in the face of a totally incompetent shambles of a givernment.
But then I don’t actually believe they want to be in power. Not even remotely. I’m sorry, but I see what I’ve always seen - sixth form level placard waving
But unfortunately the cost of that total lack of a serious opposition at this critical time looks even more like self-indulgence. Jezza looks no more interested in seriously engaging with the Brexit process now than he did when he went AWOL during the referendum campaign
Any opposition worthy of the name would’ve tearing this lot apart
Instead.... nothing. Silence. No vision, no strategy, no alternative being offered to this disaster we’re heading for
As this shitshow unravels the Labour Party will be held equally as complicit as Rees Mogg and his crew for their pathetic capitulation in the face of it, and their total abject failure to represent the interests of their natural voters, who are about to get hammered by the upcoming financial storm that the real rightwingers (not your imagined centrist bogeymen) are about to inflict on them, totally unopposed
i know people who’ve been card carrying members for decades who’ve just given it up as a lost cause and given up their membership.
Meanwhile, far more people have joined. You sound like one of those people who can't accept two overwhelming democratic results. It's pretty sad, really.
Still, the Labour party isn't of greatest benefit to Ramsbottom's comfortable middle classes, I suppose.
#stayclassy
I believe I have. Will you start taking your own advice?
Binners - tens of thousands of more members and what reselections? Ther have been none not even Hoey who any self respecting leftish party would have thrown out by now. Not Feild. None of the scots who actually were asking people to vote tory to get rid of the SNP and whos non agression pact with the tories resulted in 10 scots tory mps that kept May in power - yes thats right - the pact between the rightwingers in labour in scotland with the tories gave the tories 10 seats and kept May in power.
the sight of labour activists cheering tory wins was an utter sdsigrace - and these were the blairites not the corbynistas
Stay real. Your impressions are not the reality. I agree he is a bit lacklustre but the rest of your rant - no bearing in reality at all
be kind to binners he misses those halcyon days when the labour leader was all chummy with the dirty digger and the bush clan. yeah ha!
Yeah, who wants to win elections anyway, eh?
I’m pretty sure if we’d have had another 3 consecutive Tory terms instead, everything would have turned out pretty much the same. Or better, probably?
Actually....there would have been more protest marches, so it would actually have been even better!
You can’t beat a good protest march
You can’t beat a good protest march
Yeah, I was at one on Saturday. Much bigger crowd than the current labour membership - which seems to be lacking democratic representation from Corbyn*.
*Or Aaron, Jon-John and Seumas.
i know people who’ve been card carrying members for decades
I always find this claim somewhat suspicious. Considering decades would have been when Labour was left wing previously as opposed to its dalliance with "the third way". Its also easily countered by all the stories about people rejoining Labour after giving up on it whilst it spent its time chasing the banks and right wing media barons.
along with any MP’s who aren’t deemed loyal enough to the glorious leader.
Aside from this is, to put it mildly, bollocks. Even the raving lunatic "moderates" who would prefer to destroy Labour than actually have it be left wing havent been given the boot and several should have been.
with little interest in engaging with people like me – a mere voter
Odd that when the media was forced to give proper airtime he did fairly well then isnt it? Perhaps you should be questioning your choice of news sources.
but I see what I’ve always seen – sixth form level placard waving
Of course you do but then again you are clearly a member of the "anti-Corbyn" cult. I am really not sure which out of the pro or anti Corbyn cults are more extreme. Its a close call. The problem with the anti Corbyn cultists is you really do seem dedicated on creating a self fulfilling prophecy. At the least the tory loons outside of brexit generally give the leadership an easy time.
Any opposition worthy of the name would’ve tearing this lot apart
Oh really? Explain how oh political guru.
Bonus points if you can deal with the question of the overlap between the Labour heartlands and those who voted for Brexit.
Yeah, who wants to win elections anyway, eh?
Given your desire for Labour to revert to its electoral dead-end, I assume you don't.
Corbyn is more electable than the next Blairite off the rank be it Cooper, Burnham or whoever.
As soon as the Tories realised they could pretend to be centrists plus keep all the old Tory trump cards (racism, low tax etc) New Labour didnt have a chance. New Labour and the Tories are basically the same to the average voter except New Labour crashed the economy, invited in loads of immigrants and sold the gold blah blah blah.
Give me any arguement that a New Labour MP might use to attack a Tory and I will knock it for 6 out of the park.
Corbyn is more electable than the next Blairite off the rank be it Cooper, Burnham or whoever.
Hmmmmm...... no, I don't agree.
In order to be electable, you need to have charisma. Your points above are valid, but most people don't vote for the parties or the policy, they vote for the person. I'm no fan of Tony Blair's, but what he did have was charisma..... and every single party leader (on both sides) since that point has been stunningly devoid of it.
The turning point for me was when Labour voted for the wrong Miliband - one was extremely electable, the other seemed like he would struggle to organise a school fete. All Cameron had to do was be more electable than Ed - a low bar.
The only remotely electable Snr labour politician at the moment seems to be Sadiq Kahn - but unfortunately I don't think the UK is ready for a minority PM
I’m no fan of Tony Blair’s, but what he did have was charisma…..
Sure, but he was declining badly by 2005, and was lucky that the Tories were such a rabble back then.
@batfink MORE electable 🙂 Check out the Labour leadership contest debates to see who has the most charisma out of the afforementioned.
I’m no fan of Tony Blair’s, but what he did have was charisma…..
Sure, but he was declining badly by 2005, and was lucky that the Tories were such a rabble back then.
Hahaha...... more of a rabble than they are now?
Check out the Labour leadership contest debates to see who has the most charisma out of the afforementioned.
No thanks 🙂 But there must be SOMEBODY in the Labour party with more charisma than Jezza, just on the basis that he has none (outside of the sort of charisma that only works on momentum members). I suspect that anyone with genuine leadership potential is keeping their powder dry.
"In order to be electable, you need to have charisma."
He's been elected, twice. Does Theresa May have charisma? John Major? Politics doesn't have to be a cult of personality, arguably it's worst when it is.
(yes, I know people claim Corbyn's appeal is a cult of personality, but the same people say he doesn't have one, so let's not pay that too much heed)
He’s been elected, twice
By a sub-population not representative (I suspect) of the wider electorate
Does Theresa May have charisma?
It's relative. She won against Jezza. As bad as she is, she's still better (in most peoples minds) than JC.
John Major?
As above, but Kinnock
Politics doesn’t have to be a cult of personality, arguably it’s worst when it is.
I agree completely, however, the reality is that it is.
I suspect that anyone with genuine leadership potential is keeping their powder dry.
So rather than standing up and showing some leadership, they are skulking in the shadows in some Machiavellian scheme for personal power. Sounds very Tory to me. Personally I find a good leadership trait in a politician is someone who will do the right thing even if it costs them personally.
I agree completely, however, the reality is that it is.
Yes, politics is all about the likability of the leader. Th detail and specifics of policies are less important. You need a popular character at the front repeatedly spouting populist one liners.
Formula for Labour to win is as follows;
- Find most likeable member of Labour party and put them in as leader
- Keep saying you will increase minimum wage, increase NHS funding, increase police funding, tax rich companies
Just say it every week so it is the only thing the electorate associates with the party. The tories, media etc, will rightly question where the money is coming from but that doesn't matter as the majority of electorate are not reading that or watching or listening to the politics based tv and radio that discusses it.
Hahaha…… more of a rabble than they are now?
No, but Labour were in power and had plenty of seats to play with. Look up their vote share compared to 2017...
I suspect that anyone with genuine leadership potential is keeping their powder dry.
This. Since the changing of the electoral rules and the colonisation of the party by Momentum everyone in the Labour party knows that if there was a leadership election tomorrow he'd get an even bigger majority no matter who he stood against. So they're all sensibly keeping their heads down.
That rule change that Millibean brought in was the greatest gift the Tory party could have ever received. It was literally all their Christmases and Birthdays come at once. As the present state of things show it can also be a curse as well as a blessing.
For the country, in particular, and long suffering voters wathing in horror at our present political system
Any party in power does need an opposition that is at least functioning at some kind of level to keep it in check. The fact that the present labour party isn't even that has allowed them to dissolve into open civil war and descend into the total shambles that now passes for governance. Yet still they're ahead in the polls even as they tear into one another.
The truth is that Corbyn i unelectable for the same reason he's always been.... just too much baggage for most voters to swallow. Yes, the right wing press have made a meal of it, but trawling through his past is the gift that just keeps giving for them. He's an open goal.
And if Jezza scares the horses in marginal constituencies (the ones you have to win) then John Macdonnell, Len McCluskey and Dianne Abbot put the fear of God in them.
Our entire political system (in the present 2 party state) is totally broken and no longer fit for purpose, and Corbyn is a major part of the reason for that, and most certainly not the answer to it
In order to be electable, you need to have charisma
Even if we take this claim as true it is fairly clear he does have some. Your endless ranting about the Corbyn cult would tend to indicate that you actually agree as well. Cults are all about Charisma.
It may be that you feel his charisma isnt sufficiently broad but to claim he doesnt have any is nuts. Even if you dont see it yourself (I dont either for what its worth). May on the other hand really doesnt have any.
As Northwind says though this focus on "Charisma" is dangerous. That way you end up with glossy salespeople willing to say anything for the sale.
The turning point for me was when Labour voted for the wrong Miliband – one was extremely electable,
Ah yes the king across the water. The problem is though this hasnt been put to the test. Remember he was pretty much a clone of Blair. Blair of course knew that his approach only works so long. Thats why he resigned before going into an election he would have had a good chance of losing. The tories had got wise to the game and were able to play it just as well.
Our entire political system (in the present 2 party state) is totally broken and no longer fit for purpose, and Corbyn is a major part of the reason for that,
Yeah yeah. Corbyn, whilst not the right answer, is along the right lines. Actually having a left wing party as opposed to a party which whilst trying to triangulate the swing voters followed the tories ever rightward.
Your endless ranting about the Corbyn cult
Errrr..... this was my first post on this thread I think, are you confusing me with someone else?
Yes, the trouble is that politics is changing in this country at such a bewildering rate. If you look at the Tory party now they make the Cameron incarnation of a few years ago look like a bunch of Guardian-readers, they're so extreme.
And if imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then Momentum must feel flattered as the hard right UKIPers/Tommy Robinson supporters embark on doing to the Tory Party what Momentum has already done to Labour. To be honest, they've always been headed that way anyway.
But the upshot of this is that in the aftermath of Brexit we could be left with an electoral choice between a Jezza labour party who most people (rightly or wrongly) as 'Hard Left' (I don't personally), and an ultra-right wing Tory party led by one of the proper Brexit headbangers.
I don't think thats a choice many would feel particularly palatable. I already feel politically disenfranchised. I expect if this was the case, the vast majority of the countries voters would feel nobody really represented their views.
The irony being that it was a project to 'democratise' the two main parties that will have led us there. The law of unintended consequences, eh?
this was my first post on this thread I think, are you confusing me with someone else?
Sorry thought it was Binners. So are you still claiming he has no charisma? Given the excitable lot chanting his name at festivals and stuff I would say thats hard to support.
That rule change that Millibean brought in was the greatest gift the Tory party could have ever received. It was literally all their Christmases and Birthdays come at once.
I just don't get this, and I think this is the main area where we differ. The rule change Miliband brought in allowed a redistribution of power from the top of the party to the bottom. For all it's faults, it was an exercise in democratic empowerment. How can that be a bad thing? If it were up to me, all candidates for all parties should be elected in democratic primaries. You say our system is broken. I agree completely, but it's broken because those at the top who hold power, be they labour or tory, protect that power by disenfranchising everyone else.
If we want to fix politics, reforms like those that Miliband brought in need to be expanded across the board and enshrined in law. Do that and we might just have a chance of re-engaging the population to giving a shit about their own and the country's interests and actually taking some responsibility for it. If the population were more engaged in politics, they wouldn't have voted for brexit. The only way you get them engaged is to give them more power through elections, and as far as I can see, that's exactly what Corbyn is trying to do within the labour party.
Given the present totally hopeless state of the labour party, the UKIPisation of the Tories and with the UK having voted for Brexit, you honestly think thats whats needed is more 'voices of the people' style grass-roots democracy?
Seriously?
I'd advocate the complete opposite. Hand over the logistics of running the country over to Tesco or someone who knows about stuff like that, and make damn sure that the general public have as little opportunity as possible to ever get anywhere near the decision-making process ever again!
I already feel politically disenfranchised.
I'm not sure I understand why. I can understand you not liking Corbyn (I'm generally agnostic on Corbyn but I can see why he annoys some people). But how do his party reforms or the policies they party have adopted disenfranchise you? You've already said you don't think they're 'hard left'. Seems to me there's a massive dissonance between the image of Corbyn and his supporters that is presented by the media and the reality. There seems to be this obsession that they're all headbanging militant trots who like nothing more than to spout off in committee meetings about the bourgeoisie oppression of the workers.
I know quite a few momentum people who got involved post-Corbyn and nothing could be further from the truth. Sure there are some old-school nutters from the 70s/80s, but most of them are young millenial types pissed off with the system looking for more radical solutions, or ex-environmental and social justice activists who are more interested in actually doing stuff than sitting in stuffy committee rooms. They're also mostly very middle class, very well educated, and have long histories in community activism, direct action, and all sorts of other grassroots political action. If the party is being taking over by anyone, it's being taken over by these people, and that as far as I can see is a massively positive thing.
you honestly think thats whats needed is more ‘voices of the people’ style grass-roots democracy?
What is needed is for people to feel engaged in the system. Not to feel like they are just expected to tick a box every five years and then sod off. Or to feel that their voice is secondary to those paying the parties to advertise to them.
They need to be able to look at the major parties and choose one which represents them. Whether that is the tories, Labour or Lib dems,, SNP/Plaid Cymru if applicable, preferably the Greens and then a more locally oriented party doesnt really matter. What we cant have is the situation we ended up in with new labour and the orange book lib dems where they just chased the tories on a large number of policies ever rightwards. So all politicians were seen as identikit taking a brief time in the public sector before going on to their reward from the private sector. That is where the populists found the voice. Being able to promise representation for a large number of people who didnt feel represented any longer.
Hand over the logistics of running the country over to Tesco or someone who knows about stuff like that
You do realise that there is a subtle difference between running a shopping chain (which has had a fair few problems) and running a country. Its a tad harder to shut down an underperforming town than a store and also the method of screwing the suppliers doesnt really transfer across.
I know it was the new labour dream to hand everything over to the experts in the private sector but that really hasnt turned out to well has it?
I think that the public have shown in pretty resounding style recently that they simply can't be trusted with democracy. If Brexit has demonstrated anything it's that handing the average UK citizen a massively important decision to make is like handing a hand grenade to a monkey who's sat smoking spice.
Will they carefully examine it and weigh up the options? Of course not, they'll read something on the side of a bus, then pull the pin out and try and eat it.
I don't want more public involvement in politics. Its the very last thing we as a society need. I want far less. If you want to join a political party, as they are at present, you should probably be sectioned for your own benefit. Or shot. Or left in a room with a spice-addled monkey who's just been given a hand grenade. I'm easy with any of those
I'm sorry, but given the events of the last few years, we'd be better off revoking the parliament and the constitution, and establishing a military dictatorship with whichever one of the chuckle brothers is still alive at the helm, and lots of guns. Lots of guns. And hand grenades. And spice. And monkeys.it can't be any worse than this, can it?
Well the choices seem to be:
1. Effective dictatorship with monkeys as above (see Saudi Arabia, Egypt, China) as role models
2. Status quo - ignore the plebs but then get screwed by protest votes like Brexit
3. Listen to people and address their real problems
Which of these choices sounds best? Which one does Labour most correspond to? Tories?
Been "trawling" other blogs and what i have established is
1. Its mainly ideology- the hate for EU Socialism? Unelected EU ministers, Sovereignty, etc.
2. Its not about money or quality of life
3. These people despise the EU
So not matter what the misery they want it.
The bottom line is this country is completely divided there is little or no grey area.
If you sit on the remain side of the fence its going to be a miserable country to live in.
Given the present totally hopeless state of the labour party,
We can argue over how well they should be doing, but your comment is ridiculous hyperbole.
They're 5 points behind in the polls to a government that has split in two, the two halves of which are openly slogging lumps out of each other, all while the country drifts towards economic armageddon, without looking like its got a *ing clue what to do about it other than double down and make it even more catastrophic
Meanwhile, the party on the opposite benches are totally incapable of articulating a vision that can convince a majority of people that they can offer a better alternative to THAT!! To Boris *ing Johnson!!!!
I don't know what your definition of 'hopeless' is, but to me, thats going to take some ****ing beating!!!