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Read the Guardian Article about Kier Starmer Daz. I'm sorry, but loads of things like that prove Corbyn is just like any other politician. They're all for democracy until the point where they get into power and it then disagrees with them,. Then suddenly the previous enthusiasm wanes and they go very cold on the principle. He's no different. Except that with him, after all his rebellions, it has the added whiff of rank hypocrisy!
Remember the 3-line whipping of his MP's both to trigger Article 50 and then to scupper the motion for remaining in the Single Market? Oh, the irony. As with every other politician, ignore what they say and watch what they actually do. He's been supportive of Brexit all the way and has had to be railroaded into even the slightest of concessions to the hardest of Brexits
I just don’t understand this obsession with Corbyn and what he may or may not have said in the past or what his position is on this or that.
We have a two horse political system. And one is fit only for glue. So yes, I will take great interest in what the leader of the opposition does / say.
The battle on brexit within labour is not persuading Corbyn, it’s to persuade the party.
The membership is mostly remain. The problem is the voters.
The question we should be asking is not whether he’s pro or anti brexit, but whether he will try to force through his own opinions against the wishes of the party he leads.
He already has done. The split in the Brexit vote was so narrow that if an enthusiastic Remainer was leader of the Labour Party Remain would have won. It inconceivable that the leader of the Labour party couldn't swing 1pc of votes.
Since then he's used the whip to get his MPs to vote the way he wants on Brexit.
You can argue those decisions were right/wrong but you can't argue Corbyn as Leader of the Labour party hasn't made a massive difference, in spite of the views of his party.
I read the Starmer article at the time. I still don't see the issue. Of course Corbyn is going to argue his position and being leader, his arguments inevitably carry more weight, but it doesn't mean he can dictate policy. He has to bring the party with him. If he can't we won't be leader for very long. If the membership keep voting him in despite his brexit stance, then that's their decision and it should be respected.
And as for the 3-line whips, that was inevitable, and the result of political strategy, not Corbyn's personal position. If they hadn't whipped the party, the tories would have howled about how labour weren't respecting 'the will of the people' and trying to block brexit. We've already gone over how labour need leave voting constituencies to win an election so what choice did they have?
It's fair enough if people don't like Corbyn, or disagree with his policies. But really all this cult of personality stuff is fantasy. I don't know anyone who supports Corbyn, either in momentum or not who blindly worships him like is portrayed here and in the media. The only cult in the labour party is the passionate devotion of new members to the project of transforming the party and subsequently the country with a new type of progressive politics. Corbyn's job right now is to sort out the party, the job of sorting out the country will probably be passed to someone else.
Of course Corbyn is going to argue his position and being leader, his arguments inevitably carry more weight, but it doesn’t mean he can dictate policy.
In spite of examples where, rightly or wrongly, he has done precisely that.
And as for the 3-line whips, that was inevitable, and the result of political strategy, not Corbyn’s personal position.
Whether that's true or not it's still an example of Corbyn dictating policy. You can argue it was the right policy, but it was still a choice the leadership can choose to make. A committed remainer would have (perhaps wrongly) made a different choice and whipped the other way.
Corbyn’s job right now is to sort out the party, the job of sorting out the country will probably be passed to someone else.
It has already been passed to someone else.... The Tories. In perpetuity.
The electorate has already made its mind up about 'The Project' and passed judgement. Its decided that this absolute car crash of a government is a safer option.
Just look at this absolute shambles. Has this country ever been in such an unholy mess? Yet the labour party is still trailing in the polls, and seems pathologically incapable of taking advantage of the situation. And to be honest Corbyn and his cabal don't even look that interested in doing so. Lets talk about mandatory re-selections and rural bus services instead, eh?
If you're not 10 - 20 points clear of these idiots, who are a total rabble, fighting each other like rats in a sack, then you're beyond hopeless. You're not fit to be called an opposition. This is a gilt-edged opportunity. Its never going to be easier. If you can't do it now, you never ever will
Apart from the fact that such labour policies as taking trains an utilities back into public ownership are hugely popular
Well yes and no.
people want to think that they can take back control of the trains and utilities then the price for both will drop, everything will become efficient and they will benefit massively.
the reality is taking them back will cost significant cash to nationalise them then bribing them up to the standard that people imagine they should be will take tens of billions in investments and updates, millions in ongoing subsidies and decades of work.
now by the time any progress has been made the massive costs will have made the public angry and they will be shunted off to the private sector in order to recoup some cash.
would it benefit the population, maybe. Will it be done, probably not. For any decent progress to be made a politician needs to stand up and say you will have to pay considerably more tax for decades, while having poor service and reduced benefits to get the payout for your kids. No politicians have said this apart from the Brexi ones recently.
we are a nimby country that doesn’t want to pay for progress
If people actually voted for the things they say they'd vote for then the Tory party would never ever have won an election
The electorate has already made its mind up about ‘The Project’ and passed judgement. Its decided that this absolute car crash of a government is a safer option.
They did? When?
Was that a couple of years back when, at the time, the government was seen as a superbly capable set of hands. Something which only disappeared after the less than stellar results at the polls. Remember May only called the election since it was forecast to be a massacre.
Perhaps though if you "moderate" types hadnt been busy attacking Corbyn and trying to create a self fulfilling prophecy that he is unelectable it might have ended up differently.
You dont seem capable to learning the lesson though. I do wonder what makes someone dedicate themselves so heavily to attacking Corbyn and so aiding the hard right. Is it because you no longer have a political party dancing to your minority views?
One of the big problems for Labour is that Brexit is dominating - it's using up all the political oxygen. Labour are stuck in a position where they cannot please the remainers/ second referendum or hard core brexiters. Labour members are overwhelmingly remainers but lots of traditional labour voters are hardcore brexiters. I have a feeling that this is impacting the polls as Labour dither in the middle.
There is actually a really good debate on economic ideology and policy to be had between Lab and Tory which just isn't happening. On the back of the conference season all the non-tabloid press said that the Labour offering was interesting, coherent and new ( and dangerous from Telegraph etc which is a compliment) - but not more debate came from it because of bastard Brexit.
I do wonder what makes someone dedicate themselves so heavily to attacking Corbyn and so aiding the hard right.
Aiding the hard right is exactly what the labour party is doing at the moment under Corbyn, through his/its stance on Brexit... a 3 line whip for triggering article 50 and leaving the single market. They're going to get their longed-for Hard Brexit, and what exactly do you think they're going to do then....?
Deregulate everything, Decimate workers rights and environmental controls, privatise the NHS, etc, etc, etc.....
What a result for the labour party eh?
To them, Corbyn's just a useful idiot. I bet they can't believe their luck just how useful. He's going to be entirely complicit in, and culpable of, allowing the right wing of the Tory party to turn back social progress 70 years. The Labour leader who gifted them everything they've ever longer for.
Binners - what do you think Labour policy on Brexit should be?
Labour policy should be remaining in the customs union and the single market, and accepting whatever price needs to be paid for that, ie freedom of movement. Theres a majority in both the electorate and parliament for that. Brexit in Name Only, if you like
The status quo would be the best option, obviously, but I doubt they'd get away with that
Anything else is just economic self-harm and a gift to the free market ultras, who will then be empowered to take us god-only-knows-where. Somewhere just off the coast of America
But Corbyn doesn't want, and has never wanted that. He wants what the free market ultras want... a hard Brexit as he imagines (ridiculously) it'll free him from the capitalist shackles of Europe to create a socialist utopia. Its a pipe dream. What will happen in reality will be the polar opposite of that. We'll become a neo-liberal wet dream. A sweatshop, money-laundering tax-haven
Their policy should reflect what their membership wants. This is what Corbyn promised about all labour policy. Anyone know what the majority of labour membership would like to do?
Labour policy should be remaining in the customs union and the single market, and accepting whatever price needs to be paid for that, ie freedom of movement. Theres a majority in both the electorate and parliament for that.
Isnt that current Labour policy? Albeit not exactly well articulated. As I said before - this position is not all that popular. Labour members (and a big chunk of voters) are second referendum remainers but many (more?) traditional voters are hardcore leavers. Personally , I agree this is the best we could get out of the cluster **** that is Brexit
(Edited for clarity)
Isnt that current Labour policy?
Indeed, but don't tell binners.
No, that is not Labour policy… if you're listening to what the front bench say, and how they whip their MPs (rather than what the members say they want).
It has already been passed to someone else…. The Tories. In perpetuity.
Don't be daft. How many times have we heard 'x or y party is unelectable for a generation', and then things happen and the electorate changes their mind on who they want in power. These things come in cycles. What I'm interested in is not the baton being passed back and forth between the tories and labour who basically do the same stuff but from opposite ends of the spectrum, but the breaking of the cycle altogether.
The current political system largely serves a tiny few at the top whilst feeding scraps to the rest of us, and in the process is destroying the environment, mortgaging the future of our kids and causing untold death and suffering of millions along the way. I couldn't care less whether that system is governed by labour or the tories, what I want is for someone to change it. The only way that is going to happen is for new broad based poitical parties and movements who don't ask for power, but sieze it through the force of their arguments, their actions and ultimately their numbers. Corbyn for all his faults is on a path to changing the labour party into something like that. It may not work, but it's the best opportunity to radically change the way society works that has existed for decades, and that's why inspires so much passion in it's supporters.
Present labour policy is remaining in 'a' customs union, but not 'the' customs union, retaining tariff-free access to the single market, while being outside the single market and ending freedom of movement
Its a nonsense cloud-cuckooland pipe dream which the EU would laugh out of the place
Bravissimo - I would imagine that the labour membership would overwhelming be in favour of scrapping Brexit completely seeing as 86% of them support a second referendum, but I'm sure they'd back remaining in the customs union and the single market. Jezza doesn't seem in a hurry to ask them though.
When push comes to shove, behind the rhetoric I don't think Jezza is any more committed to this much-lauded internal democracy than Blair
Only when it suits
Isnt that current Labour policy?
If Labour Party policy was effectively remain why are they so quiet about the progression to hard leave?
almost everyone I speak too feels disenfranchised
I'm not sure Labour are being quiet about it particularly - I think not having a strong/clear remain (or leave) position means their policy is indistinct from the brexit miasma that is hanging across most of mainstream politics. There is such an overlapping range of opinion across both main parties.
And if Labour were to come out v strongly remain they would be hammered with the "undermining democracy" stick.
As I said before it's hugely disheartening as Brexit is basically killing all other political debate - when austerity is both driving public services into the ground and stifling economic growth. That is what the political debate should be about.
Bravissimo – I would imagine that the labour membership
Dont confuse labour membership with labour voters. It is the latter which has a lot more mixed opinions.
True - but I do believe that for the last few years the idea that traditional labour voters in northern and midlands constituencies who would switch their vote to the Tories over Brexit has been massively over-egged. I doubt many would actually do that, but obviously this is the impression given by the Brexit-supporting press
When push comes to shove, behind the rhetoric I don’t think Jezza is any more committed to this much-lauded internal democracy than Blair
Well if if that turns out to be the case then it will be incumbent on the membership to depose him. Given his supposed incompetence that shouldn’t be too difficult should it?
Labour dont need à Brexit policy at such.
All they need to do is attack the government on their actions but Corbyn doesn't even do that!
Binners - It has happened already - have a look at North East Derbyshire and Mansfield. Both Tory for first time in living memory (ever in the case of Mansfield). Voters went from Labour to UKIP in 2015 then UKIP to Tory in 2017.
Isnt that current Labour policy?
no, they explicitely say that free movement will end, but then say lots of guff about keeping all the same benefits as the single market and the customs union - which will be impossible without free movement.
They will have the same problem about the irish border, so unless they have a solution then they will be in the same situation.
I think we need something like Norway - it's a big gamble to assume that the rest of the UK can evolve ot pick up the financial hit that London and the SE will get, in tems of tax revenue.
Then, when the countries stabilised a bit, start trying to devolve London and the SE northwards and develop other strengths so we are not so reliant on financial services.
Then the question could be made again in the future with another referendum. By that time the financial imbalance between the north and south might have been addressed and the result might be fairer and not so influenced by people disgruntled by the lack of investment in their part of the country.
Norwegians tend to say, “if we could get what you have, we’d be in tomorrow.” 🙂 It’s a mad world.
Anyway, anyone know what the labour membership would like to do about Brexit? Did they have a vote on it at conference or anything?
Isn't the problem that there is not a good or even moderately ok outcome. The best we can hope for is not catastrophic
There are only two coherent s positions. Fully in ie ignore the referendum or hard brexit and negotiate trade deals as with any other state. The former politically impossible and the latter- a total economic and political disaster. Everything else is some degree of fudge with a Norway being the least bad. This means that any position is going to sound confused and be open to attack from both side
Let's not forget why we are in this shit storm. A weak Tory leader called a referendum on a fundamental constitutional issue purely to address his own problems with internal Tory party politics. This was held without a coherent debate or properly articulated endstate positions. Labour position was not strong enough at the time but it is a disaster created of Tory hubris.
I doubt many would actually do that, but obviously this is the impression given by the Brexit-supporting press
They dont need to become tories though do they? All they need to do is desert labour for ukip and co.
Although as olddog points out those parties could be a gateway drug.
Then, when the countries stabilised a bit, start trying to devolve London and the SE northwards and develop other strengths so we are not so reliant on financial services.
If ministers have not cared about moving north and developing other strengths when they had capacity and cash to do this why when the money runs out do you think they will do it? They are more likely to say that we should consolidate our existing strength as they are afraid of risk (that does not line the pockets of a private sponsor at public expense).
its sad but you can’t look to the governments to make your life better. As well meaning as many people might be there are more ****less and grabbing around. The best we can hope for is for them not to run the place into the ground.
A weak Tory leader called a referendum on a fundamental constitutional issue purely to address his own problems with internal Tory party politics.
I very much doubt he called you to explain his motives, so if we're going to guess why he did it I'm going to guess that the overwhelmingly most important reason was to win some votes off UKIP. He was on course to lose in 2015. When you're about to lose an election keeping your rebels under control can only ever be a secondary objective!
Of course, buying votes with a Referendum wasn't a tactic that he was alone in, Vince Cable called for a referendum in November 2007 and an in/out EU referendum on the next big change was in the Liberal manifesto in 2010.
Some more reading here:
https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/10/referendum-membership-lib
First poll post a budget widely perceived to have been a success for the Tories & bungled by labour supporting high earner tax cuts shows....
A 3 pt rise for labour.... Just goes to show that pepsology is bobbins!
( this was obviously b4 sports minister resigned over government caving in to gambling industry over FOBT. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tracey-crouch-resigns-sports-minister-delay-betting-fixed-odds-government-a8613256.html )
bungled by labour supporting high earner tax cuts shows….
A 3 pt rise for labour
Perhaps the latter means the former wasn't bungling after all?
Why does he keep giving them ammunition. 🙁
Perhaps he's playing a blinder. Let the Tories cancel Brexit while he's still seen as supporting it, get the support of the Left and disgruntled Brexiters, cruise into power and then never mention leaving again. Hope springs eh?
Perhaps he’s playing a blinder. Let the Tories cancel Brexit while he’s still seen as supporting it, get the support of the Left and disgruntled Brexiters, cruise into power and then never mention leaving again.
I agree he's played a blinder on Brexit from the very beginning. I was referring to his remembrance day choices. (And the fact that once he gets the inevitable bad press his strongest supporters all share the bad press on FB - linking to the bloody story! I seriously wonder if the Tabloids give him a share of the profit all those clicks are generating.)
If you mean his raincoat, then I can't see why that should get any flack whilst those wearing military outfits adorned with medals for doing hee haw except being born don't.
Don't think the falklands is going hove into view to save the Maybot so he can wear what ever the **** he likes
I can’t see why that should get any flack
It shouldn't, but it's entirely forseeable that it would. (As would anything other than the 'vanilla' plastic and paper poppy.)
Why give the gutter press any more clickbait than you absolutely have to....
<p>Meanwhile in the news outside of the comics for the permemantly outraged:</p><p> https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/99747/jeremy-corbyn-vows-end-scourge-ex-troops-sleeping</p>
Got a feeling Corbyn might have done a Michael Foot moment at the memoraisl today.
Why give the gutter press any more clickbait than you absolutely have to…
Because they will just make shit up anyway. Best to give them something obvious to look foolish about.
I am guessing, like last time, he stayed around a tad longer than most of the great and good who got the quick service in before sodding off for tea away from the plebs.
If you ask me he was taking the piss out of Donald Trump.
Because they will just make shit up anyway. Best to give them something obvious to look foolish about.
Eh? Why is that best?