Anyone who says Corbyn and Corbynism is unelectable can just point at Trump.Of course by 2020 Trump's simple solutions to complex problems might have been debunked but even so, Trump's victory gives Corbyn and Corbyn's plan some credibility that it was desperately lacking before.
Corbyn? Credible?
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Hmmm... Lets see if the Trump comparison stands up, shall we?
Its difficult to portray yourself as the outsider, ranged against the establishment, when you've never had a proper job, and you've sat on the backbenches picking up your parliamentary salary and pension contributions for 30 odd years.
And difficult to point to your business achievements, when you've never started so much as a small fire, never mind a business, and wyou spent all those decades on the backbenches achieving the sum total of * all!
unless I've missed the great big * off CORBYN tower next the gherkin
Fewer ((c) oldandpastit) people voted for Trump in this election than voted republican in the previous two elections. It really wasn't Trump. It was Clinton.
So it's still May's to lose rather than JCs to win. Which is the best he can hope for.
What's the de faco 'protest vote' for Lefties?
If May called a snap election now (can they do that since the Tories passed the fixed term government law?) I haven't a clue who I'd vote for.
What's the Man's polices, where does he stand on Article 50, where does he stand on a Trump Presidency?
I had hope for the Guy, a breath of fresh air, but his handling of the Labour leadership fight and his handling of Article 50 show him to me to be just another power-hungry politician. He can fight like a drunk Docker when it suits him, but when it comes to an important national issue he seems happy to sit back, let the chips fall where they may and hope the fall-out helps his cause.
I miss CMD, there, I said it.
I think one of the clear messages though for the labour party, and in particular the PLP, is that the conventional wisdom that only centrists can win is now not the case. There is a huge mass of people out there who are resentful, angry, and unrepresented. If the labour party and other left parties cannot harness that then the likes of UKIP/Trump/Le Pen etc will, and we all know where that leads.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/the-left-needs-a-new-populism-fast ]Interesting piece by Owen Jones today on exactly this subject.[/url]
The biggest mistake you can make is trying to depict it as a right/left/centre issue.
Politics has moved on. But when you've marooned yourself in a 1970's binary world or right/left....
The Brexit/Trump vote was a vote/expression of rage against the establishment. its independent of political leanings.
Corbyn has never had a job, and has been an MP for 30 odd years. He IS the establishment as much as Theresa May is. Just another cog in the machine everyone is railing against.
Hence looking as clueless as he does when trying, and failing, to comprehend whats going on, and his total failure to gain any traction outside the common room
"Corbyn has never had a job"
Ah, I see you've been studying at the Jambalaya School of Historical Revisionism. 😆
"He IS the establishment as much as Theresa May is"
😆 Good god. You really are funny sometimes.
"And difficult to point to your business achievements, when you've never started so much as a small fire, never mind a business, and wyou spent all those decades on the backbenches achieving the sum total of **** all!"
Remind me again of your business success?
Corbyn's the leader of the largest political party in Europe. Who are you again?
The Brexit/Trump vote was a vote/expression of rage against the establishment. its independent of political leanings.
It's all just semantics. I agree that the definitions of left vs right are now less clear and that instead it's about the 'establishment' vs 'the people', but the divisions can still be broadly described by left vs right, haves vs have nots, rich vs poor or whatever. The question I have though is if you think the establishment is the problem, why do you still cling to centrist labour party politicians like Andy Burnham as being the answer? Seems to me he and his ilk are the very personification of what you say people are against.
Remind me again of your business success?
Eh? Whats that got to do with owt?
I colour things in for a living. I'm not asking anyone to put me in charge of running the country.
I know my limits. These are usually 'keep the felt tips inside the black lines'
Jeremy's limits are sitting at the back of the room scowling and saying [b]NO![/b] to everything the grown ups suggest, and occasionally nipping out to get some excitable sixth formers all worked up with a bit of collective virtue signalling
Corbyn's the leader of the largest political party in Europe.
and Coldplay are the biggest band in the world.
dazh - MemberThe Brexit/Trump vote was a vote/expression of rage against the establishment. its independent of political leanings.
It's all just semantics. I agree that the definitions of left vs right are now less clear and that instead it's about the 'establishment' vs 'the people', but the divisions can still be broadly described by left vs right, haves vs have nots, rich vs poor or whatever. The question I have though is if you think the establishment is the problem, why do you still cling to centrist labour party politicians like Andy Burnham as being the answer? Seems to me he and his ilk are the very personification of what you say people are against.
Agreed, Trump is both Left and Right, rhetoric is very right, his policies mostly left - you could call him a populist, but is that such an insult for a public servant.
You would find a lot of people who share a lot of his opinions in any working man’s club 20 years ago, distrust of foreigners, distrust of the establishment, hatred of rich people avoiding tax. Anti-Globalisation, Pro Domestic Industry - jobs, jobs jobs rather than wealth, wealth, wealth.
The big question is whether it will work, can he really reverse a 30-40-year trend, he's got a good chance IF he wants to, as, he's as far as I can gather self-funded his appointment, he made no deals for funding, no favours to pay back – but the same can’t be said about the senate who need to ratify everything.
More importantly that all that though, on the face of it he seems a deeply unpleasant Man who will say and do anything to get what he wants, do we expect a Man who lies so easily, with such conviction to start being honest and fulfilling his promises? I doubt it, I can see a quick return to type, tax cuts and avoidance laws for people just like him, more globalisation as it’s more profitable, more suffering for the common man.
The big question is whether it will work, can he really reverse a 30-40-year trend
Assuming what he said during the campaign is what he actually believes or wants to do. I am not sure he really gives a shit about poor disaffected middle class Americans now he's had their vote.
"Corbyn has never had a job"Ah, I see you've been studying at the Jambalaya School of Historical Revisionism
If you can find me what 'job' he's had outside politics, that'd be great please Fred? As looking into his background, there aren't any references to any anywhere. Maybe someone has doctored his wiki page to remove all reference to his time spent as a welder in the Glasgow shipyards?
He's a career politician. Just as much as Blair or Cameron.
And we all know how high a regard they are held in. Like I said, the idea he can present himself as a Trump like outsider is laughable. I know there is a lower level of proof required in the common room, where it can get a bit emotional with all those adolescent hormones bouncing around, but still....
Remind me again of your business success?
I have a lot of respect for those that try, even if eventually they don't make it.
Far less for those who have never tried and don't know what they are trying to make very cheap points about.
If you can find me what 'job' he's had outside politics, that'd be great please Fred?
Is being an MP not a job then? By all accounts he's good at it.
Good at it?
Are you basing that on his totally anonymous 3 decades on the backbenches, his becoming labour leader by mistake during a post-modern prank that went wrong, or taking labour into the electoral wilderness with the lowest poll ratings in their history?
Are you basing that on his totally anonymous 3 decades on the backbenches
No, reports of how he represents his constituents. That's what back-benchers are meant to do, after all.
"If you can find me what 'job' he's had outside politics, that'd be great please Fred? "
I assume this is aimed at me, as you've quoted from my post.
Corbyn's been a journalist, union official and political activist and campaigner. Not entirely sure why it's essential for anyone to have had a wide range of jobs throughout their life, if they are dedicated to a particular vocation. You contradicted yourself when you said 'Corbyn has never had a job, and has been an MP for 30 odd years'. Not only are you wrong, but you're also dismissing the work he has actually done. Regardless of whether you value his work or not, it's simply incorrect to say he's 'never had a job'.
"Eh? Whats that got to do with owt?"
You're criticising someone who is not a businessman, for not running a business. That's a bit like criticising someone who is not a bus driver, for the bus being late.
And you're so dismissive of someone else's efforts, when that person has achieved far more than you have in their lifetime.
"I have a lot of respect for those that try, even if eventually they don't make it."
Depends on their motives. Trump 'tries' to make lots of money for himself, and gain power to sate his massive ego. I have zero respect for that.
"Far less for those who have never tried and don't know what they are trying to make very cheap points about."
I agree. Hence my defence of Corbyn, with Binners. JC has worked bloody hard his entire career, to fight for better lives for others. To dismiss this as 'never having had a proper job' is just utterly disrespectful.
"Is being an MP not a job then? By all accounts he's good at it."
According to the many constituents of his I've met, he is very good indeed. Must be why they keep voting for him...
To dismiss this as 'never having had a proper job' is just utterly disrespectful.
How about 'he utterly failed in achieving anything in his job'? 🙂
Corbyn's been a journalist, union official and political activist and campaigner.
He wrote a weekly column for the 12 readers of the Morning Star and waved some placards?
the point being made, and disputed here Fred is the idea of Corbs presenting himself as some Trump-esque outsider, stood with the common 'blue-collar' worker against the establishment?
What I'm sayingg is that, given his background as a lifelong Westminster insider, this is an absolutely laughable proposition
According to the many constituents of his I've met, he is very good indeed. Must be why they keep voting for him...
To be fair, you could paint a cows arse red in that constituency and it'd get elected
"the idea of Corbs presenting himself as some Trump-esque outsider, stood with the common 'blue-collar' worker against the establishment?"
I don't think he is. He makes no pretence about being middle class. He's not positioned himself as a 'workers' hero' at all. I think he would describe himself as a 'bleeding heart liberal', if pushed on the subject. I think you're thinking of Nigel Farage.
Do you have an issue with middle class people from privileged backgrounds, dedicating their work to helping others?
the point being made, and disputed here Fred is the idea of Corbs presenting himself as some Trump-esque outsider
But most other people seem to consider him the outsider candidate. He's been outside government all his life - how outside do you want him to be?
I have a lot of respect for those that try, even if eventually they don't make it.
Like Corbyn is trying to make the country a better place? Even if he's failing?
From what I can see, he's expended an awful lot of time and effort in keeping Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of the labour party, but as his casual, disinterested nonchalance during, and since the Referendum, its increasingly difficult to fathom to what end?
From what I can see, he's expended an awful lot of time and effort in keeping Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of the labour party
Because he believes in the democratic process, and he did have the most votes. If you'd won an election in a landslide, and then a few dozen people told you you were rubbish - what would you do?
It's not cut and dried. I'm sure you'd be first in line to ridicule him for campaining, winning, then giving up. And what would his successor do with most of his party membership not wanting him?
Life is simple when all you have to do is rant on the internet.
Because he believes in the democratic process, and he did have the most votes. If you'd won [s]an election[/s] a popularity contest in the sixth form by a landslide, and then [s]a few dozen people[/s] 80% of your parlimentary colleagues, and the entire the electorate told you you were rubbish - what would you do?
FTFY
You'd really turn round to all those party members and say 'sorry guys' and then give up?
Because he believes in the democratic process, and he did have the most votes. If you'd won an election a popularity contest in the sixth form by a landslide, and then a few dozen people 80% of your colleagues, and the entire the electorate told you you were rubbish - what would you do?
He put his name forward to be leader of the labour party. The labour party voted for him, twice. If other members of the labour party don't like it, they are free to leave.
@dazh tbh I thought Corbyn at least had something to say which made some sense, as for passionate delivery and energy he has never had that and he never will. It's just not him
Is being an MP not a job then? By all accounts he's good at it.
MP is a well paid and he has a £1.6m pension pot so I think that counts as a job. As for whether he is good at it I'd say by a [b]minority[/b] of accounts he is good at it.
Trump wants to cut taxes, abolish free trade deal with Mexico, build a wall, deport millions, subject all muslims to intensive vetting pre visa and invest heavily in infrastructure. So the cross-over with Corbyn is pretty limited I'd say.
"So the cross-over with Corbyn is pretty limited I'd say."
Trump's whole economic policy is pure Corbynomics.
They're both anti-trade deals, they're both lukewarm on NATO, they've bothr successfully pitched themselves as anti-establishment outsiders. They're part of the same wave of anti-liberal consensus backlash. Trump's pretty much proved what Corbyn supporters have said - poll tell us nothing - if Trump can win so can Corbyn.
the point being made, and disputed here Fred
Glad someone else is thinking that.....
if Trump can win so can Corbyn.
Well all I can say is please carry on with "the project" then
if Trump can win so can Corbyn.
he really can't
Trump was always within touching distance of Clinton, within a margin for error
Despite the best efforts of the Tory party to look like a bunch of clueless, incompetent buffoons, while handling the most important issue in this countries recent history, Corbyn trails them in all the [url= http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm ]polls by double digit percentages[/url]. And somewhat unbelievably his ratings are getting progressively worse!
Latest polls have Labour 16 points behind the Tory's. That would be electoral armageddon if there were an election tomorrow
By anyones standards that is one hell of an achievement!
They're both anti-trade deals, they're both lukewarm on NATO, they've bothr successfully pitched themselves as anti-establishment outsiders. They're part of the same wave of anti-liberal consensus backlash. Trump's pretty much proved what Corbyn supporters have said - poll tell us nothing
And a sixth point: alongside the brexit vote they both make me question my grip on reality. I mean **** it, I've been wrong about everything else, maybe the useless old poser can get elected?
Corbyn and Labour trail the Tories by miles and the Tory party haven't even been attacking him/them. The Tories are very happy with what Corbyn is doing and they are letting him get on with it. Just imagine the carnage of an election campaign.
Corbyn is nothing like Trump. Trump isn't anti-NATO (or pro nuckear diasrmament) he wants the other members to spend more money on defence and/or compensate the US directly. Corbyn offically campaigned Remain, you won't catch Trump doing the EU any favours nor Mexico.
The anti-establishment vote in UK has been for Brexit and NOT for more EU and the Marxism espoused by Corbyn and McDonald.
Its just been on Five Live that Jezza is going to make a speech this afternoon. He might possibly have remembered he's actually meant to be the leader of the opposition? Who knows?
Anyway.... the subject of the Speech? Comparing Donald Trump to the Tories.
Dear god! If ever you needed any evidence that the bloke is still mired in the left/right politics of the 70's/80's then this is it. FFS! He's ****ing clueless. This demonstrates, along with his muddled, ambivalent attitude to the Brexit vote, that he clearly has not the slightest comprehension about the forces at work, and the new dangerous populist politics that are so rapidly taking shape.
The MP's he's trying to get de-selected are the northern ones who are starting belatedly to get a handle on why their former voters have now moved, en masse, to UKIP. Why they're angry. And why they feel the labour party doesn't even understand, let alone care about their concerns. He wants to replace them with liberal, lefty, Islington-friendly versions of himself.
If he succeeds in doing this, then he may achieve what no Labour leader has managed, and lose absolutely rock-solid northern, Labour seats to the Tories or UKIP
Yes heard about this. What JC needs to understand is that "these people" have been voting UKIP in Labour constituencies, that was the warning to Labour and they ignored it. Deselecting moderate Labour MPs will move the party in the opposite direction to these voters wishes. He is right to identify the issue what he has failed to grasp is the solution they seek is not the one he has been supporting.
people will have learned from the mistake of choosing Clinton over Sanders and ending up with Trump
Corbyn's never been in a stronger position..
Sorry breadheads and fascists and the fearful and forlorn and other foolish types, but as I've said before.. your beloved mafia's grip on society is crumbling.. The oldboy networks and their obnoxious and condescending schemes are no longer enough to fool the children of the revolution
The MP's he's trying to get de-selected are the northern ones who are starting belatedly to get a handle on why their former voters have now moved, en masse, to UKIP.
Are they? From where I'm standing all they're offering is more of the same 'party of aspiration' rubbish with a bit of added anti-immigrant nonsense. That's if they can bring themselves to actually talk about policies, rather than harping on about trots and marxists who don't exist.
the solution they seek
what is the solution they seek?
Morning Yunki.
Saunders would have fared worse, Democrats knew that which is why Clinton was their overwhelming choice as deeply flawed as she was.
Corbyn is certainly in a strong position within Labour, his and Momentum's Stalinist purge is alive and well. Our point is the stronger he is the weaker Labour will be electorally by 2020. As and when the Tories turn their attention to Labour in terms of a general election it's going to be carnage for them.
added anti-immigrant nonsense
You are right in saying that's not enough to win them back. What Diane Abbot et all showed is ignoring the issue cost a lot of votes
naaaaaaaah
you wish that were true as it would make reality more palatable for you..
but it ain't
You are right in saying that's not enough to win them back
So how do you win back people who believe immigration is an issue and the answer is to stop it if you know that immigration is not an issue and it would be silly to stop it - do you just lie about it?
Kerly the issue is (was) uncontrolled immigration in UK (vs illegal immigration is the US) with a better argument and evidence as to why it's not bad for those people. Pointing to national GDP is not a good answer for someone with a poor job and undermined wages. All Labour have done is blame the Tories and skated over the fact that we had a Labour government from 1997-2010 who introduced the minimum wage and what did they do for these voters who have now turned to UKIP ?
Mefty posted this in the EU thread but it's just as relevant here. IMHO it's well worth the time to read
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/11/closing-liberal-mind
So how do you win back people who believe immigration is an issue and the answer is to stop it if you know that immigration is not an issue and it would be silly to stop it - do you just lie about it?
You don't need to lie. The thing with immigration is that most people who are against it are not racists. They don't take much convincing that it's not an issue if done in the right way. You do however have to address the other reasons for their discontent, which is an economic system which is rigged against them in favour of the rich and the corporate establishment. To date the labour party has not been doing this (it's starting to though), which leaves a vacuum which allows UKIP and the tories to blame immigrants.
Kerly the issue is (was) uncontrolled immigration in UK
I am talking about real issues not made up ones. So how do you convince them, and you, that immigration is not the issue for their problems? What can be said to you/them that they will believe and understand.
What if they/you don't want to believe it and would rather comfort yourselves that it is the immigrants fault whatever anyone says?
Actually the easiest way to show people that immigrants are not the devils portrayed by UKIP et al is to get them talking to each other. Do that an people quickly realise that they are no different to themselves.
Actually the easiest way to show people that immigrants are not the devils portrayed by UKIP et al is to get them talking to each other. Do that an people quickly realise that they are no different to themselves.
To us wealthy types immigrants are an opportunity to make more money and spend less of it. At the other end of the scale immigrants are competition.
Now try to convince people concerned about immigration that it's not a problem. Race is a complete red herring. A bit obvious when the immigrants they want to control are predominantly white and culturally christian.