I do wonder what makes someone dedicate themselves so heavily to attacking Corbyn and so aiding the hard right.
Aiding the hard right is exactly what the labour party is doing at the moment under Corbyn, through his/its stance on Brexit... a 3 line whip for triggering article 50 and leaving the single market. They're going to get their longed-for Hard Brexit, and what exactly do you think they're going to do then....?
Deregulate everything, Decimate workers rights and environmental controls, privatise the NHS, etc, etc, etc.....
What a result for the labour party eh?
To them, Corbyn's just a useful idiot. I bet they can't believe their luck just how useful. He's going to be entirely complicit in, and culpable of, allowing the right wing of the Tory party to turn back social progress 70 years. The Labour leader who gifted them everything they've ever longer for.
Binners - what do you think Labour policy on Brexit should be?
Labour policy should be remaining in the customs union and the single market, and accepting whatever price needs to be paid for that, ie freedom of movement. Theres a majority in both the electorate and parliament for that. Brexit in Name Only, if you like
The status quo would be the best option, obviously, but I doubt they'd get away with that
Anything else is just economic self-harm and a gift to the free market ultras, who will then be empowered to take us god-only-knows-where. Somewhere just off the coast of America
But Corbyn doesn't want, and has never wanted that. He wants what the free market ultras want... a hard Brexit as he imagines (ridiculously) it'll free him from the capitalist shackles of Europe to create a socialist utopia. Its a pipe dream. What will happen in reality will be the polar opposite of that. We'll become a neo-liberal wet dream. A sweatshop, money-laundering tax-haven
Their policy should reflect what their membership wants. This is what Corbyn promised about all labour policy. Anyone know what the majority of labour membership would like to do?
Labour policy should be remaining in the customs union and the single market, and accepting whatever price needs to be paid for that, ie freedom of movement. Theres a majority in both the electorate and parliament for that.
Isnt that current Labour policy? Albeit not exactly well articulated. As I said before - this position is not all that popular. Labour members (and a big chunk of voters) are second referendum remainers but many (more?) traditional voters are hardcore leavers. Personally , I agree this is the best we could get out of the cluster **** that is Brexit
(Edited for clarity)
Isnt that current Labour policy?
Indeed, but don't tell binners.
No, that is not Labour policy… if you're listening to what the front bench say, and how they whip their MPs (rather than what the members say they want).
It has already been passed to someone else…. The Tories. In perpetuity.
Don't be daft. How many times have we heard 'x or y party is unelectable for a generation', and then things happen and the electorate changes their mind on who they want in power. These things come in cycles. What I'm interested in is not the baton being passed back and forth between the tories and labour who basically do the same stuff but from opposite ends of the spectrum, but the breaking of the cycle altogether.
The current political system largely serves a tiny few at the top whilst feeding scraps to the rest of us, and in the process is destroying the environment, mortgaging the future of our kids and causing untold death and suffering of millions along the way. I couldn't care less whether that system is governed by labour or the tories, what I want is for someone to change it. The only way that is going to happen is for new broad based poitical parties and movements who don't ask for power, but sieze it through the force of their arguments, their actions and ultimately their numbers. Corbyn for all his faults is on a path to changing the labour party into something like that. It may not work, but it's the best opportunity to radically change the way society works that has existed for decades, and that's why inspires so much passion in it's supporters.
Present labour policy is remaining in 'a' customs union, but not 'the' customs union, retaining tariff-free access to the single market, while being outside the single market and ending freedom of movement
Its a nonsense cloud-cuckooland pipe dream which the EU would laugh out of the place
Bravissimo - I would imagine that the labour membership would overwhelming be in favour of scrapping Brexit completely seeing as 86% of them support a second referendum, but I'm sure they'd back remaining in the customs union and the single market. Jezza doesn't seem in a hurry to ask them though.
When push comes to shove, behind the rhetoric I don't think Jezza is any more committed to this much-lauded internal democracy than Blair
Only when it suits
Isnt that current Labour policy?
If Labour Party policy was effectively remain why are they so quiet about the progression to hard leave?
almost everyone I speak too feels disenfranchised
I'm not sure Labour are being quiet about it particularly - I think not having a strong/clear remain (or leave) position means their policy is indistinct from the brexit miasma that is hanging across most of mainstream politics. There is such an overlapping range of opinion across both main parties.
And if Labour were to come out v strongly remain they would be hammered with the "undermining democracy" stick.
As I said before it's hugely disheartening as Brexit is basically killing all other political debate - when austerity is both driving public services into the ground and stifling economic growth. That is what the political debate should be about.
Bravissimo – I would imagine that the labour membership
Dont confuse labour membership with labour voters. It is the latter which has a lot more mixed opinions.
True - but I do believe that for the last few years the idea that traditional labour voters in northern and midlands constituencies who would switch their vote to the Tories over Brexit has been massively over-egged. I doubt many would actually do that, but obviously this is the impression given by the Brexit-supporting press
When push comes to shove, behind the rhetoric I don’t think Jezza is any more committed to this much-lauded internal democracy than Blair
Well if if that turns out to be the case then it will be incumbent on the membership to depose him. Given his supposed incompetence that shouldn’t be too difficult should it?
Labour dont need à Brexit policy at such.
All they need to do is attack the government on their actions but Corbyn doesn't even do that!
Binners - It has happened already - have a look at North East Derbyshire and Mansfield. Both Tory for first time in living memory (ever in the case of Mansfield). Voters went from Labour to UKIP in 2015 then UKIP to Tory in 2017.
Isnt that current Labour policy?
no, they explicitely say that free movement will end, but then say lots of guff about keeping all the same benefits as the single market and the customs union - which will be impossible without free movement.
They will have the same problem about the irish border, so unless they have a solution then they will be in the same situation.
I think we need something like Norway - it's a big gamble to assume that the rest of the UK can evolve ot pick up the financial hit that London and the SE will get, in tems of tax revenue.
Then, when the countries stabilised a bit, start trying to devolve London and the SE northwards and develop other strengths so we are not so reliant on financial services.
Then the question could be made again in the future with another referendum. By that time the financial imbalance between the north and south might have been addressed and the result might be fairer and not so influenced by people disgruntled by the lack of investment in their part of the country.
Norwegians tend to say, “if we could get what you have, we’d be in tomorrow.” 🙂 It’s a mad world.
Anyway, anyone know what the labour membership would like to do about Brexit? Did they have a vote on it at conference or anything?
Isn't the problem that there is not a good or even moderately ok outcome. The best we can hope for is not catastrophic
There are only two coherent s positions. Fully in ie ignore the referendum or hard brexit and negotiate trade deals as with any other state. The former politically impossible and the latter- a total economic and political disaster. Everything else is some degree of fudge with a Norway being the least bad. This means that any position is going to sound confused and be open to attack from both side
Let's not forget why we are in this shit storm. A weak Tory leader called a referendum on a fundamental constitutional issue purely to address his own problems with internal Tory party politics. This was held without a coherent debate or properly articulated endstate positions. Labour position was not strong enough at the time but it is a disaster created of Tory hubris.
I doubt many would actually do that, but obviously this is the impression given by the Brexit-supporting press
They dont need to become tories though do they? All they need to do is desert labour for ukip and co.
Although as olddog points out those parties could be a gateway drug.
Then, when the countries stabilised a bit, start trying to devolve London and the SE northwards and develop other strengths so we are not so reliant on financial services.
If ministers have not cared about moving north and developing other strengths when they had capacity and cash to do this why when the money runs out do you think they will do it? They are more likely to say that we should consolidate our existing strength as they are afraid of risk (that does not line the pockets of a private sponsor at public expense).
its sad but you can’t look to the governments to make your life better. As well meaning as many people might be there are more ****less and grabbing around. The best we can hope for is for them not to run the place into the ground.
A weak Tory leader called a referendum on a fundamental constitutional issue purely to address his own problems with internal Tory party politics.
I very much doubt he called you to explain his motives, so if we're going to guess why he did it I'm going to guess that the overwhelmingly most important reason was to win some votes off UKIP. He was on course to lose in 2015. When you're about to lose an election keeping your rebels under control can only ever be a secondary objective!
Of course, buying votes with a Referendum wasn't a tactic that he was alone in, Vince Cable called for a referendum in November 2007 and an in/out EU referendum on the next big change was in the Liberal manifesto in 2010.
Some more reading here:
https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/10/referendum-membership-lib
First poll post a budget widely perceived to have been a success for the Tories & bungled by labour supporting high earner tax cuts shows....
A 3 pt rise for labour.... Just goes to show that pepsology is bobbins!
( this was obviously b4 sports minister resigned over government caving in to gambling industry over FOBT. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tracey-crouch-resigns-sports-minister-delay-betting-fixed-odds-government-a8613256.html )
bungled by labour supporting high earner tax cuts shows….
A 3 pt rise for labour
Perhaps the latter means the former wasn't bungling after all?
Why does he keep giving them ammunition. 🙁
Perhaps he's playing a blinder. Let the Tories cancel Brexit while he's still seen as supporting it, get the support of the Left and disgruntled Brexiters, cruise into power and then never mention leaving again. Hope springs eh?
Perhaps he’s playing a blinder. Let the Tories cancel Brexit while he’s still seen as supporting it, get the support of the Left and disgruntled Brexiters, cruise into power and then never mention leaving again.
I agree he's played a blinder on Brexit from the very beginning. I was referring to his remembrance day choices. (And the fact that once he gets the inevitable bad press his strongest supporters all share the bad press on FB - linking to the bloody story! I seriously wonder if the Tabloids give him a share of the profit all those clicks are generating.)
If you mean his raincoat, then I can't see why that should get any flack whilst those wearing military outfits adorned with medals for doing hee haw except being born don't.
Don't think the falklands is going hove into view to save the Maybot so he can wear what ever the **** he likes
I can’t see why that should get any flack
It shouldn't, but it's entirely forseeable that it would. (As would anything other than the 'vanilla' plastic and paper poppy.)
Why give the gutter press any more clickbait than you absolutely have to....
<p>Meanwhile in the news outside of the comics for the permemantly outraged:</p><p> https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/99747/jeremy-corbyn-vows-end-scourge-ex-troops-sleeping</p>
Got a feeling Corbyn might have done a Michael Foot moment at the memoraisl today.
Why give the gutter press any more clickbait than you absolutely have to…
Because they will just make shit up anyway. Best to give them something obvious to look foolish about.
I am guessing, like last time, he stayed around a tad longer than most of the great and good who got the quick service in before sodding off for tea away from the plebs.
If you ask me he was taking the piss out of Donald Trump.
Because they will just make shit up anyway. Best to give them something obvious to look foolish about.
Eh? Why is that best?
If he wanted to make a deliberate error because the media was going to make stuff up anyway, then he should have blown a raspberry as Charlie was bending to lay a wreath. It would at least have got a laugh.
Eh? Why is that best?
That anyone sensible would quickly see this is bollocks. Whereas left to their own devices they might invent something a bit more interesting and harder to point out its rubbish
So who would vote for him .....now I've found the thread because some of us don't spend every waking ****ing minute of our lives on here.
So who would vote for him …..
With the current alternatives, I would. He has been ineffectual in opposition to brexit, but that is still a cluster **** of the tories making. He hasn't really done much else wrong (although that is a biggie) and most of the criticism against him is based on unsubstantiated media slurs.
So who would vote for him …..now I’ve found the thread because some of us don’t spend every waking **** minute of our lives on here.
People who live in Islington.
So who would vote for him …..now I’ve found the thread because some of us don’t spend every waking **** minute of our lives on here.
Ha ha, I know how you feel (viz STW).
As per the last thread, No, I won't vote for Labour under the current leadership.
I can't vote for their polices (well his polices).
I trust Corbyn, but I can only trust him to do things I wouldn't like and don't think are good for the country.
I don't like him, I especially hate the way he cannot handle having people within the party who don't agree with him.
I also believe he is Pro-Leave with every fibre of his being (and why not, his hardcore socialist Labour fore-bearers despised the EU too) but doesn't have the balls to say so, he's vague and dismissive of the Brexit process hoping to hold onto 'New' Labour voters like myself, which polls on the last election showed decided to vote for him at the last moment through a combination of loyalty a local politicians making vague promises about reversing A50.
Gets my vote.
Their policy should reflect what their membership wants. This is what Corbyn promised about all labour policy.
Strange he’s giving interviews about Brexit that state the opposite, then...
So who would vote for him …..now I’ve found the thread because some of us don’t spend every waking **** minute of our lives on here.
About 40% of the population
I'd look at them tactically as I would prefer the Lib Dems
I don't get why political parties make it so difficult on themselves by having a leading figure that a significant part of the population will just never vote for.
I like Corbyn. I like what he stands for. I would always choose an ethical human being over an unethical one.
But the labour party would run away with any election under a different leader. I won't even say he's too divisive (though he can be). Many people just don't have the confidence he can do it. Personally, I'm glad he's there to represent his views, but I don't think he's the right man for the top spot.
I'm no fan of his but I'd vote for him because I despise the Tories and the damage they're doing to our country.
I’m no fan of his but I’d vote for him because I despise the Tories and the damage they’re doing to our country.
That's the thing. Most people are of that opinion, yet half of them still won't vote for Corbyn.
That’s the thing. Most people are of that opinion, yet half of them still won’t vote for Corbyn.
I'd guess they assume, like me, that his polices would be more damaging than current ones, or not suitably less damaging to switch alliances.
That’s the thing. Most people are of that opinion, yet half of them still won’t vote for Corbyn.
Probably because they can't separate policies from person. Politics has turned into personality more than ever and I agree they would be better off with a personality front man.
p jay - which policies are you reffering to? The labour party policies are almost all mainstream social democratic. Nothing "hard left" at all
Personally I am far more likely to vote labour now than I was pre Corbyn. Labour lost me as a supporter a decade or so ago with Mandelsons" very relaxed" about the super rich and also the loss of internal democracy under Blair alng with Murphys antics
My issue is that in Scotland they still have to sort their shit out and actually engage with holyrood rather than just opposing the SNP on everything because they hate the snp and It will take me a long time to forgive the labour / tory pact that led to 10 tory mps in scotland and prevented a labour government. Also my local labour MP is so ghastly that I can never vote for her. A despicable person. A liar.
Personally I am far more likely to vote labour now than I was pre Corbyn. Labour lost me as a supporter a decade or so ago with Mandelsons” very relaxed” about the super rich and also the loss of internal democracy under Blair alng with Murphys antics
Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at, though I stopped voting for them because of the Iraq war.
Memories are short as to just how hollowed out the labour party came under Blair/Brown/Miliband etc. There was a complete absence of morality and principle. All that mattered was being in power, and then being embarrassed about the stuff they did that was good (yes, some of it was good). There was also an iron grip on the party with almost dictatorial control which completely stifled debate. It's ironic that some accuse Corbyn of the same despite the fact he's spent two years returning power to the membership and opening up debate on pretty much every subject imaginable.
For all Corbyn's faults and apparent shortcomings, at least we can now be sure that the labour party is actually the labour party. I'm more of a McDonnell supporter than Corbyn, he's more radical and open minded, and also more competent. I'll vote labour under either though.
Ah Daz, still trying to wipe out the history of the labour party that won elections. Three of them in fact.
Your boy couldn't win against the worst conservative government in a very long time. He won't win next time.
I find it incredible that while I support many of the social democratic policies of the Labour party, there are folk who don't have the nous to see that Corbyn and his ilk won't win. He can open up what he likes to the membership. The membership aren't the ones to impress.
As mentioned above, politics has become about personalities not policies, terrible really, but considering the other personalities in on the other side in this game, a half decent labour LEADER would be murdering this lot.
The way the voting system works in conjunction with the media hit squad, means that a much more savvy wolf in sheeps clothing leader is required for the job.
Labour going back to what you see labour should be, will only end one way as it stands, in opposition.
Who then El-bent? I ask because I see no one with those qualities in labour right now - bar perhaps Starmer?
bar perhaps Starmer?
Starmer would be perfect, IMO - I think he is gunning for Jeremys job, when we go full-Brexit and the young voters turn on Jezza.
Of that "Best PM" question, Lib:Dem voters* are 2:1 in favour of May and only 68% of Labour voters* reckon Corbyn.
(* by vote at last GE).
Your boy couldn’t win against the worst conservative government in a very long time.
That was the all conquering conservative government who were going to win a landslide victory and were heavily aided by the "moderates" in Labour doing their best to undermine their leadership? They only became the worse conservative government in a very long time after the glorious victory failed. Not least because Corbyn actually got some airtime.
L<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">abour going back to what you see labour should be, will only end one way as it stands, in opposition.</span>
Whereas Labour chasing the tories rightwards ends in only one way. Hard right policies being normalised as "centrist" and a large proportion of the population wondering who represents them and whether brexit would be a good idea.
and a large proportion of the population wondering who represents them and whether brexit would be a good idea.
Nail on the head. The reason populists like UKIP get airtime is because the so called 'grown-ups' begin to take the general public for granted. And no, before anyone pipes up, Corbyn isn't a populist. Populists are politicians who jump on whatever bandwagon goes past and use dog-whistle politics to stir up hatred to gain votes.
Ah Daz, still trying to wipe out the history of the labour party that won elections. Three of them in fact.
Where did he say they didn't? It is a fact that Labour was on the slide, the choice was to continue in the same vein, or change course.
I'm pretty apathetic when it comes to voting, partly laziness but mostly I don't agree with or trust any of the options, I'm sure I'm not alone. Something needs to change and Corbyn is the only party leader that offers that, I don't agree with a lot of his policies but I do trust him more than any Tory (certainly one likely to end up as leader).
Nothing radical ever happens with politics in this country (these days) anyway, 4 year cycles and first past the post means everyone's always got their eye on the next election, not fixing stuff now or trying something that takes a long time to have a positive effect. None of the main parties are likely to screw things up enough with their watered-down, voter-friendly policies to have any real impact on my day to day life anyway.
Nothing radical ever happens with politics in this country (these days)
Agree
None of the main parties are likely to screw things up enough with their watered-down, voter-friendly policies to have any real impact on my day to day life anyway.
Nor me bit we are the lucky ones. Even the non radical changes can have an impact to many less fortunate than us, i.e. austerity and the wide reaching impact of the various cuts.
It is not about specific policies, it is the direction of travel and what they stand for| which is why the party leader is not the thing people should be most worried about
22nd Feb 2016 TG? Is this a prophesy or just really old?
What prompted you to dig that one out?
22nd of Feb 2016 Burnham and Eagles on the front bench FFS, someone isn't keeping up. What relevance is a 2 year old clip of commons heckling?
Did anyone see Delia at the football the other day?
“Who are you ?”
If the Govt collapses in the next couple of days, and if the SNP will support him, the answer to that question will be "The PM". I bet he was a bit nervous last night until Gove stayed on the sinking ship today.
someone isn’t keeping up.
Such is the tory way and living in the past and all that.
What's changed? They were near neck an neck a short while back.
Corbyn's "leadership" of Labour one of the most pressing antisemitic incidents of 2018 according to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre:
"
Jeremy Corbyn has been named in an annual list of the top ten antisemitic incidents around the world.
The Simon Wiesenthal Centre, a human rights organisation which researches the Holocaust, placed Mr
Corbyn fourth in the list.
The Labour leader was dogged by accusations of antisemitism for much of the summer after The Times’s revelation that he had hosted an event comparing Israel to the Nazis. This was followed by claims that he had been present as a wreath was laid for Palestinians involved in the Black September terrorist group.
The centre, which is based in Los Angeles, wrote: “Allegations of antisemitism on the part of key members and officials of the UK’s Labour Party officials have piled up in recent years, injecting the world’s oldest hatred into the mainstream of society. Party leader Jeremy Corbyn stands directly responsible."
Still banging the drum I see, did they look a little closer at the events> Or just the headlines?
It does show you just what happens if you show support for Palestine though, they mobilise the lot against you.
The Labour leader was dogged by accusations of antisemitism for much of the summer after The Times’s revelation that he had hosted an event comparing Israel to the Nazis.
critism of the actions of Israel is not necessarily anti-semitic - is the UN security council anti-semitic as they keep making resolutions that aren't in Israels favour and are in favour of international law which the Israelis keep breaking.
https://www.ipsc.ie/israels-violations-of-international-law-a-brief-introduction
Personally I think it is time these resolutions were enforced...
In other non-news, he's banging on about scrapping hospital parking charges again. Comments from many that places where no parking charges apply end up being used as commuter parking taking up space for patients and visitors.
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1078204839241371648?s=19
Comments from many that places where no parking charges apply end up being used as commuter parking taking up space for patients and visitors.
If only there were some sort of technological solution that could be used there to enforce and fine people who were not visiting or being treated...
I don't actually think he could handle the pressure or wants the job.
He's quite happy asking questions from the sidelines, could he deliver? - No
He’s quite happy asking questions from the sidelines, could he deliver? – No
Unfortunately not much is being delivered by anyone at the moment, it's almost as if once the brexit mess is sorted both parties need a chance to do some soul searching and then possibly hit the reset button, take on a GE and go from there.
Corbyn’s “leadership” of Labour one of the most pressing antisemitic incidents of 2018 according to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre:
Yawn. Perhaps while we're at it we could discuss his support for the IRA and Hamas too. TBH he's probably stronger at defending himself against this rubbish than he is on his stance on brexit. The problem is his brexit stance is much less defensible.