Jeremy Corbyn

Mental health is a pretty poor example as it had never been something the NHS does well. In the past it went along the lines of a person being taken to a mental health 'hospital' and the key being thrown away.

Whereas now we put them on the opposition front benches in the house of commons. 😀

But much better to use nice emotive terms such a privatisation - such bllx even pre-dates the emergence of #posttruthpolitics

Mental health is a pretty poor example as it had never been something the NHS does well. In the past it went along the lines of a person being taken to a mental health 'hospital' and the key being thrown away.

Indeed - see my earlier point about history beginning sometime in the mid eighties.

The Ely and other similar scandals appalled the nation at the time, and led directly to care in the community due to the horrors (both in patient care and industrial relations) of institutionalisation

Universal free healthcare and education are [s]Socialist [/s] principles shared by all UK political parties,

FIFY. This is one reason Labour are in such trouble as their message of "we are the party to save the nhs and support education" is seen as total bllx.

Healthcare isn't free, its costs £130bn a year. Labour comitted to increase spending by £2bn the Tories by £8bn. Election winning policy that. The best way to help the NHS is to have a healthy economy, Labour had little credibility in that area in 2015 and they have even less now.

I personally think the NHS is not fit for purpose and needs a radical rethink and a much larger budget.

Also Labour need some aspirational policies. Currently they are offering nothing. Labour's "roots" and relationships with Trade Unions are widely seen as dated and irrelevant in todays modern world. The PMQ reference to Ogreave said it all. Labour can make that a manifesto commitment for 2020 and see how it resonates or not with the electorate.

The NHS was setup to provide universal health care at start and end of life. Its being asked to do many many things it was never intended to do. I think its quite bizarre we expect when we break a bone riding our bikes costing £1000's that the NHS fixes us for free. We have holiday medical insurance even when visiting EU countries, think about that. It doesn't stop us going does it ?

EDiT we cannot have a sensible conversation about the NHS as the politcial bs is off the charts, as soon as reform is even discussed its all "privitisng the nhs". As was covered during Brexit most Brits living in Spain prefer their health service as its better. Labour are a guilty as anyone for the mess we are in wrt healthcare

Yes TMH....that last paragraph seems to sum it up nicely. So won't be expecting a concise answer from Ernie anytime soon then!

well the bar for humour levels from UK politicians has just been lowered hugely by Corbyn rattling on about his cat...

So won't be expecting a concise answer from Ernie anytime soon then!

You best not expect any sort of answer anytime soon from me. I have no idea what the question is.

I am not following this thread in any detail, I just occasionally have a peek to make sure that it's still a completely pointless thread packed with Tory voters giving their opinions on what's best for the Labour Party, and that binners is still ranting endlessly about middle-class southerners with special dietary needs, or whatever it is that upsets a salt-of-the-earth working-class northerner like him.

I am not following this thread in any detail, I just occasionally have a peek to make sure that it's still a completely pointless thread

Posting history would suggest otherwise - but if true, why get involved in a "completely pointless" thread anyway?!?

thread packed with [s]Tory[/s] ex-Labour voters giving their opinions on what's best for the Labour Party,

FIFY

As for our opinions did we not warn everyone that Corbyn would be a disaster ? It seems to be working out just we guessed it would

I am not following this thread in any detail, I just occasionally have a peek to make sure that it's still a completely pointless thread packed with Tory voters giving their opinions on what's best for the Labour Party,

The RW are more interested in the "trot" than the "trots"

So at Corbyn's campaign launch he speaks of a "kinder gentler politics" once more nut as Owen Smith points out that doesn't fit with Corbyn's behaviour and the threat to deselect MPs if they show disloyalty to him. All quite amusing from the man who has spent his career voting largely against the Labour Party in Parliament.

Poor ex Labour now Tory voters! It sounds like voting Blair was the best moment of their lives.

Just don't understand why Tories care so much. You want the Tories in power and Corbyn is "unelectable" what's the problem?

I will wager he has voted less times against the party than you have said it

threat to deselect MPs

I will wager he has voted less times against the party than you have said it

I would take that bet but I know you are a not a betting man. 500 odd times and I have posted that statement far less times than that.

@Alex thats a fair point, I read the comment in the Indy and at BBC and have watched coverage at BBC, Sky, Indy but the actual footage of that was not included

So if this new gentler brand of politics the Beardy Messiah is now advocating had always been around then the Glorious Leader himself would have been deselected about 28 years ago?

Priceless! 😆

@Alex - so what he said was due fo boundary changes due to take effect in 2020 if he is leader all Labour MPs will face reselection. Certainly sounds like a threat to me

Junky and ernie given the left leaning bias on STW where are all the Labour supporters chipping in to this thread ?

kinder gentler politics

Well that's just a complete contradiction of what he stands for. He has a vested interest in perpetuating the persitent ideology of division, prejudice, inequality and hate. Think about it. The moment he comes out and says 'we've achieved equality' his whole reason for existence disappears.

Personally I think we are as equal as we will ever be, which is to say that there is a lot of inequality around but it's equal in all directions.

Also love the way he's still playing with the myth that the gender pay gap is 20%. It's not and hasn't been for some time.

geetee1972 - Member

Also love the way he's still playing with the myth that the gender pay gap is 20%. It's not and hasn't been for some time.

19.2%.
http://visual.ons.gov.uk/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap/

It's amazing what you can pack into a day if you don't waste it on here. 🙂

Let's have a look what the usual suspects have posted; ah, shite, shite and more shite. So no change there then. 😆

"He has a vested interest in perpetuating the persitent ideology of division, prejudice, inequality and hate"

Which of course is why he's spent his entire political career campaigning for the opposite. 😕

"Think about it"

Clearly, you haven't.

"Junky and ernie given the left leaning bias on STW"

😆

This forum has anything but a 'left leaning bias'.

Jambalaya; what colour is a red London bus?

He has a vested interest in perpetuating the persitent ideology of division, prejudice, inequality and hate.

Surely this is entirely consistent with his beliefs though - maintaining class consciousness is an objective necessity in order to create the conditions for socialist revolution and fuel a popular uprising against the bourgeoisie.

"Surely this is entirely consistent with his beliefs though - maintaining class consciousness is an objective necessity in order to create the conditions for socialist revolution and fuel a popular uprising against the bourgeoisie."

I don't think you quite understood the statement you are responding to. 😆

Or much else, for that matter.

Police have advised Angela Eagle they cannot gauranty to keep her safe at her constituency meetings so she has cancelled them. Kinder gentler politics.

On the membershio it has been reprted that 40,000 of ten180,000 applications have been rejected and also that numerous groups have been offering to lend (give ?) people the £25 to register. Naughty naughty and against the rules. Buying votes and influence anyone ?

This forum has anything but a 'left leaning bias'.

Massively so 3:1 in terms of regular posters on chat/political threads ?

Police have advised Angela Eagle they cannot gauranty to keep her safe at her constituency meetings so she has cancelled them. Kinder gentler politics.

Well this interesting. The latest YouGov poll gives the Tories an 11 percent lead over Labour.

This is surprisingly low imo given that firstly, 80 percent of Labour MPs have very publicly attacked the Labour leader - a completely unprecedented move in UK Parliamentary history.

And secondly, the new Tory leader is still very much enjoying the start of the "honeymoon period" which all new leaders/prime minsters enjoy - even Gordon Brown enjoyed a honeymoon period when he first became prime minister, which hugely benefited the Labour Party's standing in opinion polls.

I am honestly and genuinely surprised.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-poll-lead-yougov-labour-theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-first-pmqs-thatcher-a7146526.html ]Tories open 11-point poll lead over Labour as assured Theresa May attacks Jeremy Corbyn in first PMQs[/url]

But what makes this YouGov poll particularly noteworthy is that in 2008, when the Labour Party was firmly united behind Gordon Brown, a YouGov poll gave the Tories a 20 percent lead over Labour.

[url= http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/08/09/another-20-point-lead-for-cameron/ ]The Tory YouGov lead drops to 20%[/url]

[i][b]"The main conclusion from the poll is that we have got a little bit closer to the general election and still there is no major change in Labour’s position. The time is ticking by and Labour is still facing disaster."[/i][/b]

Less than 2 years later in the general election of 2010 the Tory lead over Labour had collapsed to 7 percent, and they were unable to form a government on their own.

Now unlike jambalaya I don't know what the general election result in 4 years time will be, but I do know that the Labour Party has been in a worse electoral situation than it is now, despite all the self-inflected damage. And I also know that they have recovered remarkably well, so who knows? Apart from jambalaya and all the other Tories/right-wingers of course.

ernie_lynch - Member
Well this interesting.

So it isn't a

a completely pointless thread

😐

This is surprisingly low imo given that firstly, 80 percent of Labour MPs have very publicly attacked the Labour leader - a completely unprecedented move in UK Parliamentary history.

And secondly, the new Tory leader is still very much enjoying the start of the "honeymoon period" which all new leaders/prime minsters enjoy - even Gordon Brown enjoyed a honeymoon period when he first became prime minister, which hugely benefited the Labour Party's standing in opinion polls.

I am honestly and genuinely surprised.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Yes Flashheart. We are living in very politically interesting times, not just here but across the western world.

The topic of this thread reflects this and it could be the basis for an interesting debate.

Unfortunately the thread has been rendered pointless by the usual petty point-scorers who would rather post silly pictures and rant instead of engaging in intelligent debate.

So yes, the latest opinion poll is indeed "interesting", but ninfan's usual smartarse response, as typified above, isn't particularly interesting. Although I'm sure that he feels very pleased with himself.

[quote=jambalaya ]Junky and ernie given the left leaning bias on STW where are all the Labour supporters chipping in to this thread ?

Drowned out by the usual RW folk on here?
Perhaps they have something better to do than debating the labour party with a rag tackle bunch of rampant RW haterz?

Its just you saying you dislike Corbyn - I have got that point

TBH if he started shittign gold blocks you would complain they were too small or that the blocks were racist or bullying or some such nonsense

Instead I will discuss it with other labour party members ad vote as I see fit.
What you and other RW wont enter my mind for a second as I am sure you wont think of me when you vote tory.

TBH if he started shittign gold blocks

I'd vote for him if he could do that.

Edit: I'd settle for a tax cut. I'd happily do without trident if it's a decent one.

Ernie - You're just in s strop because I picked holes in your left-wing hero worship of Che by pointing out that his actions couldn't be further from the Marxist-Leninist principled candle that you hold for him if he tried 😆

Edit - Actually, I withdraw that, maybe you're just frustrated with yourself because you're embarrassed about someone showing you up on an issue of left-wing ideology.

[img] [/img]

Re gender pay gap

Has anyone actually read the ONS report?

The key % in there is [b]comparable[/b] pay - not the overall gap - and this % is half of what Northwind has quoted

Inevitably it is the headline that those who can't be bothered to read (ie most journos) always quote

Not that I'm defending the fact that there is a difference - there should be a rate for the role; the gender etc of the job holder is irrelevant

Ernie - You're just in s strop because I picked holes in .....

Yes I'm in a terrible strop.........I hate it when you pick holes

lol

Has anyone actually read the ONS report?

I have. That's why I know that the true like for like gap is around 9% and this does not account for the fact that men change jobs once every three years whereas for women it's once every five years. That frequency of change can readily account for a 9% difference since the only time you ever have any reaslistic prospect for increasing your salary (by more than just RPI) is when you chance jobs.

You can typicall expect to add about 10% when you change jobs in a blue collar position so within a ten year window, there's your so called 'gender pay gap'.

The figure of 20% is the difference in actual earnings and reflects many other factors that are largely down to personal choice.

On the membershio it has been reprted that 40,000 of ten180,000 applications have been rejected and also that numerous groups have been offering to lend (give ?) people the £25 to register. Naughty naughty and against the rules. Buying votes and influence anyone ?

LOL! Not voting this time the Jamby?

Probably all Tories that have been rejected FFS

he is funny isnt he
Openly said he voted and then moaning that they are now blocking folk like him voting

Whichever reality occurs it once that he will slag off. as will al the RW on here. In no sense is this a debate.

That frequency of change can readily account for a 9% difference

Its quite bizarre that after 45 years we still dont have equal pay

The figure of 20% is the difference in actual earnings and reflects many other factors that are largely down to personal choice.

theaccountant - Member

The key % in there is comparable pay - not the overall gap - and this % is half of what Northwind has quoted

Nope. The 9.4% is comparing full time with full time, and yes that does give you a direct comparison of that exact circumstance, but it doesn't give a true representation of real world pay conditions because it's a direct comparison of only a limited subset of employees.

There are various useful statistics you can look at in this but the point is, it's obviously untrue to say that the 20% figure Corbyn refers to is a myth.

Probably all Tories that have been rejected FFS

I very much doubt that jambalaya's claim of 40,000 rejections is true.

The registration was a two day window with a deadline of 5pm yesterday. It is unlikely, in the extreme, that they have managed to vet 40,000 (all of them rejected) out of the 180,000 total in just one day. Vetting includes making a personal phone call to each individual.

[i]
"The huge number of registered supporters comes despite the NEC ruling the fee should be more than eight times higher than 2015, when it cost just £3.

Around 105,000 registered supporters voted in 2015, though thousands more were excluded by the party’s vetting procedures. This time 183,541 supporters signed up in a two-day window, which last year was several weeks.

Labour party headquarters had hoped to avoid the administration burden of vetting hundreds of thousands of new members and supporters, but will have a month to do so before ballot papers are sent out in late August."[/i]

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/20/labour-stops-crowd-funding-bid-to-help-supporters-pay-for-vote ]Labour signs up more than 180,000 supporters to vote in leadership contest[/url]

just occasionally have a peek

#croydondefence*

*IIRC, you are somewhere around Croydon, Ernest. My apologies if you're not. In fact, my congratulations if you're not.

One might also like to ask WHY men are able to change jobs more frequently?

I think men are more willing to take risks and women value security more. Men are also more aggressive negotiators for the same reason, another reason why you still see a persistent pay difference despite the legislation and changing attitudes.

The 9.4% is comparing full time with full time, and yes that does give you a direct comparison of that exact circumstance, but it doesn't give a true representation of real world pay conditions because it's a direct comparison of only a limited subset of employees.

I think you're making our argument for us. No one is saying that if you take the set of all men and all women in work and do the math the difference isn't 20% because it is.

The point is, that difference does NOT represent discrimination or disadvantage. It represents choice.

But I tell you what, if you want to fix the persistent issue of there being this difference in earnings, then you also need to fix the pernicious and highly discriminatory situation we have in parenting roles and how fathers are disadvantaged by the system.

Until you have parity in the importance we give to BOTH parents in the fammily/parenting roles, you aren't going to solve that problem (and you can thank the likes of Hariet Harman for that).

Consider this. Now that fathers can take up to six months of shared parenting leave (shared with their partner) why can't they also get the same compensation package that their female colleages get.

A woman gets nine months paid maternity leave say from her employer but the men don't get that. It's clearly discrimination.