Jeremy Corbyn

I agree with dazh if this is a new movement then they need to crack on and the legacy MPS and members who are not at one with this need to resign/move/create a new party ... I might not like it but like the Brexit voters it is a form of democracy even if they don't know what to do once they have a Brexit or Labour Party. I think there is a pattern emerging of protest votes without a plan... it's all the fashion you know

Even my username should remove any doubt of my commitment Marxist-Leninism.

Eh? Surely some mistake, widely accepted that Che's beliefs and tactics were clear deviations from Marxism-Leninism? He was more of a Marxist-based left-radical revolutionary adventurist.

You don't understand what true Marxism-Leninism is ninfan. It's not about accepting every word uttered by two men as the Gospel Truth, whatever those on the ultra-left might suggest. My ideology liberated me and gave me the ability to think for myself. It provided me with the tools to this by allowing me to understand society from a class conscious perspective. Every position without exception that I take with regards to politics is from this perspective. Obviously not everyone comes to the same conclusions, Marxism-Leninism is not about everyone having identical thoughts - as far as I'm aware Mikhail Gorbachev still calls himself a Marxism-Leninist, there's an ocean which separates me and him. Although very little which separates me and someone like Jim Larkin, or Bob Crow and Mick McGahey for more contemporary examples.

they are not really "party members" they are entryists

The Labour Party is not experiencing any sort of "entryism", if it were it would be extraordinarily easy to identify.

You cannot have an organised strategy, with all the publicity it would require for it to be successful, of joining on mass a political party without leaving a huge amount of very easily identifiable evidence.

When the Militant Tendency practiced the classic Trotskyite strategy of entryism into the Labour Party in the 1980s they were perfectly open about who they were and what they were doing.

They even quite openly sold their very aptly named newspaper [i]"The Militant Tendency"[/i] at all Labour Party meetings/functions which they attended.

They made no secret whatsoever of who they were, what their ideology was, and what they were doing.

For a very long time the Labour Party did absolutely nothing to stop them, although there were mutterings of disapproval from some members in the party as they invariably put selling their newspaper and canvassing for their approved candidates above other considerations - there were officially Militant Tendency backed candidates.

It was Neil Kinnock who decided to purge the Labour Party of the Militant Tendency. The jury's still out as far as I'm concerned whether that was justifiable - on the one hand I'm not a Trot and I don't approve of many of their tactics including entryism, but on the other hand they had as much right to be in the Labour Party as the right-wingers did. Unlike other Trots the Militant Tendency were predominately working-class trade unionists so they had as much right to call the Labour Party their party as a privately educated barrister such as Tony Blair has, more in fact imo.

Today the Labour Party is not experiencing any entryism, people are joining as individuals, and in far greater numbers than the total of all the Trot organisations put together.

Of course it serves the interests of Tories and right-wingers, such as jambalaya, to darkly suggest of a sinister and covert operation of infiltration within the Labour Party. US Senator McCarthy used very similar fear tactics of false claims of subversive infiltration to great effect in the Red Scare of 70 years ago. It's a very old right-wing ploy.

State control (interference)

What, control of important public infrastructure by the public's elected representatives? Sounds horrific. Far better we let private companies leach wealth out of the country's economy.

Wealth redistribution

So, left wing policies to make the rich slightly less rich and to lift the poor out of poverty are worse that neoliberal policies that facilitate the rich becoming obscene while driving the poor into destitution?

Higher spending

Can be offset by the below, and increase in tax revenue through the improved economy as a result of investment into critical infrastructure and industries.

Reduced spending on defence and security generally

Offsets the above. And as per a few pages back, who is going to invade us anyway?

Republicanism

So despite openly advocating to leave the "undemocratic" EU, you're quite happy with an unelected hereditary head of state, or German origin nonetheless.

One day a rabid right winger will come up with a semi-valid political argument, but I very much doubt that it will be you, Jamby.

Ernie - it's hardly like I'm the first person to challenge whether Che was a true Marxist-Leninist, hell, everyone from Enver Hoxha to CPGB have argued otherwise.

Quite specifically, the argument that Che was a Leninist falls down on the fact that his revolutionary approach was undeniably undemocratic, it sought to overthrow the established leadership and bring about socialism from above rather than below, this was no uprising and revolution of the proletariat by the proletariat - not even an emancipation of the masses with a revolutionary vanguard of the proletariat aligned with the peasantry, seeking to bring about a socialist democracy. Instead the very opposite occurred, after overthrowing the old order, a new leadership, as undemocratic as the last, took power. This remains undeniably conflicted with the principles of Leninism.

Today the Labour Party is not experiencing any entryism, people are joining as individuals, and in far greater numbers than the total of all the Trot organisations put together.

What is the part in Momentum in all of this then? innocent bystanders looking on bemused? I was talking to a friend last night who is active in labour party politics in Manchester City Council. He was talking last night about the exasperation presently being felt at having their dealings hijacked by what he referred to as 'hard left idiots' who proudly identified themselves as Momentum members. Oh... and I'll predict your next statement, and counter it by saying he's a good man, and far from being a 'red tory, or whatever this weeks term of abuse is, has been active in the Labour party since the 70's, and has the best interests of the working people of manchester in his blood. Its a commonly voiced frustration

So saying this differs from the 80's and the Militant tendency is just semantics. Its exactly the same. And the end result will also be exactly the same. Unopposed Tory rule until the party comes to its senses and boots the lot of them out But like Militant before them, Momentum don't actually care about this. They're far too insular and obsessed with their own pointless leftie flag waving, and denouncing everything and everybody in sight, while offering no real world answers or solutions.

US Senator McCarthy used very similar fear tactics of false claims of subversive infiltration to great effect in the Red Scare of 70 years ago.

You're seriously comparing this to the McCarthy purges? Sweet jesus! Your paranoia really knows no bounds, does it? Thats so utterly and completely preposterous, it actually scares me that people like you are deciding the future of the labour party. How is it hunkered down in your paranoid leftist echo chamber? You really should maybe come out once in a while and interact with the real world.

It's a very old right-wing ploy.

Yeah, yeah... isn't everything?

Yeah, yeah... isn't everything?

I hope you are saying that from the context of class consciousness

"what's wrong with a left wing agenda?"

The fact that Socialism has never worked anywhere in the world ever.

The fact that Socialism has never worked anywhere in the world ever.

everyone from Enver Hoxha to CPGB have argued otherwise

Enver Hoxha ! 😆 Like I give a monkeys what Enver Hoxha had to say about anything.

I will concede that Guevara did have some pro-Maoist tendencies, which is obviously at odds with my own extremely anti-Maoist views. However firstly by the time of his death the full catastrophic failure of Maoism had not been established (he died at the start of the Cultural Revolution) and secondly, see my previous post with regards to not all Marxist-Leninists having identical thoughts.

And btw I never in all my years as a CPGB member ever heard Guevara's commitment to Leninism challenged. Although to be fair he was never a hot topic of discussion, can't remember him ever being discussed.

Anyway this is completely off topic - a tactic much favoured by you ninfan. Suffice to say that I take issue with anyone who tries to claim that I'm not Marxist, please take note enfht.

.

And sorry binners, I see you've quoted me but I don't read your rambling rants these days, I'm unlikely to learn anything useful and debating anything with you on this thread is as pointless as debating anything with ninfan, big n daft, jambalaya, and all the other Tory voters, specially on the issue of the Labour Party.

Try posting a short post consisting of just a few sentences and I might bother 💡

The fact that Socialism has never worked anywhere in the world ever.

Adding "fact" to an untrue statement doesn't make it true. FACT

Fair point, I was way too uncompromising in my assertion.

....but since we're on the topic, care to suggest a successful socialist economy the rest of the world's nations should use as a blue-print?

Imagine that? A Corbyn voting, Marxist Momentum member dismissing everyone else's opinion as non-valid?

Whatever next?

Back to the bunker comrade, to keep fighting the good fight...

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Well done binners, I managed to read that - it was short and concise.

The Iron Lady's hidden sympathiser doth protest too much, methinks

The Labour Party is not experiencing any sort of "entryism",

But retains a SOH 😉

if it were it would be extraordinarily easy to identify.

What like same people, strategy, tactics......result.

Thought I'd check on here whilst having a cuppa, lo and behold- Binners is here [i]again[/i]! 😆

"So saying this differs from the 80's and the Militant tendency is just semantics. Its exactly the same. "

You're seriously comparing Momentum to the Militant tendency? Sweet Jesus! Your 'friend' obviously doesn't know what 'hard left' actually is; it certainly isn't Momentum!

Where does this 'friend' live, New Islington? 😉

"it actually scares me that people like you are deciding the future of the labour party"

You're free of course to go and join any party you chose, that closer fits your own political ideals. From what I've read here, your absolute hatred of the Left suggests you're not really someone who believes in the traditional core Labour values, as set out by Kier Hardie and the founding members of the Labour movement.

The LibDems are over there. Somewhere.

You're free of course to go and join any party you chose, that closer fits your own political ideals.

The irony continues.....Cuckoo, cuckoo......

I was talking to a friend last night who is active in labour party politics in Manchester City Council. He was talking last night about the exasperation presently being felt at having their dealings hijacked by what he referred to as 'hard left idiots'

It does make me wonder just what it is the labour party wants. Back in my student days I was pretty active in grassroots environmental politics and various other stuff (sitting up trees etc), and we used to come across the labour party a lot. I lost count of the number of times a labour activist or councillor tried to get me and my mates to join the party. They always used to say they need more young, passionate people in the party with new ideas, that instead of being on the sidelines protesting we could help create real change and be united against the real enemy (the tories, obviously). Yet now that appears to be happening they don't like it and seem to be doing their best turn away these new people (they're not all trots BTW, I know a lot, and they couldn't be more opposed to the socialist workers and their ilk).

Like I said, the labour party now has the largest membership of any political party in Europe. If they can't, or are unwilling, to find a way of harnessing that and turning it into electoral success then they might as well pack up and go home.

.but since we're on the topic, care to suggest a successful socialist economy the rest of the world's nations should use as a blue-print?

Venezu...oh, actually....

Meanwhile in further Labour 'you couldn't make it up' news, according to Dianne Abbot, Jezza's absolutely woeful performance at PMQ's [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36853932 ]isn't his fault[/url]

"but since we're on the topic, care to suggest a successful socialist economy the rest of the world's nations should use as a blue-print?"

Well, seeing as how most modern democracies employ various aspects of Socialism to varying degrees, such as free to use healthcare, education and legal representation etc, shall we instead look at those nations which don't?

Oh and Binners; I assume you're a fully paid up member of the Labour party, and will be voting at the leadership elections?

You assumed right. A first. I suppose in the same way a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, it had to happen sooner or later.

So well done you!

Well, seeing as how most modern democracies employ various aspects of Socialism to varying degrees, such as free to use healthcare, education and legal representation etc, shall we instead look at those nations which don't?

Umm - Somalia has a pretty laissez-faire political system with minimal government interference in business.

So there you go. You have a chance to participate in a democratic process (not that there's actually a need for one right now, as the last one was fine!).

So what are you moaning about then?

I think what's really the issue here, is that you have suddenly realised you are in a minority when it comes to who Labour party members will vote for as leader, and you just don't like Corbyn. That's fine, but it's not about you, is it? It's about what the majority want. Because that's how democracy works. For all your wild ranting and plagiarised witticisms, there's really not much substance in your argument beyond 'I don't like Corbyn'. And then we're back to personality politics. Which is kind of why we're here talking about Corbyn and Labour. Personally, I'm not sure if Corbyn is the right person to lead Labour into the more distant future, but then I don't believe he thinks he is anyway. But I, and it seems hundreds of thousands of others, think he is the right person, right now, to lead Labour back towards where they should be on the political spectrum, and away from where the war criminal dragged it.

Well, seeing as how most modern democracies employ various aspects of Socialism to varying degrees, such as free to use healthcare, education and legal representation etc, shall we instead look at those nations which don't?

Phew, so we're all socialists now. That's a relief because a few days ago people were arguing that the UK had shifted to the right....shudders...

But there is shocking dishonesty in the line, leave and find a party that is better suited to your ideals.

Why have the cuckoos chosen the current labour party when it doesn't represent their views? Because they already have representation - 209 of them. Chosen in a democratic process to represent the labour views of those in their constituencies. But guess what, most of those democratically appointed representatives have no faith in their leader, nor do many union members, nor does most of the population. So the answer? Clean them out and replace with a self-selected group that represents a much smaller minority of the population.

Cuckoo, cuckoo....

Entryist: this is what it means to me. Someone who joins an organisation with the sole intent of radically modifying it to suit their own views. Contrast this to someone who joins a political party because they agree with its policies and wishes to support it in those endeavours.

TMH has it above, if Momentum stood as a politcal party it would finish nowhere, behind even the Greens. Thats why they are seeking to take over the Labour Party to hijack their infrastructure and MPs.

jambalaya - Member
...Momentum stood as a politcal party it would finish nowhere, behind even the Greens. Thats why they are seeking to take over the Labour Party to hijack their infrastructure and MPs.

But is it hi-jacking when they are trying to return it to its original values?

I'd say it's more like trying to get the pirates off your ship and get it back on course. 🙂

Umm - Somalia has a pretty laissez-faire political system with minimal government interference in business.

...and negative net immigration.

...and negative net immigration.

There ya go - a Brexiter's dream!! Forget Switzerland and Norway as role models!!

But is it hi-jacking when they are trying to return it to its original values?

Freedom for Ireland?
A levy on capital?
Universal suffrage?

"Cuckoo, cuckoo...."

Keep saying that, repeatedly. It makes you look realy clever.

"Phew, so we're all socialists now. That's a relief because a few days ago people were arguing that the UK had shifted to the right....shudders..."

Not noticed just how much things like health care and education have been privatised/made far more expensive? No?

Universal free healthcare and education are Socialist principles, and the introduction of these in the UK led to a fairer and more democratic society. Britain was a better place because of the introduction of these Socialist policies (which the Right vehemently opposed). Ironically, Britain left to the tories/right will end up needing such Socialism once more to get itself out of the mire.

"Why have the cuckoos chosen the current labour party when it doesn't represent their views?"

The 'cuckoos', as you call them, might just want to see the Labour party returned back where it belongs on the political spectrum, on the left. The only 'cuckoos' in the Labour party are the Blairites and right wingers, who dragged it away from where it belongs.

The only 'cuckoos' in the Labour party are the Blairites and right wingers, who dragged it away from where it belongs.

Minimum wage?
Capped/maximum working hours?

Both promised in LP 1918 election manifesto - finally delivered by Blair - how's that for dragging it back to where it belongs?

I really do love all these Labour Party evangelists for whom history seems to begin sometime in the mid eighties 😆

"finally delivered by Blair"

Because Tony Blair introduced the minimum wage etc all by himself, with no input from trade unions and myriad other groups and Labour members who'd been campaigning for it for years? Oh right. 🙄

Don't be daft. You can only mention Blair if you have the words' Iraq' and 'war criminal' in the same sentence. Thems the rules. Its the only thing he did, apparently.

Just listened to Jezza's leadership campaign launch speech. Stirring stuff. And not at all like listening to the treasurer of a pub bowling club reading out the minutes of the last meeting.

As he claimed the credit for the victory in the London Mayoral election, I'm sure I heard Sadiq Khan spit his tea all over his keyboard, then commence arrangements to have him killed 😀

Meanwhile in further Labour 'you couldn't make it up' news, according to Dianne Abbot, Jezza's absolutely woeful performance at PMQ's isn't his fault

"Its the only thing he did, apparently."

It's the thing he'll be most remembered for.

Why don't you write to Tony, and tell him how upset you are that the nasty mean Jeremy Corbyn has hijacked your party? I'm sure he'll listen to you. 😆

"As he claimed the credit for the victory in the London Mayoral election"

He didn't, but keep believing your own bullshit. Be careful you don't drown in it though.

Keep saying that, repeatedly. It makes you look realy clever.

Why thank you. Cuckoo, cuckoo...

Not noticed just how much things like health care and education have been privatised/made far more expensive? No?

Really? Have we abandoned health free at the point of delivery? What percentage of the UK population is educated in the private sector (including or excluding the 1/3 on bursaries)? But they have become more expensive true, a challenge when you commit to protecting them even as swivelled eyed RW loonies.

Universal free healthcare and education are Socialist principles, and the introduction of these in the UK led to a fairer and more democratic society. Britain was a better place because of the introduction of these Socialist policies (which the Right vehemently opposed).

Indeed, the characteristic of mixed economies is that they hopefully share the best aspects of both ends of the political spectrum. That's one reason why they work so well and why people vote for centrist parties that advocate such a system. Ironic that among the most vociferous opponents of the NHS were the BMA, but that's another story.

Ironically, Britain left to the tories/right will end up needing such Socialism once more to get itself out of the mire.

As in '83?

The 'cuckoos', as you call them, might just want to see the Labour party returned back where it belongs on the political spectrum, on the left. The only 'cuckoos' in the Labour party are the Blairites and right wingers, who dragged it away from where it belongs.

Right on comrade!

"Have we abandoned health free at the point of delivery?"

The privatisation of many parts of the NHS has led to a situation where the less 'profitable' sectors are increasingly underfunded to a point of near-collapse, meaning many don't get the treatment they need. Take a look at mental heath provision, for example. It's absolutely shocking (and then we wonder why nutters murder members of Parliament).

"But they have become more expensive true, a challenge when you commit to protecting them even as swivelled eyed RW loonies."

Yet we can afford Trident?

"As in '83?"

As in the period immediately following WW2.

"Right on comrade!"

Ah, that's what Lefties are supposed to say, is it? What do right-wingers shout? 'Sieg Heil'?

The privatisation of many parts of the NHS has led to a situation where the less 'profitable' sectors are increasingly underfunded to a point of near-collapse, meaning many don't get the treatment they need.

Oh I see. Missed that and don't even understand the logic. But if you say so.

Take a look at mental heath provision, for example. It's absolutely shocking (and then we wonder why nutters murder members of Parliament).

Oh, shall we blame the Toires for Jo Cox's awful murder?

Trident? What does the Labour Party and the Unions say? Can't recall.

Fine by me if you ignore the 83 manifesto and result. Fail to learn the lessons of history....

Its certainly an interesting thread so far and quite an education as to how the lefties and far lefties are all basing their differing views.

I just wonder with such intransigence on both sides.....where it will end? One question I'd like to ask Ernie is....Where do you see the LP in 5 years time, in terms of leader and number of MP's in Parliament?

RA on the intransigence of both sides, you might agree with

The institutional aims of the Labour Party are unclear. There is now a battle for the stricken party’s soul. It will be fought out between traditional socialists and social-democratic modernisers. But it will be a fight over an organisation that has already lost its direction and has no clear way forward. Both Blair and Corbyn bear some responsibility for this crisis.

http://newpolitics.apps-1and1.net/the-terminators-have-tony-blair-and-jeremy-corbyn-destroyed-the-labour-party

the characteristic of mixed economies is that they hopefully share the best aspects of both ends of the political spectrum.

Exactly any economy with too much of one side or the other is bound to fail. In the UK public and private interact at almost all levels, be it health care, housing, energy or transport.

Take a look at mental heath provision, for example. It's absolutely shocking

Mental health is a pretty poor example as it had never been something the NHS does well. In the past it went along the lines of a person being taken to a mental health 'hospital' and the key being thrown away.

Where do you see the LP in 5 years time, in terms of leader and number of MP's in Parliament?

Prime minister Milne will have just taken over from PM Corbyn with a healthy majority of 600 in the people's commissariat, the new constitution following JC's win abolished the House of Lords and the role of the Monarchy

Prime Minister Milne hopes that all companies will produce a gender pay audit but the People's Labour Momentum Party isn't a company as defined by PM Corbyn

In the UK public and private interact at almost all levels, be it health care, housing, energy or transport

Of course they do and largely successfully. But much better to use nice emotive terms such a privatisation - such bllx even pre-dates the emergence of #posttruthpolitics