Jeremy Corbyn

being effective in opposition

I keep reading this and I"ve really no idea what it means. Seems to me most people think it's getting a few digs in at PMQs or appearing on Question Time and the 6pm news.

And whilst I'm not sure Eagle will be much better she can't be any worse.

So you're happy for the labour party to risk self-destruction for a wild gamble on someone who is at least as uninspiring as him, and judging by recent efforts, even more clumsy with the media and much thinner on policy and ideas. It would appear brexit logic has now been applied to choosing labour leaders.

...into what until then had always been a Tory seat, which she won for Labour and which since then has turned into a safe Labour seat.

Labour lost in 1987 by fewer than 300 votes, this was despite a national landslide for the Tories. Given the national swing to Labour in 1992, Eagle would've had to work extremely hard to lose it.

It means making it difficult to implement policies that you disagree with, that can be through being challenging in the house (which he's not managing), or pushing the alternative discussion in the media (which he's not managing) or pointing out the issues and coming up with a counter policy that is persuasive enough that you engage the opposition enough to change their vote (and at the moment he's barely communicating policy to members let alone anyone else).

Labour is self destructing anyway, retaining Corbyn isn't going to stop that. By his own supporters admission he can't get the media to successfully represent his views there is therefore very little to be gained other than a warm sense of moral superiority to be gained by remaining in that position.

I don't know why the angle is that Corbyn is unelectable.

The Blairite Red Tory methodology no longer works. It depends on perception control, and that works as long as you have control of the flow of information and opinion, ie enough grip of the MSM to ensure your message is getting pumped out.

But with the growth of social media, and it's no longer limited to the young or early adopters, then the message can no longer be exclusively controlled. Fact checking is now easy, so a politician who is claiming to support some policy but votes against it, is quickly found out.

It is the Blairites who are the dinosaurs here, because instead of recognising this and changing their game they are chucking a massive hissy fit and displaying contempt towards what they obviously regard as a dumb underclass, ie the ordinary party members.

That dumb underclass now has other sources of information and can spot gross lies and deceit much easier.

There's a good chance any loss of support at the right wing of the party will be more than made up from people finally feeling enfranchised if they believe the Party will actually live up to its basic principles, and certainly enough people are flocking to the Party to suggest that support in the next GE will be much stronger.

Blairite Red Tory methodology

anyone who doesn't support corbyn is a 'blairite'?

That dumb underclass now has other sources of information and can spot gross lies and deceit much easier.

...looked at Facebook much?

johnx2 - Member
'Blairite Red Tory methodology'
anyone who doesn't support corbyn is a 'blairite'?

That's who introduced the Red Tories to the party, so it's only fair he gets the naming rights.

johnx2 - Member
'That dumb underclass now has other sources of information and can spot gross lies and deceit much easier.'
...looked at Facebook much?

Like the STW ads, what you see on FaceBook tends to reflect what your interests are. What point are you making?

I don't know why the angle is that Corbyn is unelectable.

Because whilst he naturally appeals to the relatively far left side of the labour party, he's left the central ground clear for other parties to move in. He's doing nothing to win back the previous labour voters that moved across to UKIP and he's failing put across his policies.

Where he has been successful is in engaging with the young and there is a concerted effort to put across his message through social media. Unfortunately that's a group that is notoriously bad at actually voting as seen by the turnout at something as significant a the referendum.

epicyclo - Member
I don't know why the angle is that Corbyn is unelectable.

By his own supporters admission he can't get the media to successfully represent his views

There you go, as per, a pretty disgusting attitude from the media. There is no such thing as un-biased media.

mrhoppy - Member
'I don't know why the angle is that Corbyn is unelectable.'
Because whilst he naturally appeals to the relatively far left side of the labour party, he's left the central ground clear for other parties to move in. He's doing nothing to win back the previous labour voters that moved across to UKIP and he's failing put across his policies...

Then why are so many people joining the party to support him? It seems to me he's winning the grassroots battle but doesn't have a hope with those believing the MSM.

The reason I think he will succeed is because I think the message will filter up from the grassroots as we have seen in Scotland with the SNP. It has faced a far more hostile media (almost 100%) and yet now enjoys unprecedented support plus a far larger voter participation rate.

That dumb underclass now has other sources of information and can spot gross lies and deceit much easier.

Have you just missed the past month or so?

How about everyone steps back and takes a deep breath. Then have a new clear headed look at a party where 80% of MPs say they have no faith in the leader. And then think about it....

Then why are so many people joining the party to support him? It seems to me he's winning the grassroots battle but doesn't have a hope with those believing the MSM.

But picking up a few thousand people (and at the same time potentially losing others) isn't going to win a general election.

How about everyone steps back and takes a deep breath. Then have a new clear headed look at a party where 80% of MPs say they have no faith in the leader. And then think about it..

You cannot be in a democratic party and represent it if you also think you can ignore the clear will of the membership

Is that what you were after?

epicyclo - Member
I think the message will filter up from the grassroots as we have seen in Scotland with the SNP.

😕 i don't think there is a more top down party in the UK! 😆

You cannot be in a democratic party and represent it if you also think you can ignore the clear will of the membership

So David Cameron shouldn't have legalised Gay Marriage?

teamhurtmore - Member
How about everyone steps back and takes a deep breath. Then have a new clear headed look at a party where 80% of MPs say they have no faith in the leader. And then think about it....

I have and I still come to the conclusion it's the right of the party(and a complicit media) are unwilling to give a platform to the left in anyway shape or form.

If Corbyn wins and there isn't a split, they'll have another leadership contest in a years time. nothing surer.

ninfan - Member
You cannot be in a democratic party and represent it if you also think you can ignore the clear will of the membership
So David Cameron shouldn't have legalised Gay Marriage?

If he wanted to keep his job, probably not. 😆

You cannot be in a democratic party and represent it if you also think you can ignore the clear will of the membership

You can challenge the leadership through the process set out in the guidelines which is what appears to be happening. The membership then gets to vote. If that is unsuccessful then fair enough, but in that instance I think you may end up with a permanent schism leading to either a whole new (potentially fairly well funded) centre left party, or MPs crossing the floor potentially to the lib Dems.

They were chosen to stand as Labour MPs and if they cannot represent the values of the party, as expressed by the membership, then they need to resign from the party and the house and see if the voters support them still

Anything else is just ignoring democracy.

You can challenge the leadership through the process set out in the guidelines

Its a ****ing mess and no mistake but this idea that the PLP are somehow squeaky clean or the ones Labour needs to listen to needs to be bashed on the head immediately.

It wont end well I agree and all that is happening is that battle lines are being drawn, RW trolls are frothing, and Binners is livid.

"I have and I still come to the conclusion it's the right of the party(and a complicit media) are unwilling to give a platform to the left in anyway shape or form."

Lending their nominations to give the hard Left a platform is exactly what moderate Labour MPs did!

Junkyard - lazarus

[b]"Its all very Taliban-esque".[/b]

FFS Binners that is like when Fox news claimed their were Muslim areas of the Uk where white folk could not go and the police never ventured

Its **** all like the Taliban. When someone turns up at your house and kills you , then burns the house to the ground then sells your kids into slavery....then we can talk about that

FFS man get a bloody grip

It was me that binners was accusing of behaving like the Taliban !

binners - Member

Like Ernie denouncing me as a posh boy (saying I went to 'a posh middle class school with a cabinet minister- it was a comprehensive in Warrington with Andy Burnham FFS!!!) , so he can dismiss my opinions too. Its all very Taliban-esque.

Just when I think binners rants can't possibly get more absurd I open the thread and find a little gem like that 🙂

And I've definitely hit a raw nerve by accusing him of being middle-class. I mean how can he be - he's a northerner!!

Binners is quick to dismiss anyone who supports Corbyn of being middle-class but because he sees it as an insult he really doesn't like it when he is accused of being middle-class himself.

[img] [/img]

"They don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring"

And binners there are plenty of comprehensive schools in posh middle-class areas - like the one you obviously went to. Not all posh kids can into grammar schools.

They were chosen to stand as Labour MPs and if they cannot represent the values of the party, as expressed by the membership, then they need to resign from the party and the house and see if the voters support them still

[i]This organisation shall be known as ‘The Labour Party’ (hereinafter referred to as ‘the party’). Its purpose is to organise and maintain in Parliament and in the country a political Labour Party.[/i]

I can't see how wanting to retain their seats conflicts with clause 1 paragraph 1 of the constitution?

I have and I still come to the conclusion it's the right of the party(and a complicit media) are unwilling to give a platform to the left in anyway shape or form.

Yes always a good trick to blame others. The simple and obvious answer that Corbyn just might be crap at leading the party is far too straightforward.

It's all a conspiracy against an honest, loyal and conviction politician and leader.

Ooh, we're getting the rule book out are we ?

Try :

Clause 4 - Aims and Values

[b]1 The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party.[/b]

You have to be a socialist to be in the Labour Party.

According to the rules.

You have to be a socialist to be in the Labour Party.

According to the rules.

Actually, you don't, see chapter 2

(Otherwise, surely you would have thrown Blair and Mandelson out) 😀

Socialist? To be fair they did nationalise most of the UK banks last time they were in power. Bet that's more than JC ever nationalises.

Did the media misrepresent

Him voting against the Labour Party 500 times
Dozens of senior figures from the Labour Party saying he would be a disaster as Leader
The vote on Syria going against his wishes with Benn delivering an outstanding speech
Momentum activist at centre of OULB investigation getting a top job in Corbyn's advisory team
Corbyn blogging and speaking extensively against the EU followed by
Corbyns shambolic half (third ?) hearted campaigning for Remain including the 7.5/10 remark
80% of Labour MPs voting "no confidence"
Baxter in tears after Momentum intimidation

To be honest he hasn't offered a single policy of note since he became leader as far as I can see. As for "new gentler politics" reality is quite the opposite. Very Stalin-esque

Membership ? The Labour Party have no real idea who the vast majority of these new "members" are, whether they really have the interests of the Labour Party at heart.

Thm, yip it clearly is a conspiracy! 😆 Has been from day 1. How you can argue against that ill never know.

Btw I view this from a fairly neutral perspective, I have no vested interest in the english labour party, just calling it as I see it.

Stalin-esque. 😆

Tooting Popular Front-esque?

Conspiracy? Comedy more like, yes from day 1

Except not having an effective opposition is not funny nor is the reemergence of the nasty underbelly. It was bad enough with all the xenophobia coming out of the closet.

I must admit I haven't heard of the English Labour Party? I assume that it does exist rather than that being a parochial Scottish view?

seosamh77 - Member
...Btw I view this from a fairly neutral perspective, I have no vested interest in the english labour party, just calling it as I see it.

My interest is because I regard a Corbyn Labour Party cleaned out of the Blairites as the only hope for a resurgence in the Party in Scotland.

I do not want to see that happen yet. After Scotland dissolves the Union then that's different.

Well the Scottish labour party are an utter freelance so...

The only purpose of an effective opposition is to get themselves elected. Youse are well overplaying their importance. When a government has a majority it can be no other way. It can only have an effect during inter party squabbles. Which to Tories re decent enough at avoiding.

@binners...just want to apologise for my last post (this morning) addressed to you... differences of opinion or not it shouldn't descend into rudeness.

Sorry Joe, still not clear about this English Labour Party.

Same as any of the unionist parties, they are subservient to the english dominance. Just a matter of fact. Not really a lot to get..

Well does it (the English Labour Party) actually exist Joe?

How about our friends in say Wales or NI - are they not relevant?

Good post EVB - poor old binns was copping quite a lot of flak.

cleaned out of

interesting choice of phrase 😯

teamhurtmore - Member
Well does it (the English Labour Party) actually exist Joe?

How about our friends in say Wales or NI - are they not relevant?

What point you trying to make here? spit it out.

Wales and NI can make up their own mind.

poor old binns was copping quite a lot of flak.

I cannot speak for the man but i dont think he was phased by it.
I will ask him next week if i can be arsed riding that slowly 😉

Jo - you said

Btw I view this from a fairly neutral perspective, I have no vested interest in the english labour party,

and my question was simple - is there such a thing as the english labour party? Why is that so hard to answer 😉 ?

Not a fan of Owen but his concluding para today was interesting

Unless these questions are answered, Labour is reduced to an ineffective pressure group. Socialism without power is slogans: a mild irritation at worst, a source of bemusement at best to a Conservative government that can do as it wishes. Principle and power are not mutually exclusive. Corbyn’s team and his opponents both have to demonstrate how.

should we hold our breath?

It's not. Yes, is the answer. Next question. 😉

Any links? 😉

I can only find a wider Labour Party. How do you join the English one?

(only joshin 'cos we all know its nothing about being anti-English - these slips juts happen by accident dont they!!)

Well I've spent the afternoon gently dabbing my eyes with my lacy hanky*. I'm big and daft enough to look after myself and not gather up my petticoats for a flounce.

I do find it quite amusing I was being accused of being a 'posh boy' going to a 'posh middle class rural school'. Rural? In Warrington? Seriously? 😆

I doubt that 'posh boy' accusation would withstand more than a couple of seconds of meeting me and observing how frightfully uncouth I am.

I would however pay good money to watch the keyboard warriors on this thread level the 'posh boy' accusation at some of the lads I went to my 'posh middle class rural school' with, while stood within punching distance. 😀

* this is not a euphemism

I do find it quite amusing I was being accused of being a 'posh boy' going to a 'posh middle class rural school'. Rural? In Warrington? Seriously?

Its an oft used tactic, binns. Make something up about someone/make up something they said etc so you can have an argue about something they are not/haven't said.

Its rather sad isn't it...

Glad you are back!! Keep posting - no clear outs here!!