Jeremy Corbyn

Stil no actual policies from Yvette though.

Just saw her on Newsnight, I was frankly shocked how bad she was..... "feminist infrastructure" ffs. She sounded more slippery than Blair. The scary thing is that she stands a very vague chance of being the next Labour leader. Has zero chance imo of being the next Labour prime minister though. She looked like a Spitting Image caricature of the stereotypical New Labour politician.

With the best will in the world they can't be that good as they thought they were going to win the last election.

Eh? It wasn't the Labour Party which predicted the election result. Besides, the prediction wasn't that Labour would win but that it would fall short of a majority.

Canvass returns where they exist could be quite useful I imagine.

Internally my understanding was that they were pretty confident of being able to form a government, indeed frosty, who if I recall correctly was involved in the campaign, expressed his excitement on here. Perhaps I read more confidence into that excitement that merited.

Well plenty of newspapers headlines predicted that Labour would be the largest party, I'm not sure that the Labour Party was responsible for that.

But I get your point. Let's not pay too much attention to those who claim that they can predict the next general election result.

That was your point, right ?

My point was in the second sentance, my first was just whimsy.

Well I agree with your point in the second sentence.

But let's remember why that is.

It's because Corbyn appears to be so popular, and he will probably win by such a huge margin, that a few thousand votes from a bunch of Tory voting Telegraph readers won't affect the result.

The irony is that the man hailed by the Daily Telegraph as a guaranteed loser is probably going to win by such a huge margin that he will render their gimmick completely pointless.

mefty - Member
Internally my understanding was that they were pretty confident of being able to form a government, indeed frosty, who if I recall correctly was involved in the campaign, expressed his excitement on here. Perhaps I read more confidence into that excitement that merited.

In my area our canvas for labour support for the local elections was spot on, the GE results got skewed by an EM and SNP effect that combined screwed us badly. In the local elections we got our best results in probably a decade or more.

Marx would fall into this category as he used capitalist profits to fund his daughters piano lessons while 'moaning' about capitalism and profits.

a bit like the sons of a Marxist who became millionaires via property inherited from dad via rather tax efficient retrospective alterations of the will

binners - Member

Yvette has waded in to say that Corbyn has no economic credibility

This is the woman married to Ed Balls

Satire is now officially dead

LOL

her media training was glaring out from the TV on Newsnight, as was the policy vacuum

The irony is that the man hailed by the Daily Telegraph as a guaranteed loser is probably going to win by such a huge margin that he will render their gimmick completely pointless.

It wasn't their gimmick it was Toby Young's, I don't think there was an editorial comment on the matter but I am happy to be proved wrong. The Telegraph has lots of columnists who have a wide range of views, one is even a Labour MP, so just because something is in the Telegraph, don't assume it is an editorial view. Even if the result is closer than currently expected, I think the number is de minimis.

EDIT: There is a lefty one, but she is not an MP.

It would be like Lazarus, they would rise from the dead, if Jeremy Corbyn was to become leader, rejuvenate them when they actually down and out"

Followed a few minutes later by

jambalaya - Member
The Liberal Democrats must be absolutely loving this, from a position of facing total obscurity they are right back in the game

It wasn't their gimmick it was Toby Young's, I don't think there was an editorial comment on the matter but I am happy to be proved wrong. The Telegraph has lots of columnists who have a wide range of views, one is even a Labour MP, so just because something is in the Telegraph, don't assume it is an editorial view.

Fair point. The Telegraph appear to be taking the threat that a Labour Party led by Corbyn poses a bit more seriously.

Even though the General Election is still almost 5 years away, and Corbyn can't possibly win it of course, the Telegraph has already got headlines warning us what victory by a Corbyn led Labour Party will mean :

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11802172/Jeremy-Corbyn-would-cost-British-families-2400-a-year.html ]Jeremy Corbyn would cost British families £2,400 a year[/url]

And panic appears to be spreading from the Telegraph to the Tory Party itself :

[i][b]"Senior Labour figures, most notably Tony Blair, have said that a victory for Mr Corbyn would keep the Tories in power for decades.

But some Tories say there is unease within the party about the prospect of facing an unknown quantity with radical views, citing the rise of the SNP in Scotland as proof that political parties can be successful from such a position.

Some believe Mr Corbyn could help them inflict a series of defeats on Number 10 which would be avoidable under his rivals.

David Cameron’s plans for Highspeed Rail Two, English votes for English laws and expanding bombing raids on Isil into Syria could all be in jeopardy under a Corbyn leadership"[/i][/b]

"Unease" + "some believe" = "panic"!!!

No really. Spin that story.....(or simply make it up)

Discomfort perhaps, because as seen in the Indy debate, mainstream parties struggle when facing complete BS (currency is an asset etc) - they are not programmed to deal with it. So it will be fun to see them readjust to Jurassic politics - they may struggle but I doubt they will panic.

While his policies might be from another era, Corbyn has been brilliant at using social media. That has been impressive and no wonder he has connected with a section of the youth vote. Powerful thing social media....

Ah,right; social media it must be then! Not grass roots Labour supporters wanting a return to a socialist party. I thought you would understand the enemy a bit better THM.

That too ducky for sure....separate point though

Corbyn has used social media very well. Understanding loud and clear. Thanks

But "enemy"?? Why make an enemy (sic) of somebody that causes such amusement, I think it's great. Go Jeremy Go...it's others who are getting sweaty

this is great , three puppets trying to desperatly find a way to 'inflict' a smear on the only socialist standing , their woodeness amplyfied when up against a human being....

Indeed, if anything, that's where the panic lies

Just read the Tom Baldwin piece in the FT - a more sensible bit of analysis from an ex-milli adviser

Well my interest in the leaders was sparked into life by the BBC this morning. I read the first page and then noticed 23 to go...my interest is not that interested yet!

I think I will get an opportunity to vote as I think I'm an affiliated supporter via my union. From 20 minutes research I get the impression that Corbyn is a bit extreme and Andy seems to have some good policies, particularly like that he wants public franchises to be able to bid to run lines. Nothing jumped at me from the other two.

So, in a nutshell, what is the STW consensus on the four?!

There is an ironic similarity between the Corbyn panto here and the Trump version in the U.S. The more bizarre the comments, the more popular they become. Both feed a virtuous circle with the media which becomes self reinforcing. Both reach out to those who have disliked recent politics and both appear to feel (outwardly) comfortable with who they and what they represent. Even if they are very different things.

As the FT notes in its Trump article, (their) popularity is an expression of reverse identity politics. And their opponents look on bemused and uncertain about how to deal with either. Amazing to watch....,

Are you still pretending you're not a Tory THM?

Pretending.... Moi?!?

No. But thanks for asking grum. Never felt the need to define myself by any political party. Never have done, never will do. Seems slightly bizarre concept to me.

Thank goodness for the STW Forum. I never realised that Karl Marx held shares in private companies to fund his daughter's education.

Given that either way, the Labour Party are essentially unelectable (majority votes are based on the English turnout for the UK parliament, with the inevitable result), I'd say that the complaint from the Labour right that Corbyn makes them unelectable is a complete red herring.

I think a Corbyn victory would return an already unelectable Labour Party to it's original values, which is the point surely?

Perhaps the Corbyn clique is thinking in the long term. Re-establish internal values first, then promote them for a possible election success two or three parliaments down the line. This would be a first for any of our political parties. The others would have to adopt a more strategic vision to compete, rather than the usual short-term four-year-turnaround tactical approach.

So - a Corbyn victory may well turn out to be just what our moribund, short termist and (literally) hysterical system needs...

Thm, you like the media, are trying way too hard to belittle corbyn. It's pretty clear youse all think he is a genuine threat against the current hegemony. We can all see right through ye.

Is THM a multiple personality who watches too much TV?

[quote=seosamh77 said]Thm, you like the media, are trying way too hard to belittle corbyn. It's pretty clear youse all think he is a genuine threat against the current hegemony. We can all see right through ye.

😆

I think a Corbyn victory would return an already unelectable Labour Party to it's original values, which is the point surely?

My thinking exactly. Putting aside the fact that I agree with a lot of his policies, there is absolutely no point in electing another Miliband after what happened at the recent election. After what I've seen of the leadership contest, I don't even think the other three are anywhere near as good as Miliband. I guess there's a reason he trounced Burnham last time.

Perhaps the Corbyn clique is thinking in the long term. Re-establish internal values first, then promote them for a possible election success two or three parliaments down the line.

This is probably about right, although there's the significant possibility of succeeding at the first opportunity given the tories slim majority and the potential for winning back lots of seats from the SNP.

I want to see Corbyn bring a bit of sanity and decorum to PMQ's I think he will be the perfect counterpoint to "call me daves" sneering pomposity.

Given the danger of the reinforcement value of "Vote for Jeremy because he's a nice guy" of that possibility, it will be interesting to see if the Conservatives adapt, or just try more of the same.

Althbough the real power (as ever) inside the ruling party is next door to Number 10, Cameron is already seen as intellectually weak given his "make it up as I go along and drop it when I get another great idea" approach. He will need to adjust his PMQ's tactics to avoid looking desperate.

I'd like JC to win, I think we could do with one leader who isn't from the same factory as all the rest. Will be a refreshing change...

Cameron is already seen as intellectually weak

What do you mean already? No one ever thought he was intellectually strong!

Been reading the news this morning looking for any shred of a clue of what Cooper stands for. All I found was this.

[i]"“I think the most radical thing we could do at all would be to put family at the centre of our economy, the centre of our society. To have a really feminist approach to the way the economy works.”[/i]

So basically, 'think of the children' and I'm 'I'm a woman'. I suppose at least she's leading by example on the role-reversal front, with Ed at home looking after the kids. Not sure that was quite the plan though. 🙂

Its just getting silly now. From the front page of todays Guardian

[i]Liz Kendall, said in the Birmingham Mail that a perception Corbyn was sympathetic to the IRA would make it harder to maintain peace in Northern Ireland. [/i]

Sorry Liz, but with nonsense like that, you're just embarrassing yourself.

Still not heard a single policy proposal out of the other 3

So let's assume Corbyn wins the leadership. Would he be playing a masterstroke by expelling Tony Blair and the other right wing MPs who have threatened to depose him within the first year? I think so.

Far from a Corbyn victory being a good thing for the lib dems, personally I think it will condemn them even more, look at how many libdem voters deserted them at the last election. A properly socialist Labour party would be a natural fit.
I hope he does win as anything is better than the bland, smug arseholes we have there now.
And sure Bliar has been paid by the Corbyn campaign considering how much he has helped them

Belittle him? I think it's great.

Yes some of his policies are barking mad, some are ok but merely a rehash of existing ones (Peoples QE) and some are pretty sensible. True for most politicians. Much better to take each on its merits rather than have to cow-tow to party lines - after all, isn't that part of his appeal as a regular dissenter against the whip?

The amusing thing is how to quote Taleb, folk are being fooled by randomness or more simply by reading too much into things. Corbyn himself did not expect this success and has commented on how it has surprised him. He and his team have been very smart to ride the hype and as noted has used social media very well. The repositioning of Brand Corbyn has been pretty impressive.

Is he a threat? To the other three of course. To the Tories - I doubt it, but time will tell. Does he have the solutions to the real issues facing (my) business - no. Does it matter, no. He's a politician. They react, business leads. But for a wider debate, no harm in that. But as always you need to look behind what they say and look at what they do.

Still not heard a single policy proposal out of the other 3

That's because they're busy defining their narratives about making capitalism fair, living within our means and speaking to people's aspirations (or should that be fears and prejudices?).

You'd think by now they'd have got it. Burnham is showing signs of understanding that the ground beneath them has shifted, but now he looks like an opportunistic bandwagon jumper. It's tragic really, as some of the stuff he's now saying is probably the stuff he's wanted to say for a long time, rather than all that anti-foreigner rubbish he thought he had to say after the election. And is it just me, or does he look like he's about to burst into tears every time he appears on the telly?

teamhurtmore - Member
Does he have the solutions to the real issues facing (my) business - no.

As I said earlier, vested interests! 😆 this much is obvious!

Of course Joe. Where's the surprise? We often forget that these people are OUR [b]representatives. [/b]They are not our leaders however much they grandstand.

... to quote Clint: It's important to remember the politicians work for us. They are OUR employees.

Anyway:

Burnham is showing signs of understanding that the ground beneath them has shifted, but now he looks like an opportunistic bandwagon jumper.

"Now"?

teamhurtmore - Member
Of course Joe. Where's the surprise? We often forget that these people are OUR representatives. They are not our leaders however much they grandstand.

teamhurtmore - Member
...Yes some of his policies are barking mad, some are ok but merely a rehash of existing ones (Peoples QE) and some are pretty sensible...

I think part of his appeal is that he is seen as an honest person who will actually support the policies he is espousing, as opposed to the usual smarmy PR liars. (That he is honest I know not, but voting against the party 400 times suggests he actually has principles)

His rise is not looking good for Scotland though. A resurgent Labour could stymie our independence.

Corbyn is a bit extreme

When did "being nice to people and generally a bit caring" become "extreme"?

I don't think the SNP have anything to fear from a Corbyn victory. Labour is a broken brand whoever it elects as leader. Rather than wait god knows how many years for the Tories to be deposed the Scots will realise the only way of breaking the Westminster grip on their throats is independence.

epicyclo - Member
His rise is not looking good for Scotland though. A resurgent Labour could stymie our independence.

Tbh for me, Corbyn is pretty much a continuation of what I seen that was good about the Scottish Independence debate. He's just trying to bring those arguments to a larger platform. Under those circumstances, more power to him. Personally, i'm putting independence on hold till I see how all this develops.

If he fails and we end up with an even more right wing labour party(as lets face it that's the battle here) or no real alternative. It's back on full steam ahead with independence.

ohnohesback - Member
I don't think the SNP have anything to fear from a Corbyn victory. Labour is a broken brand whoever it elects as leader. Rather than wait god knows how many years for the Tories to be deposed the Scots will realise the only way of breaking the Westminster grip on their throats is independence.

If you are purely a nationalist, I think there's a lot to fear about Corbyn.

I think part of his appeal is that he is seen as an honest person who will actually support the policies he is espousing, as opposed to the usual smarmy PR liars

When did "being nice to people and generally a bit caring" become "extreme"?

Extreme = Not agreeing with us

Going off on a bit of a conspiracist, Adam Curtis tangent, the trouble is that the neo-liberal orthodoxy of the last 30 years has produced a mindset in the general population that the only worthwhile pursuit and purpose in life is to acquire money with which to consume loads of stuff that we don't need. Anyone who isn't into that is seen as a bit of an oddball and hence extreme. I always think it ironic that one of the biggest western criticisms of the old communist nations was the lack of variety and drab uniformity of life (all cars are skodas/trabants etc), where really western society is just as bad, if not worse.

[img] [/img]

The joy of uniformity.
[img] [/img]

dazh - Member

And is it just me, or does he look like he's about to burst into tears every time he appears on the telly?

As you say, he sold his soul to try and get somewhere, and now he's on the verge of it he's discovered that what he needs and what would have got him there, is the principles and beliefs he abandoned along the way. Almost feel sorry for him tbh, that's a bloody bitter pill. And he's got no safety nets either, let's imagine people are right and corbyn does lead the party off a cliff, he's left being the man that lost twice, to the worst labour leaders in living memory.

The others have it easy, their belief-free existence means they can just flip whatever bios setting it is in their heads that says "today you think <this>" and be completely convinced that they lost because of entryism, or chemtrails, and never have to admit their own total failure. They seem to have learned this lesson from Jim Murphy- it doesn't matter if living in your own alternative universe stops you from winning in the real world- because you're the king of the world in yours.

t the neo-liberal orthodoxy of the last 30 years has produced a mindset in the general population that the only worthwhile pursuit and purpose in life is to acquire money with which to consume loads of stuff that we don't need.

The master stroke has been to convince people of this while simultaneously ensuring that people don't actually get any more money, and that the results of their efforts to get more stuff actually get siphoned off into the top pockets.

As I see it, if he is elected Labour leader, at least there's some chance of an effective opposition. I might not particularly agree with many of the things he proposes but at least I feel that he'll hold the Tories to account rather than just try to look more and more like them but as a weak, ineffective facsimile.

For a democracy to function in any way effectively there needs to be effective opposition. We don't currently have that.

Of course, the media will ideally need to be managed to avoid many of the lies that are out their being peddled and new ones created and that's where the risk lies. It's (relatively) easy to have principles and be idealistic while outside of the process. History says that getting on board with Westminster tends to make people compromise those ideals more than they expect in order to achieve at least some of their goals. It'd be interesting to see a politician who won't compromise because I think they get crucified by the press for the slightest perceived infraction.

teamhurtmore - Member

There is an ironic similarity between the Corbyn panto here and the Trump version in the U.S.

Well that shows how little you understand the situation THM.

There is no similarity between Corbyn's popularity which is based on his straight talking and Trump's popularity which is based on highly offensive outbursts which are designed to be provocative.

The similarity if you want to find one is between Corbyn and Bernie Sanders.

Sanders like Corbyn has shocked the US establishment by proving to be far more popular than he is supposed to be. Sanders like Corbyn is a honest humble unassuming man who says precisely what he thinks, there is no spin. Sanders like Corbyn isn't frighten to call himself a socialist whatever the reaction of the US media might be. Sanders like Corbyn couldn't be more different to Donald Trump.

You have heard of Bernie Sanders haven't you THM? In case you haven't :

[url= http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/us_politics/2015/08/poll_bernie_sanders_surges_ahead_of_hillary_clinton_in_nh_44_37 ]Poll: Bernie Sanders surges ahead of Hillary Clinton[/url]

.

BTW Woppit well done for making the comparison between Jeremy Corbyn and Kim Jong-un, it's been several days since a Tory knuckle-dragger has done it on this thread.

Yvette Cooper is being interviewed on Five Live.

She's actually repeating, word for word, the exact same soundbites that lost them the last election

Change the ****ing record Yvette. It didn't work. It won't this time either.

EDIT: actually... its Liz Kendall. I didn't hear her being introduced. I think that says it all. They're indistinguishable from each other. Andy's the one with the eyebrows, right?

Almost feel sorry for him tbh, that's a bloody bitter pill.

I do feel sorry for him. Beyond the spin, the soundbites, indecision, and lack of confidence I reckon there's a decent, and competent, bloke trying to get out. His one saving grace is his refusal to join in with the hysterical character assassinations of Corbyn that the others are quite happy to engage in, and his recognition that if the party chooses Corbyn then they should rally behind him rather than throwing their dummies out the pram. At the end off this he'll be able to hold his head up high unlike the rest of them.

Pretending.... Moi?!?

No. But thanks for asking grum. Never felt the need to define myself by any political party. Never have done, never will do. Seems slightly bizarre concept to me.

It's a shame that you can't recognise it because everyone else can. Maybe you're not quite as clever as you think you are.

<placeholder for next ad-hom on THM>

i actually think there is a similarity between Corbyn and the Trump campaign. We might see him as a deranged moron trying to be as offensive as possible, but in certain sections of the Republican right, that IS someone straight talking. Shooting from the hip. Saying the stuff that everyone thinks but is too afraid to say out loud. It's anti-politics, anti-politician, anti-media trained drone.

Politically yes, Corbyn is much closer to Sanders. But i think there's definitely a comparison with Trump too. Just as there is with Nigel Farage.

jebus...

Corbyn isn't even vaguely anti-politics.

And there isn't any comparison between Corbyn and Nigel Farage.

Despite having been in the limelight for just a few weeks there is widespread recognition of Corbyn's policies, Trident, tuition fees, railways, austerity, etc.

In contrast despite having been in the limelight for literally years most people haven't got a clue what Nigel Farage policies are beyond leaving the EU.

Mr Woppit - Member

The joy of uniformity.

Corbyn isn't even vaguely anti-politics.

no but he has appeal to those who are fed up with the current crop of politicians. The people who say they're not interested because all politicians are basically the same. Corbyn is a clear alternative to that, and that is part of his appeal

Corbyn isn't brilliant on the Scottish question, really - sure, he's anti-Trident, but he also thinks that benefits and welfare are devolved and it's up to the SNP to counter the Tories' welfare cuts.

They're not devolved, they're reserved to Westminster. It's a continuation of the "SNP Bad" strategy that's worked so badly for Scottish Labour.

I now see the Labour leadership campaign - in fact wider Westminster politics in general - the same way I see the US elections. Very important for us, but also happening somewhere else.

Labour senior leaders wear bow ties as well. What inference are we supposed to draw from the photo above?

[img] [/img]

as much as i agree with corbyns stance on several issues

I think his appeal is that he is anti establishment

but as the last election shows ultimately turkeys end up voting for xmas and we just get more of the same

farige and the kippers, while claiming plenty of votes, didnt change anything, despite having the same antiestablishment aura

<placeholder for next ad-hom on THM>

THM invites 'ad-homs' with his pompous condescending tone despite posts that make little sense and his refusal to accept the strange coincidence that the vast majority of his prolific bile/scorn is reserved for the SNP, Labour, the Lib Dems and the Green Party.

But he's definitely not a Tory supporter, oh no, perish the thought!

And by the way:

[b]When used inappropriately[/b], it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized.[2]

[b]Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact or when used in certain kinds of moral and practical reasoning.[/b][3]

I'd vote for Liz because she is almost attractive

Burnham speaks...

"Jeremy’s plans lack credibility. It’s not possible to promise free university education, re-nationalising the utilities, without that coming at a great cost and if you can’t explain how that is going to be paid for then I don’t think we’ll win back the trust of voters on the economy.

So there is a real choice here. There are two big visions for Labour going forward. Mine has credibility at its heart, and I believe that is essential if Labour is to win the next general election. As ballot papers land, that is the decision that members of the party have to make."

Am I missing something here as I haven't seen or heard his 'big vision'? Unless 'credible economic policies', whatever they are, amount to it. Interesting how we can't afford free university education when we could find the money in the past, and Scotland can still afford it now.

but as the last election shows ultimately turkeys end up voting for xmas and we just get more of the same

Well, I would say that turkeys vote for Xmas when they've been persuaded that they're not actually turkeys. That again is where an effective opposition is necessary to challenge and inform.

farige and the kippers, while claiming plenty of votes, didnt change anything, despite having the same antiestablishment aura

I don't know about that - both Labour and the Tories have seemingly shifted their position much more towards UKIP in a few key areas.

dazh - Member
Am I missing something here as I haven't seen or heard his 'big vision'? Unless 'credible economic policies', whatever they are, amount to it. Interesting how we can't afford free university education when we could find the money in the past, and Scotland can still afford it now.

The posse in full flow is a joy to watch. Not trhe full team yet.....

Careful Doris, they will be in to you next but good that you understand the difference between a noun and an adjective. Lost on the clever ones, that!!!

ATP 😉 all funny to watch and a nice occasional distraction from doing a 2016 budget!!

Labour senior leaders wear bow ties as well. What inference are we supposed to draw from the photo above?

the SNP have bigger problems than Corbyn. after a landslide victory, the tide always turns to sweep away the marginal winners and no-hopers. (mixed metaphor). they need to focus on delivery in government and internal discipline. a donkey with a red rosette could win seats for labour from the SNP at the next election.

So basically, 'think of the children' and I'm 'I'm a woman'. I suppose at least she's leading by example on the role-reversal front, with Ed at home looking after the kids. Not sure that was quite the plan though.

they need to focus on delivery in government and internal discipline

After 8 years in government in Scotland, the SNP are more popular than ever - so peoiple seem to like what they're delivering.

a donkey with a red rosette could win seats for labour from the SNP at the next election.

Latest Holyrood poll:

[img] [/img]

A donkey with a red rosette might do better, couldn't do much worse. Oh, and the SNP keep winning by-elections - that's not what happens when a party is losing support.

I'll tell you what was an obnoxious piece of lazy sexism konnabunny, Yvette Cooper last night on Newsnight claiming that all the talk on transport, cars and trains, was about “toys for the Boys”, and that she wanted a feminist infrastructure. Truly cringeworthy it was.

BTW Woppit well done for making the comparison between Jeremy Corbyn and Kim Jong-un, it's been several days since a Tory knuckle-dragger has done it on this thread.

By the way earnest, that's not what I did.

Do pay attention.

The Labour leadership race is currently looking like this...

[img] ?oh=96a2fc8c4d5799c8a1c885842b45be08&oe=5676D932[/img]

Why epicyclo? Are you claiming that the choices are false and that all the candidates are ultimately the same ?

A donkey with a red rosette might do better, couldn't do much worse. Oh, and the SNP keep winning by-elections - that's not what happens when a party is losing support.

Hey Ernie

Woppit 😀