apparently (bbcnews) its a well used air corridor and lots of planes use it all the time ernie
the ukranians warned eurocontrol that the rebels had been targeting their planes and the safe limit was raised to 31000ft, the plane was flying at 33000
Wall Street journal has reported the us have proof of ground to air missile firing.
the safe limit was raised to 31000ft
Strange if they knew that targets could be hit above that range.
does seem a huge error with hindsight, the BUKs have over twice that range apparently
ernie_lynch - Memberthe safe limit was raised to 31000ft
Strange if they knew that targets could be hit above that range.
Yes, they can. Easily.
Actually far beyond 31,000 ft depending on the missile they used i.e. 9K37 can reach 82,000 ft at mach 4 speed. Even their 1966 missile can reach 36,000 ft at mach 2 speed.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system ]According to Wiki.[/url]
I bet they are preparing for the impending Western fighter jets/spy planes/drones etc ...
Russia's pals shoot down passenger plane, giving America's pals opportunity to attack Palestinians. It's a ****ed up world 🙁
Incomplete list of nationals aboard
154 Dutch
27 Australians
23 Malaysians
11 Indonesians
Six UK nationals
Four Germans
Four Belgians
Three Philipinos
One Canadian
RIP
according to analysts on newsnight..
standard airline practice to overfly warzones at 35000 ft
and that a BUK would have to be supplied by Russia and require training to use
Dear Leader Putih.
Not cool man! Not cool!
Your rouge BUK zombie commander(s) just wiped your cool dude face on the floor.
Get him/them now! 😡
a BUK would have to be supplied by Russia and require training to use
Seemingly been in service for some years with Ukranian armed forces, and being upgraded after reliability problems
http://news.kievukraine.info/2008/10/ukraine-air-defense-missiles-fail-in.html
And it seems theres some history:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/12/russia.israel
Dear Leader Putih,
You need to get rid of all your thick maggot brain rouge zombies.
This bunch of stoopid zombies really needs to be culled immediately.
You can send them to M'sia or Indonesia for culling if you wish or you can forget selling more SUKOIs to that region.
and that a BUK would have to be supplied by Russia and require training to use
Stolen from a Ukrainian anti-air base. The rebels admitted it a few days ago and it's been photographed in Donetsk. Operators likely not trained very well.
the safe limit was raised to 31000ftStrange if they knew that targets could be hit above that range.
That's what I don't get, one of their transports was shot down well out of MANPAD range a few days back. They knew there was something else going on, why set the safe altitude at 31000 feet when SAM's that have that kind of reach usually extend well beyond that altitude.
Most likely a story of complete incompetence. Going to ignore the news now for a bit and read happier news on reddit.
I was on a malaysia airlines plane that took the same flight path only 2 weeks ago. This one:
http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh3/#37b8a60
Really hits home when it could have been you that was on the plane.
/p>
Supposedly an intercepted rebel phone call. One of the rebel commanders ends the conversation saying that the airliner must have been carry spies, stupid ****.
Nobody is flying through that zone now apart from Ukrainian own flights.
[url= http://www.flightradar24.com ]Flight Radar .com[/url]
The Americans seem to be implying pretty strongly this was an act of the Russian seperatists of whom I doubt very much could shoot down a plane without very close support of Russian military.
Putin is bonkers IMO.
There might be very good reasons for pinning the blame on the separatists, rather than directly on the Russian military, not least that it allows the Russians a bit of space to manoeuvre, rather than backing them into a corner and makes providing support for the separatists unacceptable internationally.
Putin is bonkers IMO.
It's very unlikely that Putin was involved in the targeting and bringing down of a commercial airline, he was probably busy dealing with other stuff. It's also unlikely that whoever is responsible did it deliberately. The most likely explanation is that it was misidentified and that it was a "mistake". Mental health issues probably didn't come into it.
I think he means in the colloquial sense ernie and I think many would agree that Putin has a unique perspective in reality not shared by the rest of the world.
Interesting to hear Russia saying it was ukraines fault as it happened over their air space ....somewhat ignoring the fact Ukraine do not control that area and it was most likely committed by Russians armed and supplied by Russians
Going to be a some repercussions here for sure.
"They shouldn't be flying in a war zone" which is true.
TBH if a transport plane was shot down earlier in the day at the same height. Someone on both sides needs to takepart of the blame.
Why was international airspace allowed over that part? Well its hindsight now but someone on the Ukranian Government side should have immediately flagged up to international air control?!
Really hits home when it could have been you that was on the plane.
@hex, yes that must feel very strange
It's very unlikely that Putin was involved in the targeting and bringing down of a commercial airline
@ernie, It's very likely that Putin was involved in decision to arm the pro-Russian rebels including any decision to give them missiles.
The West has to take much more action than economic sanctions on Russia.
On routing - for a long time I recall the flights I took to Asia where diverted around Iraq. I am somewhat surprised to day the least that after the shooting down of the military transporter with a missile by the pro-Russian rebels that flights where not diverted.
Transport plane was not shot down on the same day Hora. But a few days before at an altitude of 21000 feet I think.
Russians armed and supplied by Russians
It appears to be documented record that two weeks ago the rebels seized a Ukrainian air defence barracks, near Donesk , where they claimed at the time to have seized a BUK Sam system.
System is in common use with militaries in the region, who mostly have national service/conscription, so its an inevitability that there are people around who know how to use it.
Finally, the 'intercept' tape aparrently refers to kazaks, and there is a large ethnic Ukrainian but russian sympathetic population in Kazakhstan.
The West has to take much more action than economic sanctions on Russia.
Economic measures will work, if they can now get the Chinese to worry about air traffic to and from them, they may also help strangle the Russians.
Stolen from a Ukrainian anti-air base. The rebels admitted it a few days ago and it's been photographed in Donetsk. Operators likely not trained very well.
A Ukrainian on the today program said all Ukrainian ground to air missiles were accounted for and it must have been supplied by the Russians.
Also very concerning that the flight recorder is apparently being transported by rebels and on it's way to Moscow. Seems that a fully independent investigation in to this is highly unlikely.
I think he means in the colloquial sense ernie and I think many would agree that Putin has a unique perspective in reality not shared by the rest of the world
Both senses, poor impulse control, not good in a world leader.
Interesting to hear Russia saying it was ukraines fault as it happened over their air space ....somewhat ignoring the fact Ukraine do not control that area and it was most likely committed by Russians armed and supplied by Russians
He is not even denying it, just saying its a consequence of what others have done.
It's very unlikely that Putin was involved in the targeting and bringing down of a commercial airline, he was probably busy dealing with other stuff.
The buck stops with the boss..
As already said, some slightly implausible but potentially possibly explanation will develop that allows us all to save face but Putin will have sent a message and 300 people are dead.
Also very concerning that the flight recorder is apparently being transported by rebels and on it's way to Moscow. Seems that a fully independent investigation in to this is highly unlikely.
Apparently the second flight recorder has been recovered by the rescue team – so no doubt the[i] 'records' [/i]from each recorder will vary wildly, giving each side more time to continue blaming each other for bringing it down until the whole story blows over...
I think in this case the flight recorder isn't so relevant. The US (for sure) and probably European military will have detailed spy satellite footage of the area. The fact the rebels posted on Twitter about shooting down a transport plane is pretty damning.
In this case, would the flight recorders add much to any investigation?
Won't they jsut confirm that the plane came apart in mid air?
I think he means in the colloquial sense ernie ......
The suggestion appeared to be that the downing of a civilian airline was a deliberate act authorized by a mentally unstable leader.
It is extremely unlikely that the shooting down of the airline was a deliberate act, whoever did it, and there is no evidence that Putin is "bonkers".
The whole process in which large parts of Eastern Ukraine broke away from the control of Kiev was a remarkably bloodless one. That changed when Kiev decided to retake the areas by force. It is reasonable to assume that there will be considerable more bloodshed.
The obvious way forward if further bloodshed and tragic events like this are to be avoided is to work for a negotiated solution in which the right of self-determination of all those concerned is fully recognized.
This is much more of a case than 'Putin is bonkers'.
The obvious way forward if further bloodshed and tragic events like this are to be avoided, is to work for a negotiated solution in which the right of self-determination of all those concerned is fully recognized.
You can't have large swathes of a country just deciding they want to break away. History is littered with civil wars as a result of these sorts of disputes. Russia signed an agreement that it would not interfere in the Ukraine, it reneged on this agreement after it's "chosen" leader was ousted.
I think in this case the flight recorder isn't so relevant.
That's true, the concern is more that something like a flight recorder can be taken away from an investigation site and sent on it's way to Moscow before anyone else even knows about it.
In this case, would the flight recorders add much to any investigation?
I guess it depends on whether they record radar activity too - so any incoming missile trajectory could be evaluated and used as evidence.
I have no idea what *is* recorded though.
You can't have large swathes of a country just deciding they want to break away.
I thought you could ?
You can't have large swathes of a country just deciding they want to break away.
why not ? worked really well for the Czechs and Slovaks.
The obvious way forward if further bloodshed and tragic events like this are to be avoided is to work for a negotiated solution in which the right of self-determination of all those concerned is fully recognized.
Yep, that's worked really well with the Russians in the recent past.
The Ukrainians do seem to bear a lot of blame, giving a platform to Nazis, making stupid announcements about Russian language, etc. but that doesn't mean it's OK for every **** with an AK47 to go round making up the rules as they go along, declaring independence, shooting down airliners and who knows what else.
why not ? worked really well for the Czechs and Slovaks.
But not so much for the rest of the former Yugoslavia
Yep, that's worked really well with the Russians in the recent past.
You mean like when Ukraine secured its independence from Russia ?
Putin is bonkers IMO.It's very unlikely that Putin was involved in the targeting and bringing down of a commercial airline, he was probably busy dealing with other stuff. It's also unlikely that whoever is responsible did it deliberately. The most likely explanation is that it was misidentified and that it was a "mistake". Mental health issues probably didn't come into it.
While all that is fair enough, he is completely bonkers though, isn't he? He's absolutely hat-stand! All that GGGGGGRRRRR look-at-my-abs, I'm off to wrestle a shark, then shoot a bear, who wants an arm-wrestle business. Which would all probably be ok, if he just took a deep breath, admitted he's as gay as Freddie Mercury, and just put some pumping Euro-disco on, and snorted some poppers.
And the unfortunate 'mistake' could probably be avoided by the simple act of not supplying massively advanced technical weapons systems to nutters, who you have little control over. As the Americans found out in Afghanistan.
why not ? worked really well for the Czechs and Slovaks.
Lets not forget Kosovo!
And the unfortunate 'mistake' could probably be avoided by the simple act of not supplying massively advanced technical weapons systems to nutters, who you have little control over.
I think the Jury is very much out on where they got the weapons, but as mentioned, the evidence seems to point to them having seizied them off the Ukrainians
As the Americans found out in Afghanistan.
Or your own highly trained armed forces, as the Americans found out (at the cost of an Iranian civilian airliner) in the persian Gulf.
[quote=johndoh ]I guess it depends on whether they record radar activity too - so any incoming missile trajectory could be evaluated and used as evidence.
I have no idea what *is* recorded though.
Would be kind of hard to record radar when civilian airliners don't have any. It would be useful to have the flight recorder, but given everybody agrees it was shot down by a missile it's unlikely to add anything very much - just information on exactly how it crashed after hit by the missile (or not necessarily even that - there's a good chance it's a normal recording and then suddenly stops when the missile takes out the power to the flight recorder - nobody will have known anything was wrong until the missile hit).
That changed when Kiev decided to retake the areas by force. It is reasonable to assume that there will be considerable more bloodshed
I am not sure what on earth you are referrign to here
Most observers consider russia [ and russian nationals who live in the Ukraine] to have taken areas by force via an armed insurgency [ this is what happened after they "annexed the crimea of course]and international law [ as with palestine] would allow them to "retake", as you seem to wish to call it, their own country from a alargely foreign force.
I doubt if Israel[ russia] had a vote on occupied land or took it by force you would be asking that palesitine[ ukraine] respects this and does not try to "retake" the land that is theirs but instead it looks for another solution instead.
Saying Putin is bonkers is not helpful but I am your analysis of the conflict is at odds with the facts.
FWIW I agree peace will only come from negotiation but very few countries would negotiate with foreign insurgents who stole parts of their country.
not supplying massively advanced technical weapons systems to nutters
Why are those who live in Eastern Ukraine and don't want to be under the control of Kiev "nutters" ?
the 'intercept' tape aparrently refers to kazaks, and there is a large ethnic Ukrainian but russian sympathetic population in Kazakhstan.
The audio refers to Cossacks (??????), not Kazakhs (??????). You're misunderstanding and then making stuff up.
Why are those who live in Eastern Ukraine and don't want to be under the control of Kiev "nutters" ?
Come on Ernie. They're all permanently pissed on vodka brewed in old shoes. Everyone gets a bit lairy when they've been drinking meths for a week
Are we having a sweep on when [s]Russia[/s] pro-russian militias start a massive military onslaught to distract attention from this unfortunate shooting down an airliner business then? I'm going for 2 o clock this afternoon
Most observers consider russia [ and russian nationals who live in the Ukraine]...negotiate with foreign insurgents who stole parts of their country.
You've found yourself painted into a weird corner where on one hand you think that Crimea is part of Ukraine but on the other hand the insurgents are just "Russian nationals who live in the [sic] Ukraine" and "foreign insurgents".
Just had confirmation my good friend that neither he nor any of his friends an family where aboard. He said he had a friend who overflew Ukraine two days ago and his cousin and family where booked on the same MH flight AMS to KL today. Very strange feeling to be so glad it's not someone you know but a the same time there are 295 casualties
[quote=Junkyard ]Saying Putin is bonkers is not helpful
Just stating facts 😉
Come on Ernie. They're all permanently pissed on vodka brewed in old shoes
I see.
Are we having a sweep on when [s]Russia[/s] pro-russian militias ..
I don't know why but there appears to be the belief held by some that no one in Ukraine is pro-Russian, and that anyone who is must actually be Russian.
The last time a unified Ukraine had a presidential election, one which was recognised as free and fair, the Ukraine people elected a pro-Russian.
Perhaps some people should delve into the history of Ukraine with maybe some focus in different experiences between east and west. Perhaps even why it's called Ukraine.
and other media are going on about the exact numbers of american and english and dutch people who where on the plane, sadly nothing about the malaysians who have died.Totally pathetic coverage so far.
A news agency presents its news in the way thats most relevant to its audience - a european news channel will focus on the information most relevant to a european audience because there will be people in that audience who need to know how that story effects them directly - a malaysian agency will focus on the aspects most relevant to a malaysian audience. The reason they'll mention the number of UK citizens involved in an international incident is because there are two stories - one of the event itself and one that the viewer might have a personal involvement in.
The discussion of numbers of UK /european /US passengers on our news channels is because there were people like me who were were waiting to find out whether relatives had died on that flight. Five minutes ago I found out he didn't, but he was on the same route one, same airline, same airspace but just one flight ahead. However his friends and colleagues that he was travelling to meet [i]were[/i] on the downed plane. But we knew to take note of the story because the news coverage described the nationality, professions, and destination event of the passengers involved, if it hadn't we wouldn't have known that this story was relevant to us.
You mean like when Ukraine secured its independence from Russia ?
Ok, i'll bite.
Ukraine securing independance from Russia is like India securing Independance from Britain.
Donetsk securing independance from Ukraine is like the London Borough of Southall tring to break away from Britain.
This isn't the 1930s any more Ernie. You don't have to proove your socialist credentials by supporting the Soviet regime at any price.
If the UK governmented want to re-establish the empire and had Putin's territorial ambitions you would be amongst the first to express your disgust.
Stop acting smug and presenting half truths and twisted facts to justify your Putin fanboism. Its getting boring.
you think that Crimea is part of Ukraine
The Autonomous Republic of Crimea (Ukrainian: ????????? ?????????? ????, Avtonomna Respublika Krym; Russian: ?????????? ?????????? ????, Avtonomnaya Respublika Krym; Crimean Tatar: Q?r?m Muhtar Cumhuriyeti)[2] is internationally viewed as an autonomous republic of Ukraine, located in the Crimean Peninsula. It is currently subject to a territorial dispute between Ukraine and the Russian Federation, which administers the territory as one of its federal districts. Population: 1,965,177 (2013 population estimate)[3].
"Russian nationals who live in the [sic] Ukraine" and "foreign insurgents".
Its possible to live somewhere and still be a foreign national as these are not mutually exclusive. I think all but the most pedantic would agree that Russian forces or people loyal to russia are the ones doing this so o think the description [ though garbled] is reasonable].
I don't know why but there appears to be the belief held by some that no one in Ukraine is pro-Russian, and that anyone who is must actually be Russian.
I'm not questioning that Ernie. Thats no doubt true. I was commenting on the ridiculous charade that the 'militias' aren't largely made up of Russian troops, and tooled up to the teeth with Russian hardware?
I mean... come on... seriously? ... is there anyone who actually believes it? Especially this morning? Whoever could these mysterious gentleman be? Whose uniforms bare the slightly faded signs of recently removed russian insignia. It truly is mystifying
When the big hitters get involved these threads taken on the look of written masturbation.
I'm standing by Putin is bonkers and if this plane had been full of Americans Moscow would now be a big whole in the ground.
Stop acting smug and presenting half truths and twisted facts to justify your Putin fanboism. Its getting boring.
It's stuff like that that reduces what could be a reasonable debate into a pointless point scoring game. Shame.
I think all but the most pedantic would agree that Russian forces or people loyal to russia are the ones doing this so o think the description [ though garbled] is reasonable].
I just think it's interesting you that you are trying to paint them as Russian nationals that just so happen to live in Ukraine and "foreign insurgents", but not really people that have a right to live there.
Good luck konabunny.
I was commenting on the ridiculous charade that the 'militias' aren't largely made up of Russian troops
They aren't, though. They're mostly just a bunch of yokels and halfwits.
Putin isn't trying to fight a ground war in Ukraine: Russia has had ongoing wars for 25 years. They have an extremely battle-hardened military that spent the last decade pouring oil money into weapons and making conscripts peripheral. Ukraine is trying to rustle up a national guard to prop up a rickety military. If Russia actually wanted to battle the Ukrainian army, it would crush them in a matter of hours - and then provoke an international response.
It's much better for Putin to deniably make trouble for the Kyiv regime by supplying a bunch of local gangsters and allowing a few inept numpties to run amok in Eastern Ukraine for a whole: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/15/separatist-fighter-russia-eastern-ukraine-interview . It's cheap, too!
There are a few professionals on the ground, but when it suits Putin he can just pull the plug. The pros will slip home and the locals will get killed, convicted or do a runner.
Sky news contact one of the friends of someone who died via twitter;
Friend posts: [i]
I lost a great friend, a wonderful professional comrade & the world lost a fantastic man 🙁 RIP Glenn Thomas[/i]
10 minutes later: [i]
I am sorry to hear about the death of your friend. Would you feel up to speaking to Sky News about him?[/i]
I guess it's how they work but seems a tad insensitive to me.
It's a small world - I saw a friend on fb commenting on someone else (who they thought might have been on the flight but was actually on a later one) but that person did know someone who was on the flight.
I guess it's how they work but seems a tad insensitive to me.
@wwaswas - at least a Murdoch news company isn't try to hack his phone eh ?
Putin is just copying what the West has done in regions it wants to destabilise for years, arm the locals, send in a few deniable SF troops to lend a bit of support. Sit back wait for chaos.
Works very well
Ukraine did a pretty good job of destabilising itself, what with the 23 years of kleptocracy and crony capitalism up to this point.
@nickc - I don't think the West has been arming people with surface to air missiles. Military advisers yes, special forces yes, automatic rifles yes, explosives yes. Not missiles.
Could be a Western world plot to make Russia look bad.
As an aside I don't think anyone will be showing their left wing credentials by supporting Russia, its one of the most right wing capitalist countries there is.
I don't think the West has been arming people with surface to air missiles.
Mujahideen. Stingers (after they realised the British Blowpipe was a piece of merde).
Instantly decreased the threat of the MI-24 Hind gunship.
Russians were consequently booted out of Afghan.
@pimpmaster - sorry I should have been more accurate, yes the West has given smaller handheld weapons to attack helicopters and ground attack aircraft. Interestingly these handheld units have batteries and other components that expire after 12-18 months so the weapons have a limited lifespan without specialist maintenance.
What I was speaking of was high altitude missiles.
You can't have large swathes of a country just deciding they want to break away.
What, like Scotland? 😉
sorry I should have been more accurate, yes the West has given smaller handheld weapons to attack helicopters and ground attack aircraft.
I did guess that. There was an element of pedantry there too. 😉
Could be a Western world plot to make Russia look bad.
I don't think they need any help really. And look bad in the eyes of whom? Does the tufty-tufty shark wrestler look like he gives a **** what anyone outside Russia thinks? He's got 70%+ approval ratings at home (read that and weep Obama!). Thats the only audience he's interested in playing too
Jambalaya, I'm ready to believe/accept some of those in eastern Ukraine are probably (up until v recently) ex Ukraininan military personnel. I don't find it surprising or unlikely that there are bits of sophisticated kit in the area that were part of the Ukarian armed forces, and its not a surprise or unexpected that there are people within the separatist/militia that know who to use them.
@nick, the pro-Russian rebels posted a picture of their surface to air missiles, shot down a high flying, slow moving Ukrainian cargo plane two days ago and posted on twitter they had shot down another cargo plane yesterday before deleting the tweet. It's common knowledge the Russians have been supplying the rebels and probably fighting alongside them. I think the "captured kit" and conspiracy theories that somehow the Ukrainians have done this to draw the West in are pretty unlikely to the extent we can discount them. The rebels don't have any aircraft so the pro-Ukrainian forces have no need to shoot at planes.
I don't find it surprising or unlikely that there are bits of sophisticated kit in the area that were part of the Ukarian armed forces, and its not a surprise or unexpected that there are people within the separatist/militia that know who to use them.
What jambalaya said basically. Retreating military forces might, if they really were in a hurry, leave a few tanks or whatever, like in Iraq. I very much doubt they'd leave, in a fully functioning condition, surface to air missile batteries, with the massively sophisticated radar equipment to operate it, so you could take out an airliner at 32,000 ft, or your own aircraft flying considerably lower
Any military force worthy of the name would do the same thing. If they couldn't take it with them, they'd blow the thing to ****ing pieces to put it out of action. You don't just happen upon that type of hardware. So the whole idea it was captured, or found, is absolutely ridiculous, really. Theres only one place that kind of kit has come from.
I doubt if Israel[ russia] had a vote on occupied land or took it by force you would be asking that palesitine[ ukraine] respects this and does not try to "retake" the land that is theirs but instead it looks for another solution instead.
+1
Your posts in this thread have served to strengthen my opinion about your views on Israel Ernie.
binners - MemberYou don't just happen upon that type of hardware. So the whole idea it was captured, or found, is absolutely ridiculous, really. Theres only one place that kind of kit has come from.
eBay, of course!!
There was one on the classifieds on here last week. Wrong sized wheels though apparently, so no takers 😉
Perhaps some people should delve into the history of Ukraine with maybe some focus in different experiences between east and west. Perhaps even why it's called Ukraine.
Yeah all these dirty Ukrainians wanting to break away and form their own state with the help of a large international player. I bet it's a Zionist Jew conspiracy.
Any military force worthy of the name would do the same thing.
We're still talking about the Ukrainian military, right? The one that sent armoured vehicles into a town only for the residents to seize them and half of the servicemen to defect? The one that failed to stop a lightly armed insurgency rising from under their noses?
Big chunks of the Ukrainian military didn't retreat, they defected or just abandoned base.
Will I have time to get this in if Russia hits the nuclear button/everything escalates?
[img] 
[/img]