[Closed] Is this sexual and racial discrimination ?

I may be out of order here but I think not.

I am guessing the Employment Tribunal may be better able to decide than anyone on here, not least having heard factual evidence etc...

To discipline her for not turning up to work is fine; to make a reference to the reason being because she is a single mother is not.
Rachel

is it not a fact that she's a single mother?

What the hell is this country coming too.!!
What next, sorry I can't go to war coz I'm having my hair done
or it's the wrong time of the month and I'm riding the cotton pony!

I am guessing the Employment Tribunal may be better able to decide than anyone on here, not least having heard factual evidence etc...

Should be end of thread...

If only grum, if only...

Dino - it was funny when Gene Hunt said it.

No it wasn't.

Is there not a [i]possibility[/i] that she [i]may[/i] get as much as that, not for not turning up to work because her childcare didn't work but because of what happened after that. Seeing as we have no idea what happened after that (but someone thinks it is important enough for a tribunal) maybe we should just let them get on with it? Then get annoyed or approve of something that has actually happened, if we actually know anything about it...

EDIT- but to answer your question, no they shouldn't have to pay £100,000 for someone who didn't turn up for work, not sure if that was your point though.

no you two we need more insightful comments from [s]neanderthal[/s] informed individuals like dino.
Heard it on radio and we [uk govt]also refused to let a relative of hers enter the country who would have been able to provide childcare.

OP sex and race has absolutely nothing to do with the story.

OP sex and race has absolutely nothing to do with the story.

It was a case against the army brought on the grounds of sexual and racial discrimination. Are you stupid ?

As always the full story is unknown.

If it was a simple as

Person gets job, person continuously late for work due to personal issues - then yes that person should be told to sort themselves out else quit.

Immigration, sex, race or parental status should not come into it.

Not even slightly racial or sexual. There are single dads in the army. It's a sad relection of our society that she won on these grounds.
Getting charged isn't at all uncommon even for some fairly moderate misdemeanors so £100K is completely disproportionate.
Personally I don't blame her for not leaving her child alone but no way should she get even a penny let alone £100K.

The corporal missed work when her child was ill, and was late for parade, resulting in disciplinary action.

Seems fair enough, I'd expect that in my job.

Her commanding officer told Cpl Debique she was expected to be available for duty at any time.

Surely that is to be expected - "Sorry, we can't defend the country as the toddlers group doesn't start till 9am"

The MoD said Cpl Debique was offered an alternative job, but left.

So they tried to fit her in somewhere else where looking after her kid would be easier, which was quite good practice. (A child which she abandoned with relatives THEN decided when she was ALREADY in the Army to have her back - surely anyone would have checked childcare arrangements before doing this, or am I a bit dim?)

The tribunal criticised the Army for not helping to make childcare arrangements. The MoD says serving personnel who are parents are responsible for childcare arrangements so that they can fulfil all their Army duties.

Err, like any other job in the world!!

I know I'm only taking the short report from the BBC to see what happened but to me it sounds like she didn't really want to be in the army, and left when she thought she might get a big payout, milking it for every penny. I've seen it before in a manager who used to be in another job I had, and she openly admitted that's what she did.

OP sex and race has absolutely nothing to do with the story

You'd best phone the Tribunal members - it's clearly a mis-trial!

The MoD says serving personnel who are parents are responsible for childcare arrangements so that they can fulfil all their Army duties

so they feed, clothe and house them but if they have kids they're on their own ?

so they feed, clothe and house them but if they have kids they're on their own ?

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

There in the army, not working for local council! 😉

SFB, where do you stop though? Parents, kids, grandparents, cousins - "Oh they all live with me so you have to sort them out too". The Army feed them (are you sure they pay for all food?, I don't know, sorry), clothe them (only the uniforms mind you) and house them (they have to be near/on a base and can move often so it makes sense) but why should they be responsible for the wider family?

I know I'm only taking the short report from the BBC to see what happened but to me it sounds like she didn't really want to be in the army, and left when she thought she might get a big payout, milking it for every penny.

Lol. I imagine she also skins cats for fun, and loves Gary Glitter and has pet spiders - that's the impression I got from the article.

that's the impression I got from the article.

I think a more correct assessment would be 'that's what I read into the article' !

Woody - Member

that's the impression I got from the article.

I think a more correct assessment would be 'that's what I read into the article' !

Woody - Member

OP sex and race has absolutely nothing to do with the story.

It was a case against the army brought on the grounds of sexual and racial discrimination. Are you stupid?

SFB, where do you stop though?

give it up as a bad job - why do we need an army ?

Junkyard, it is easy to miss when you read the link, it is tucked away in the first paragraph, the one in bold type 😉
EDIT- don't worry though, there is an awful lot of assuming going on, this is the internet!

Assumption is always a problem without a full report. The fact that she won the case would indicate there is a great deal more than the BBC were able to report in a few paragraphs.

Disregarding the final payout amount (£100k is much more emotive from a journalistic viewpoint than what may be the final figure), some areas on which the payout amount will be based are interesting eg. [b][i]injury to feelings and aggravated damages[/i][/b]. I would love to know how that is assessed as she is already getting compensation for loss of earnings, presumably past and? future.

In a nut shell: If you're a soldier you should be deployable. Whenever, wherever, however - thats the nature of the job. If you cant do it then you are in the wrong line of work.

Oi RepacK! - you can't go around making statements like that and using common sense. The army is clearly remiss in not having creche facilities in all operational areas. 😉

I'm sure Political correctness will come before common sense.

Remember the case of the RAF worker with RSI who 'won' £400,000?

so they feed, clothe and house them but if they have kids they're on their own ?

Erm, slightly odd conclusion to draw there. It's more like they're feeding, clothing and housing them and they're fine with them having children providing it doesn't interfere with what they are paid to do. Sounds pretty fair to me. If they're discriminating because she's a single parent, it's not ideal, but if they're punishing because single parent proved incapable of juggling work and life then they're perfectly justified.

hora - Member
I'm sure Political correctness will come before common sense.

What, a bit like your opinions? 😉

why do we need an army ?

I'd say for national defence, protect our own borders from the hordes of foreign invaders just waiting to come and rape and pillage, and to be a back-up if the Fire Brigade go on strike.

Can't see a great deal of point in having much more than that, though, I must say...

bit odd this one, as a bleeding heart liberal, married to a grumpy feminist, I think this is neither sexual nor racial discrimination. The army have been a bit harsh, but to be fair, thats the army for you! If the Army lifestyle does not fit your needs and desires, then the army is not for you. If childcare is an issue, then solve it yourself or leave. certainly don't see how this is racism, and as for sexism, does the fact she's a woman make a difference? If a man had caring responsibilities that he could not meet because of his job, he would have to choose which of those responsibilities was the most important to him. Given that her child was cared for in a different country and she mannaged to serve this one addequately, clearly she chose her job. Now that hasn't worked out, I'm sorry, but its a hard life.

My colleagues pay a fortune to childminders and baby sitters, so that they can work the weekends and nights required by my job. that is a sacrifice they chose to make.

So no more humanitarian missions? No help for those in the shit/suffering persecution/being murdered and having their arms chopped off? (Bosnia, Sierra Leone etc etc etc).
Can we cut the UK aid to abroad as well then?

I'd say for national defence, protect our own borders from the hordes of foreign invaders just waiting to come and rape and pillage

unless you're talking about Scottish people I'd just like to point out we're protected by a large moat...

'I can't fight, I have two young children at home Sarge and my Wife would never forgive me. Could someone else cover for me?'

'I am on a particularly heavy period this month and the CO obviously hates all women yet expected me to go on a gruelling 20mile hike'

Well duh, some people have boats you know.. 🙄

Arse - I've been proven bloody wrong!

I was in the Fleet Air Arm (Royal Navy) in 1990 when the first Wrens were integrated into the mainstream and "allowed" onto ships and the first female aircrew were starting their training. I was one of the bleeding heart liberals who said it was a good thing and about time too. The "old and bolds" of the wardroom all grumbled and gnashed teeth about the realities of front line responsibilities conflicting with home life. I remember one of them predicting EXACTLY this case - uncanny.

Usual caveat - probably lots more to the story, can't judge from a brief synopsis, yada yada.

finding it hard to find the "racial" aspect of the story other than the government refused the family member entry into the country, but then again i'm sure that "i'm her babysitter" warrants a visa these days.

If you're a single parent then there should be reasonable flexibility in the job, but the army? thats a bit of a grey one - "I'll come out and shoot some taliban just as soon as i've sterilised some bottles"

£100K seems a bit much, especially on the grounds of "injury of feelings"

So no more humanitarian missions? No help for those in the shit/suffering persecution/being murdered and having their arms chopped off? (Bosnia, Sierra Leone etc etc etc).

Rwanda? Zimbabwe? Somalia? Sudan? Etc...

British Army involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq doesn't really seem to have brought much peace and stability to those countries, in fact, more are dying there now than before the British Army (led by their US puppet masters) rolled in...

Funny how lots of other countries manage to have relatively small military forces, yet still manage to help out with Humanitarian missions.

some people have boats you know

and the army is well supplied with countermeasures ? If so, scrap the navy instead.

The only sexual discrimination here is the assumption that a man would not also have child care issues.

FFS none of us have any idea how she was treated! All we know is that she was treated badly enough to win her tribunal and the maximum limit for what she [b]might[/b] get is £100,000!
The only sexual and racial discrimination here is whatever happened that should not have happened. [b]Point is we haven't got a clue what it, specifically, was![/b]

I note that everyone in all these cases seems to think that they have "got away with it" and got cash for nothing. MOD can, I assume (oh, bugger, now I am doing it!) afford some serious legal representation if needed she may still end up with a raw deal, who knows? Not us, thats for sure 🙂

Funny how lots of other countries manage to have relatively small military forces, yet still manage to help out with Humanitarian missions.

Like ours you mean?
Kosovo, bosnia, nicaragua, ****stan, sierra leone, Sumatra, ethiopia, liberia, dominica, Somalia, it goes on. Not done your homework have you?
Just beacuse the liebor party have our servicepeople currently engaged in conflicts of questionable moral standing it should not detract from the very good work they do.

In fairness as Tracker says we don;t know what happended and its likely to be the details we don't know which affected the outcome of her case. For instance was the alternative job she was offered a Cleaner or cook? having that rammed down her throat could have been sexual discrimination.... oh hang on a minute i'm speculating... i'll get my coat

Jeez Tracker, where's the fun & potential to spout ill-founded moans about the legal system in that?

Just beacuse the liebor party have our servicepeople currently engaged in conflicts of questionable moral standing it should not detract from the very good work they do.

TJ - last time I drove up to visit my parents, I don't recall having to catch a ferry. They could do a quick patch-up on that wall though, that would keep you nice and safe 😕

liebor

Do you regularly post comments on the Daily Mail site by any chance?

🙂

No.
Do you approve of and support the war in Iraq by any chance?

Grum do you automatically accuse anyone with a dislike of labour of being some kind of "daily mail" (that's getting sooo tired BTW) bigot? Or just anyone who doesn't conform with your own political beliefs?

Sad fact is 100k for this case yet lads and lasses getting injured in the sand have to get pretty badly cut up to get 100k damages.

[img] [/img]

Grum do you automatically accuse anyone with a dislike of labour of being some kind of "daily mail" (that's getting sooo tired BTW) bigot?

No it's just the tell tale use of the term 'liebour' - very common on the Daily Mail comments section ;). Do you refer to Tony Blair as Tony Bliar as well?

I'm no fan of New Labour either btw.

Tony Bliar

LOL, how ever did they come up with that one? Genius!! 🙄 🙄

I've never read the mail in my life. The caterers in work buy it and leave it out which I ignore due to;
a) it's shit and more importantly.
b) the rugby section is crap.
They got any names for brown I can nick?

Interesting comment on one of the sunday morning political shows the other week "of course, the reason why Germany are coming through the recession so well is because they don't have to pay for armed forces".

Not saying it's true or I agree, but something to think about.

I would think all the Army have to do in above case is show that they have also put male and white soldiers on a charge for failing to report due to childcare issues - although as many of said there is likely more to it than the BBC article.

there is likely more to it than the BBC article.

Don't worry, we'll get all the 'facts' once Max Clifford has negotiated a suitable deal with one of the Sunday papers.

Who pays for the bundeswehr?
They are more than twice the size of our army.

Woody - Member

TJ - last time I drove up to visit my parents, I don't recall having to catch a ferry. They could do a quick patch-up on that wall though, that would keep you nice and safe

Que? what on earth?

Backhander - I could be wrong, but aren't all German citizens obliged to do National Service ? I met a German guy while travelling (1995 ?), and he had opted to spend some time looking after a disabled person instead.

I'm not an expert, I just thought it was an interesting comment.

Lol at the Hadrian's wall comment - you know the funny stories your parents tell you when you are a kid that you think are true ? My dad told me they made that wall to keep the Scots in (he was Scots) and I believed this for many years until I went to Uni.

you mean it was actually to keep the Romans out ?

True hels, but they still get paid. Quarter of a million troops and associated equipment don't come cheap.
Having said that, they aren't committed to as many places or in the intesity that we are; funding afghanistan isn't particularly helping our economy. Maybe ask the US to pay for it or else we'll f*** it off?

Lol at the Hadrian's wall comment

TJ's obviously a bit 'tired' today + LOL @ SFB, who is obviously not 😆

Who pays for the bundeswehr?
They are more than twice the size of our army.

Not according to [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops ]these figures[/url], although they have a significant number of military reservists. The actual per capita of military personnel is lower than the UK (3.5 to 3.9 per 1000). Germany may have a larger military, but have over 20 million more people than the UK. These figures may be skewed by the fact that Germany has compulsory National Service, although persons can opt out, as [b]hels[/b] points out.

Germany doesn't seem to be involved in as many overseas military 'theatres' as the UK.

Actually, you're quite right, they are only a bit bigger but do have a massive amount of reservists (350,000!!). Having said that, they are still the 6th biggest spender on defence. We're 4th but this could be attributed to the fact we're heavily committed in an expensive war.

Who pays for the bundeswehr?

**** all use as well.

simonfbranes - from what I can gather now that I live in Scotland, it is to give a ready supply of half bricks to lob across the border during the 6 Nations.

Even if she was discriminated against it does not warrant £100k payout, it should mean severe consequences for the perpetrator's if it is indeed the case.

No one has asked the most pertinent and important question in all this debate though; Is she fit?

Wrong question Hora -"what are her chebs like?"

She would of have to have been a serial offender to get disciplinary action against her as well. Good riddance one less war dodger in the Army. Commonwealth soldiers get it too easy due to management being scared of the racism or bullying card being pulled. They also get an extra 6 weeks off too to go back home to there country.

She would of have to have

❓

to go back home to [b]there[/b] country

🙄

She would of have to have

She would of been

to go back home to there country

to go back to their home country

She would of been

😀

Sorry landy that [i]is[/i] funny.

FFS another admin burden!!! At least she's gone. I am sorry but most single parents are an absolute nightmare in the forces. It's not a normal 9-5 job so if you don't like it, get out.

The former corporal said she was expected to be available for duty "24/7, 365 days a year" and was told the Army was "unsuitable for a single mother who couldn't sort out her childcare arrangements".

The tribunal criticised the Army for not helping to make childcare arrangements.

The Army will have to look very carefully at what they are asking single parents to do, she added.

[img] [/img]
Send the Kid to the front as well??

Do other employers provide care? if so then the army should be no different.

Personally I think an employer would not employ someone who has kids that is needed on call.

Being available for duty or deployment 24/7 is part of any service persons Terms of Service, which everyone is made fully aware of. It is also the individual's responsibility to sort their family business out, although some flexibility can be arranged in extreme circumstances. There must have been some extra 'treatment' which we do not know about (such as different rules for other soldiers in similar situations). Sad day though, there's a growing number of female service-people who milk the system on this issue (yes I do have experience of this issue in my unit and several previous units).