[Closed] Is this actually racial hatred?

[i]but I thought one of the great things about living in the UK is that we can do this sort of thing if we want to. [/i]

No, you can't. Which is why they were arrested presumably.

As far as I'm aware, Islam is a religion, not a race, so from the text above, no.

On the other hand, they might have been burning the Koran and using racist language at the same time...

Whilst I agree with your point of view, and it being the great thing about living in a free country and all that, we only have to see how much of response there was to that Dutch cartoonist the other year. Wasp nest, kicking it.

The charge is "Inciting Racial hatred". That doesn't mean that what they actually did was racist, but presumably, a Moslem might see that video and decide they hate the British as a result.

"inciting racial hatred" - seems reasonable to me (I mean that they are culpable of that crime)

I doubt they were doing it in an attempt to engender greater tolerance or understanding of muslims, somehow.

Whilst I don't agree with burning books, this is another attack on our civil liberties. I'm sick to death of this country and it's attitude towards so called terrorists.

It seems were not even allowed to have an opinion anymore!

If they are up for insighting racial hatred, they'll not be convicted because this was religious hatred.

Personally, I can't see why anyone would get so upset by a bunch of total strangers willfully destroying their own property, but then it's funny how religion often affects the mind!

The charge is "Inciting Racial hatred". That doesn't mean that what they actually did was racist, but presumably, a Moslem might see that video and decide they hate the British as a result.

If that is the position taken, then it would set an odd precedent.

You have to understand that the Koran is not just the "Islamic Bible". It has a deeper meaning than that. It's like some-one taking for instance every possession or thing or person that you've ever held dear or love, and saying "These are all heinous and worthless, and are just fit for the bonfire"...then watching your granny go up in flames...

You'd be upset, no?

If that is the position taken, then it would set an odd precedent.

I'd be annoyed if somebody burnt my back issues of [i]Bike[/i].

Anyone know for a fact if DailySponge is right? You'd have thought the Police might have a clue.

AFAIK the incitement of racial hatred means that folk watching the video would be incited to hate muslims.

spongebob - under the various acts that govern this sort of thing muslims are considered a race and are given the same protection. Same as jews. Odd tho it seems.

Filthy - I think burning book that is sacred to some is rather more than expressing an opinion. YOu equate all muslims with "so called terrorists"?

then watching your granny go up in flames...

Where this analogy fails is, it's watching someone else's granny go up in flames.

I'm sick to death of this country and it's attitude towards so called terrorists.

The next ship leaves in an hour.

Whilst I don't agree with burning books, this is another attack on our civil liberties. I'm sick to death of this country and it's attitude towards so called terrorists.

It seems were not even allowed to have an opinion anymore!

Eh? ❓

I find it odd that we think we have the right to burn the holiest book and act all surprised that this causes offences. A bit like me thing I have the right to come round your house and calling your wife names and and acting all surprised when you are offended and thump me /kick me out. We have freedom of specch not freedon to offend
EDIT: Is Filthy trolling or very dull witted? anyone know?

the incitement of racial hatred means that folk watching the video would be incited to hate muslims.

1) Muslim isn't a race, last I checked.

2) The people watching that video probably hate Muslims to start with, I don't see as they need much inciting.

It seems were not even allowed to have an opinion anymore!

if they wanted to voice an opinion a well reasoned essay would be a better medium than burning a book.

It is similar to punching a catholic in the face and saying that you don't agree with the handling of the child abuse. it's just not the done way to do things.

Think they're members of the EDL. As I said before, I doubt they were doing it in order to promote racial or religious tolerance.

I meant the book burning geordies were been treated as terrorists, not the muslims.

Surely it's religious hatred?
Muslims are available in many races including the same as that of the book burners.
Grrr down with Muslims but not white ones?

noteeth - Member

I'd be annoyed if somebody burnt my back issues of Bike.

But you wouldn't give a stuff if i burned my own copies. Would you?

The people watching that video probably hate Muslims to start with, I don't see as they need much inciting.

Can you incite yourself to do something?

FAIL!

I meant the book burning geordies were been treated as terrorists, not the muslims.

How?

I find it odd that we think we have the right to burn the holiest book and act all surprised that this causes offences. A bit like me thing I have the right to come round your house and calling your wife names and and acting all surprised when you are offended and thump me /kick me out. We have freedom of specch not freedon to offend

+1

People are burning the book to deliberately piss off Muslims.

spongebob surely you can see the difference - they hold the book to be sacred whoever owns it.

Most British Muslims tend to be Brown. So, it's probbly safe to assume that this was in fact a stunt designed to stir up racial hatred, yes.

I think the mistake was in giving such ignorant stupidity any publicity. Just a bunch of frustrated inadequate pigshit-thick morons with nowt else to do but hate and blame others for their own shortcomings.

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Drac,

Because the anti terror laws cover "inciting racial hatred".. hence treated like a terrorist.

spongebob surely you can see the difference - they hold the book to be sacred whoever owns it.

Like the Americans get over their flag. Does anyone else really care about their flag the way the Americans do? Not really. Does it make burning an American flag ok? Not really.

[url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/1/contents ]racial and religious hatred act 2006[/url]

Whilst I don't agree with burning books, this is another attack on our civil liberties. I'm sick to death of this country and it's attitude towards so called terrorists.

It seems were not even allowed to have an opinion anymore

Have reported this to Mods.

I've just put the kettle on, and I think MrsBarnsley bought some hob nobs yesterday.

"but I thought one of the great things about living in the UK is that we can do this sort of thing if we want to. "

what gave you that idea?

We have freedom of specch not freedon to offend

No we don't, nor do we have a right not to be offended.

Filthy - Member

I meant the book burning geordies were been treated as terrorists, not the muslims.

No they were not - they were treated as suspected criminals under various bits of UK law

Filthy - Member

Drac,

Because the anti terror laws cover "inciting racial hatred".. hence treated like a terrorist.

I think you will find its an admendment to the public order act - nothing to do with anti terrorist legislation

why, charlie mungus, I think youve taken it out of context, I was referring to the geordies been treated as terrorists

To be honest, inciting Muslim extreemists to blow up Gateshead is probably doing everyone else a favour.

barnsleymitch - Member
Think they're members of the EDL. As I said before, I doubt they were doing it in order to promote racial or religious tolerance.

I always wondered what those EDL threads on STW were about.

why am I full of shit... some geordies expressed a dislike of muslims by burning a book, they got arrested for "inciting racial hatred"

Are the geordies not entitiled to an opinion, it seems from reading that link that TJ posted were not allowed to say what we think of various religions anymore.

There's a difference between saying "I don't like religion" and going out of your way to piss people off, n'est-ce pas?

I really don't comprehend how Islam has transmogrified into a race.

As I understand it, being Jews are an ethnic group as well as a religion. If you stop practising Judaism, you're still Jewish.

If you're a Muslim, it's a different situation - there's no ethnic group to it, in fact, it's fair to say it's racially inclusive - a guy in Iran IIRC was on trial recently for having an afro, which was deemed to be a decadent African-American import. The ruling went in his favour on the basis that there are a large number of African-American muslims.

why am I full of shit... some geordies expressed a dislike of muslims by burning a book, they got arrested for "inciting racial hatred"

That's hardly being treat like a terrorist now is it.

Are the geordies not entitiled to an opinion, it seems from reading that link that TJ posted were not allowed to say what we think of various religions anymore.

Expressing an opinion is one thing, burning an 'effigy' is another.

why am I full of shit... some geordies expressed a dislike of muslims by burning a book, they got arrested for "inciting racial hatred"

Well, they did do something deliberately to peeve another group. That's where the 'racial hatred' bit comes from. It's a bit like standing up in the middle of town and starting to speak about how all 'Insert pejorative / racist term here' should all go back where they came from. We don't have that freedom, whether or not we should have, is a different argument.

The use of the term race w.r.t. Muslims is perfectly reasonable, race has wider meaning than a narrow definition based on genetics, but this is a pointless semantic argument. I'm generally anti-semantic.

CharlieMungus - Member
I'm generally anti-semantic.

What did the Jews ever do to you?

Isn't the book burning just harking back to the late 80's when bearded men could frequently be seen on the streets of the uk burning copies of the satanic verses and calling fir Salman Rushdie to be killed?

As with the regular burnings of the stars and stripes in ****stan, it's the response of the beardy weirdies that gave the act of book burning the significance in the first place. There have also been regular burnings of the bible in predominantly Moslem countries yet we don't see Christians demanding death to the citizens of these states.

If religions are ever going to get along, something that seems increasingly unlikely given the seemingly unstopppable rise of radicalism, it requires allpeople of faith to stop making the acts of idiots significant by responding to them disproportionately.

Have reported this to Mods.

What on Earth for? It's not really offensive.

Filthy is correct in saying that Geordies, like all minority groups, are entitled to an opinion.

Where he misses the point though, imo, is the fact that these dickheads aren't trying to make a valid political point or anything, they're just doing something they know will upset others. Because they're sad inadequate tossers. I feel sorry for people like that; I pity them. How can you be so thick and ignorant that this is the only way you can express yourself?

I think you should have the right to voice your pinions; however, there should be boundaries. And act like this isn't really about stimulating debate/postulating ideas, is it? It's about trying to instigate a fight.

I discuss Zionism and Israel's treatment of Palestinians with Jewish friends of mine, some of whom believe in the concept of a Jewish homeland. I don't share this view. We discuss it in a respectful, amicable manner. I don't turn up with a Swastika armband, because I can articulate my opinions in an effective and reasonable manner.

These sad ****s can't do that. The only language they can use is hatred and aggression.

BTW I do not wish to imply in any way that Geordies, as a race, are inherently racist or xenophobic, and do not consider these individuals to be representative of Geordies in any way.

[i]It seems were not even allowed to have an opinion anymore[/i]

Have reported this to Mods.

See? See what I did there?

It's funny because he expressed an opinion abouot not being allowed to express and opinion and i pretended to report him for it. See?

Oh right I get yer. I was too blinded by hate to see the irony. 😳

[i]What on Earth for? It's not really offensive. [/i]

Er. For irony value. The opinion that we're not allowed to have an opinion gets reported? Never mind. It made me do a RealLOL, though. Well done.

that's ok, he missed it as well. My talents are wasted here.

Elfin - Too blinded by thinking about kylie and interfering with yourself more like.

sn't the book burning just harking back to the late 80's when bearded men could frequently be seen on the streets of the uk burning copies of the satanic verses and calling fir Salman Rushdie to be killed?

Tsk. Pesky literary critics...

Curses! Too slow am I!

Oooh....Kylie....

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Now, where was I?

that's ok, he missed it as well. My talents are wasted here.

It made me laugh, I laughed even more at Filthy missing the point.

So filthy - in what way were the people doing this treated as terrorists?

Please explain.

yeah went right over my head too...

very good Charlie

TJ- That pic is a real show stopper. Well done

under the various acts that govern this sort of thing muslims are considered a race and are given the same protection.

Which is more than slightly barmy! Muslims come from all different races. These two groups are quite different. This generalisation could in fact be seen as an insult by muslims!

There should be a clear distinction between these two very different crimes.

Posting videos like burning religious books was clearly done to upset people and for this, the culprits should be punished, but as to what the punishment should be, I don't really know. It definitely ain't racist though!

If these "various acts governing this sort of thing" are so general, you may as well lump in any so called minority group. You could then be called a racist for discriminating against lesbians/gays! (if you were a narrow minded homophobe).

Race and religion are two separate entities, but linked by culture.

Culture? Define that in Britain today? Impossible! We have 186 languages spoken in the London Borough of Newham for just one example. Which one shall we choose? Which culture of which country? How will we avoid upsetting one or several of those minorities?

We have a rich language, so why not use it's vocabulary to describe what we actually mean instead of confusing the hell out of people and potentially criminalising those who haven't yet caught up with all the political correctness!

Religous hatred - one type of crime
Racial hatred - another type of crime

Both very wrong, but not the same!

it seems from reading that link that TJ posted were not allowed to say what we think of various religions anymore.

Of course we're allowed to say what we think. But we also have a social, moral and (more importantly) legal responsibility to ensure our words and deeds do not cause offence or harm to others. What's the problem with that?

I really don't comprehend how Islam has transmogrified into a race.

I've already explained this. Had you been paying attention, you'd understand.

Religous hatred - one type of crime
Racial hatred - another type of crime

..and both caught under the same legislation, whether you think that is correct or not.

I find it odd that we think we have the right to burn the holiest book and act all surprised that this causes offences. A bit like me thing I have the right to come round your house and calling your wife names and and acting all surprised when you are offended and thump me /kick me out. We have freedom of specch not freedon to offend

😆

Why is the Quran holier than the Bible or the Torah?
It's nothing like going to someones property and verbally abusing them. What a strange analogy.
That said, it is a truly disrespectful thing to do.

In my opinion which isn't always right but I like it 😉

The geordies were treated as terrorists because I though the laws regarding "inciting racial hatred" came about as part of the anti terror laws.

I was more annoyed as it seemed like they were expressing thier freedom of speach which has been eroded recently in this country, however as most of you have pointed out they did go a bit far with the book burning, I did say that I didn't condone the burning of books in my first post.

Anyway I'm off to cook my tea, sick of been treated like a terrorist by you lot.

Religous hatred - one type of crime
Racial hatred - another type of crime

Both very wrong, but not the same!

both very similar and luckily and neatly caught under the same bit of legislation..

[url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/1/contents ]link[/url]

The geordies were treated as terrorists because I though the laws regarding "inciting racial hatred" came about as part of the anti terror laws

are you a martian..?

Anyway I'm off to cook my tea, sick of been treated like a terrorist by you lot.

Why not organise a Dirty Protest?

I'd be up for that! 😀

In my opinion which isn't always right but I like it

Hence the full of shite bit. 😀

The geordies were treated as terrorists because I though the laws regarding "inciting racial hatred" came about as part of the anti terror laws.

That still wouldn't make them terrorists.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race?&qsrc=

3.
Anthropology .
...
b.
an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
...

5.
any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.

We have freedom of specch not freedon to offend

I am offended by your spelling. No one should be arrested for it though.

[i]But we also have a social, moral and (more importantly)legal responsibility to ensure our words and deeds do not cause offence or harm to others[/i]

Do we actually have a legal obligation not to offend others? I'm not aware of it, and John Cleese famously said "no-one has the right not to be offended" - though, of course, he unfortunately didn't write the statute on this one. If I say the pope looks like he's walking round in a pair of curtains designed for a priest to hide in so as to covertly touch nearby boys, then I'm probably offending a few people but I don't believe it's illegal.

Causing offence is not the same as things like "inciting racial hatred" - one just makes people upset, the other knowingly and intentionally drives people to illegal action.

Personally I think socially and morally we actually have a duty to offend some people in some ways. Any time people hold up some writing in defence of any sort of oppressive behaviour, for instance, I think they need a good bit of offending. (Another quote, this time Tim Minchin: "It's not that I hate religion, I just think we should ridicule it until it's removed from our schools and our governments".) There are things that should be challenged and causing offence can be a constructive way of doing so. However, videoing yourself burning Korans is clearly not constructive offence, whereas it may be done so as to whip up anti-Muslim fervour in those already of a similar leaning.

There have also been regular burnings of the bible in predominantly Moslem countries yet we don't see Christians demanding death to the citizens of these states.

Maybe Christians would be a bit more radical if Muslim countries were invading and occupying Christian countries on a semi-regular basis?

Do we actually have a legal obligation not to offend others? I'm not aware of it

One bit that I know of is under Public Order (section 5) which states that 'language or behaviour likely to cause offence' ist verboten. This relates to public places, mind, but I'm pretty sure there are similar laws which apply to broadcast media, which this particular case involves.

So, erm, yes.

More Kylie? I think so! 😀

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Well, it is almost Friday...

Maybe Christians would be a bit more radical if Muslim countries were invading and occupying Christian countries on a semi-regular basis?

+ a gazillion..

invading.. occupying.. forcing to adopt a very foreign culture.. wiping out minority groups that voice disapproval..

where is the line between terrorist.. insurgent.. guerrilla.. freedom fighter.. resistance fighter.. farmer trying to protect his wife.. family.. home.. cultural identity..?

Right then, let's dispense with the moronic actions of a bunch of nazi cockmonkeys. I'm more concerned with fred's apparently blossoming interest in coprophilia. Bad boy, dirty boy, in your bed!

What, no Dirty Protest?

(Waits with own poo in hand, but no-one to throw it at)

🙁

Why is the Quran holier than the Bible or the Torah?

Because Islam specifically places a very high value on the book, not just the words and concepts that are written in it. I believe that it's a specific sin/very bad thing in Islam to desecrate or destroy a Koran, or something like that.

Years ago, during a World Cup, Robert Wiseman Dairies printed milk cartons with the flags of competing nations on them. This caused a minor fuss, because Saudi Arabia's flag has a verse from the Koran on it, so anyone throwing a carton with that flag away would be committing blasphemy!

Whether or not you think it's a bit silly for a religion to place such a value in the vessel as well as the ideas it contains is up to you. Nevertheless that's probably why buring a Koran is more inflammatory than burning a bible.

elfin - I believe that yesterday I likened you to an enraged mandrill. You're further insistence today in going feeshus crazy is unlikely to change my opinion. 😐

Fair enough really, although I don't have a distended red bottom.

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