MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I'm sure you've all heard about it: Pestfix, a company worth £19,000, was awarded a PPE contract for £100m. Contracts are being doled out without tender, oversight or transparency. Investigative reporting by The Guardian/DemocracyNow shows that these companies often have links back to the leave campaign sponsors and donors and in some cases are friends or associates of Boris/Cummings/Gove etc. There's always been corruption in this country, but it at least tried tried to present itself as legitimate. The current lot don't even bother with that, yet they seem to be operating with impunity. Is this the new normal?
Corrupt? Absolutely.
This isn't the new normal, it's just normal.
I am reminded of comments made years ago in the Hitchhiker's Guide...
Anyone capable of getting themselves elected should on no account be allowed to do the job.
The role of the President of the Galaxy also seems strangely relevant these days. The intention of the role being to distract people from the exercise of power and not to actually wield it.
Yes, we are just somewhere on a moving scale of corruption compared to others. What more interesting is how its normal and open in some countrys, hidden and frowned on in others.
Is that a serious question?
Of course it's corrupt.
See also: Jenrick and that porn baron's flats last month...
No doubt in my mind.
Makes me really want to pay attention in all the anti bribery/corruption training/exams I have to do.
I think it’s all EU mandated stuff though, which would explain a lot.
Is the UK a corrupt country?
No.
Only some of the arseholes who run some of it.
Countries can't be corrupt. Only people can.
According to modern studies, the Top 10 tax havens include corporate-focused havens like the Netherlands, Singapore, Ireland and the U.K., while Luxembourg, Hong Kong, the Caribbean (the Caymans, Bermuda, and the British Virgin Islands) and Switzerland feature as both major traditional tax havens and major corporate tax havens. Corporate tax havens often serve as "conduits" to traditional tax havens.(wiki)
Who pays the Conservative party? Who paid for their adverts (shown to be full of lies)? All no10 policy decisions seem to come down to that.
No.
Only some of the arseholes who run some of it.
Countries can’t be corrupt. Only people can.
If the top is corrupt enough, though, it means everything further down is corrupted to the point where the whole country is, effectively, corrupt.
Mobutu in Zaire is the best example of a Kleptocracy, where there were so many Mr Ten Percents at every stage of getting anything done that nothing ever actually got done. And the people below the lowest level where taking a 10% was worthwhile were effectively ungoverned. Except when any form of organised dissent appeared, of course.
The UK is corrupt and it is getting worse. The main empowering factor that allows people to make obscene amounts of money is to have a marginally less obscene amount of money to start with. Connections help too.
Politcally, very e.g. we allow overseas donations to polictal parties, you can buy peerages, lobbying is totally unregulated.
In day to day commercial transactions, much less so that other countries, although obviously it exists.
However, on a scale of 1 to Nigera, we're about a 2.
"We" vote for politicians who are corrupt and they help their non-politicians mates (who are probably even more corrupt) with back handers, policies and laws that assist them and so on.
I'd say no compared to many others. that's not to say corruption doesn't happen, it does, everywhere in our society, but I'd say its not as common as many places....its not an accepted part of our culture unlike a lot of countries. We probably aren't the best/least corrupt, but I reckon we are much closer to it than the other end of the spectrum.
In a way it makes it worse when it does happen...we have more right expect better and tend to be outraged and p**'d off more as a result!
the current bunch do need better scrutiny than they appear to be getting... Still glad i live here generally though.
Westminster and most councils are extremely corrupt - far worse than most european countries.
It's getting worse, in the olden days if you got caught with your fingers in the till you'd have to resign to a nonexec director position somewhere, these days we've imported the Putin model of just denying it and carrying on. Post Brexit that's not going to improve.
I would say that across quite a lot of the world (although the US does take a lead followed by the UK), immorality for the rich and powerful has been legalised, while poverty is becoming more and more criminalised.
Whether you consider that corruption may depend on your point of view.
Westminster and most councils are extremely corrupt – far worse than most european countries.
Depends on how you view it, imo the whole system is corrupt in the uk, where it is just benefits the few and they don't need to break the law. Where as in lots of Europe the local mayor or councils can have undue influence, taking bribes etc to allow illegal housing developments. The effects are rather similar for the majority of society, whether it is legalised or systemic corruption.
We're way worse than the banana republics bevause it's institutionalised.
Capitalism is front and centre though. Who needs an empire if you control the capital?
The whole system is rigged. We all know it but press on because it feels too big to conceptualise.
The low-IQ'ers will go "you bloody communist" for pointing this out. When they know full well that communism's a failure too, and that there are loads of potential systems, not just the two.
Unfortunately, nowt is going to change without popular violence. Period.
If you think voting is going to change things you've fallen for one of the cons. Government is middle management for the rich.
Is there a country that isn't corrupt!?
It's just degrees of corruption.
TJ the CPI doesn't bear out your assertion. Northern European countries score similar or slightly better but Spain for example has a pretty open system of patronage.
It's the top where the damage is being done, it's not endemic in daily life like a lot of countries (yet)
In comparison to Russia, Africa and the Middle East, we’ve still got a way to go but also a long way From the Nordic countries too.
The most worrying trend I see is that we all assume that it's faceless institutions that are corrupt rather than actual individuals who should probably go to jail for it.
Those individual can seemingly hide behind the anonymity and protection of the country / the government / Westminster / the council etc without any real fear of personal liability and retribution.
"But, everyone does it!" shouldn't be a defence.....but it is because we, the people,* tolerate it as such.
* Yes, I am fully aware of the irony of suggesting a faceless collective should be holding individuals to account.
the stabiliser - that will be because much of the corruption is hidden in plain sight. All those MPs with second and third "jobs" where they are paid huge sums for 2 hours a year - that will not show up as corruption but it is.
Oh I see, of course, you'd best get on to transparency international and tell them about the flaws in their method.
Yes, we're easily the most corrupt country in Europe, if not the whole of the developed World.
We (Brits) don't even seem to care, we call it the 'Old Boy network' or something equally disarming which makes it sound almost sweet, but it's scary how small a group our Prime Ministers, Senior Civil Servants and Heads of Business come from. Our First Prime Minister went to Eton, our current Prime Minister went to Eton and 40% of all of our Prime Ministers did. A school with around 1300 students at any time. Most of the rest went to equally prestigious and expensive schools.
Our financial sector is a complete hive of scum and villainy, but again we don't care. We even go so far sometimes as point the finger at Switzerland, Luxembourg and even the Cayman's for dodgy financial practices, but we're in ways much worse. You can't pay more than a few grand into your bank current account in the UK without being asked where it came from, but if you're a War Lord or Drug Producer with hundreds of millions, we'll take it, no questioned asked.
If you're in business and you give a gift to a client you have to complete a Bribery Act Risk Assessment, but if your the chancellor and you want to sell off the Royal Mail to an old friend as a deal that gave no benefit to the tax payer, no one cares, todays PPE back-hander is the new Iraq Oil contract, or security contract, or Bank Bail out.
A fish rots from the head down?
In any case, yes, it's this sense of it getting much worse. Her Majesty's government has always suffered from corruption, in fact, most of it was institutionalised, so in many ways hidden in plain sight. What feels different now is just how blatant it is. It's feels much more like the level of corruption you'd see in 'developing' countries.
"If we were to ask which country is the most corrupt in the world, the first answer to come to mind would be dictated by the perceived level of corruption. Perhaps one might think of Mexico, of South American countries, of African countries, of the Middle East or Italy. But the most corrupt is the UK."
Roberto Saviano
This is worth a read...
Just pick any two random wrong'uns from the world of politics, finance, business, media etc, etc and they'll somehow be connected ie: went to Eton and Oxbridge together, a former business partner of... worked as an advisor too... is married to the sister of...
The upper echelons of British society is a completely closed shop and is totally corrupt. What they've done though is very clever. They've totally normalised their corruption so that it's not even seen as corruption any more
Yes, we’re easily the most corrupt country in Europe, if not the whole of the developed World
Italy?
Also for 'rest of the world', Trump's doing a decent job of catapulting the US well ahead of the pack. Multi-trillion dollar payouts with virtually no oversight takes some beating.
In the daily scheme of things, not really. We're not a country of shakedowns and bribes, as a rule.
On the political end, absolutely, and the current lot don't even bother to hide it
And in our financial industry, we're one of the absolute worst.
So it kind of depends on how you view it I think.
It’s getting worse, in the olden days if you got caught with your fingers in the till you’d have to resign to a nonexec director position somewhere, these days we’ve imported the Putin model of just denying it and carrying on. Post Brexit that’s not going to improve.
This, very much.
It’s the top where the damage is being done, it’s not endemic in daily life like a lot of countries (yet)
And this.
A fish rots from the head down?
It is difficult for corruption to corrupt an otherwise clean system upwards. It has happened, Colombia with the cartels being the best example (although there was a degree of 'traditional' corruption in place at the top prior).
We're actually not that corrupt. 12th best in the world, according to Transparency International:
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2019/results/table
France, Spain and Italy are far worse within "old Europe".
Yes and it's getting worse. The brazen attitudes of Cummings in "just ride it out, it'll blow over" with things like Robert Jenrick a) keeping his job and b) now deciding on planning rules, and the PPE contract, are making it worse. There's no longer any accountability for this kind of behaviour, and I think that more than anything indicates corruption.
Russia is most corrupt.
You think Jeff Bezos is world's richest person?
Wrong.
It's Putin
They will only get away with it if the voters don't care.
How many of us have written to your MP's about Pestfix, Prospermill and the other procurement scandals that are now coming to light? How many assiduously read the local newspapers and give your councillors stick? How many would notice if anyone in that system did make a stand?
As per usual, we get the politicians we deserve and things will only get worse if we let them.
Sadly the vast majority of the population either doesn't care or is so cynical that as far as they're concerned 'they're all at it, etc etc' which is basically an excuse for inaction whilst making yourself feel clever.
In my experience most elected officials love to hear from 'normal' people because usually they just get the same dozen or so local nutters who call them daily about Bringing back hanging/UFO's/The Illuminati.
Putin has deadlier rockets too! 🙂
It's laughable that people actually think we are the most corrupt Country in Europe.
In fact, we are one of the least corrupt countries in the World.
Have you ever done business in Italy? That's something pretty shocking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
However, with the current bunch we have in charge, we could quickly slide down that table.
So you've only just come to this conclusion op!!!?
Blimey!
Maybe its corrupt to some degree, I suppose old money holds much of the power in every country. However the widespread endemic corruption I saw in Spain growing up I have not seen here. During the late 200 and early 2010 corruption cases were popping up left and right, strange was the day were a new corruption case was not being discussed or new information on a current corruption case came to light.
gobuchul
MemberIt’s laughable that people actually think we are the most corrupt Country in Europe.
In fact, we are one of the least corrupt countries in the World.
Have you ever done business in Italy? That’s something pretty shocking.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
OK, like I said it depends on where you're looking- that sort of day to day corruption is very obvious and in your face. Whereas the sort of corruption that passes hundreds of millions of quid to companies with no assets so that they can fail to deliver essential PPE that results not just in them making a fortune at taxpayer's expense but directly in the deaths of NHS staff and patients, that's harder to perceive than putting a £50 in your passport but it's not better.
There are two types of corruption being discussed which is whay the differnce of opinion. Yes we have almost no petty graft of mid or low rank public officials needing to be paid off. But Westminster especially but not exclusively the tories is incredibly corrupt. almost all the tory MPs are being paid by multiple businesses to promote the needs of those businesses. Also the fact that tory party donors get their needs meet.
On that type of corruption we are one of the worst in the world
We are also the world centre for money laundering and tax avoidance / evasion which is in itself a form of corruption - expecially when MPs are in it right up to their necks. Rees Mogg runs a tax evasion company. David Camerons family fortune is based entirely of Tax evasion - hence we have some of the laxest laws i the world on tax evasion
these days we’ve imported the Putin model of just denying it and carrying on. Post Brexit that’s not going to improve.
Indeed. What it is very convenient for the 'government' to do is portray all red tape as bad. Not necessarily the case. If you delved a bit further back behind each law or requirement you discover the particular bit of malpractice it was created in order to stop. In 99.99% of cases I would reckon it was something along the lines of "to stop profiteering at the expense of safety/competition/environmental damage etc".
This government's bonfire of red tape is just a trojan horse for a race to the bottom. A race they are going to choose to initiate with a No Deal on 31/12/20.
There's an assumption here that capitalism, the exploitation of labour by the owners and controllers of capital, can be made honest, squeaky clean and bereft of corruption. Quite a novel idea really.
TJ - banking system I agree UK is a world leader there
Politicians? Our boys are just dipping their grubby little toes in the water compared to most other countries, southern Europe included. All other countries have elites and privilege too, very few places are good at social mobility. Not saying the UK is good just don't underestimate the global reach of avarice.
People get all hissy on here if you suggest you want to pay your plumber in cash! 🙂
So we're probably not that corrupt.
Acoba.
I do believe it is. And so does George Monbiot
On that type of corruption we are one of the worst in the world
Based on the methodology they post, the CPI is more focused on the sort of corruption you are referring to, particularly on 'Political integrity' and 'dirty money' and I'd trust their assessment over individuals perceptions.
So the UK isn't close to one of the worst in the world.
Doesn't mean things aren't getting worse, or that there's not a lot of work to do to get better.
So we’re probably not that corrupt.
It's simple... the people of the UK, in my experience, are pretty much free of corruption... and I would include civil servants in that... where as the corruption of the team now at the heart of the UK government are gangsters and spiffs working in the interests of their paymasters and business parters, and they don't even seem to feel the need to hide their corruption... it's rubbed in our faces.
So the UK isn’t close to one of the worst in the world.
Based on data collected before this "government" got its "do what we like" majority?
The point is in Westminster the corruption is legal. Its not " dirty money" Its tiotally legal to hire an MP as a consultant on a million quid a year, give them no work to do and then wait for the laws favourable to you to roll in. Thats why it does not appear in corruption lists - its been legalised
And so does George Monbiot
Yeah, but would you trust a man with those sideburns?! 😀
dannyh
SubscriberIndeed. What it is very convenient for the ‘government’ to do is portray all red tape as bad.
While creating tons of new red tape for imports and exports and travel, of course
A corrupt country? Jury's out for me.
A corrupt government? Worst I'm aware of since I came into the world in late '73.
There's a balance to be struck. If the government had put PPE procurement out to a 3 year tender process and then awarded the contract to BAE Systems for delivery in 2026 at 1000x the price of Bob on the market would the taxpayer have got better value for money? Would The Guardian be moaning - yes? BAE Systems would definitely spin up a new Ltd company with no other turnover to do the work.
In your personal life you might well hire a builder because you know them from the pub or you went to school with them and so are confident they'd do a good job. It's not necessarily a bad thing, our trust is so low we instinctively assume the worst.
I'm just worried we're turning into a culture where it's more important to be seen to do the right thing than to actually do the right thing.
While creating tons of new red tape for imports and exports and travel, of course
A price worth paying, obviously.
Where you have people you will have corruption of one kind or another
Depress yourself with the slightly tin foil hat www.recusant-nine.com
For the Rossendale dwellers the £10million "empty homes" scandal and the Futures Park clean up that wasn't etc etc
The point is in Westminster the corruption is legal. Its not ” dirty money” Its tiotally legal to hire an MP as a consultant on a million quid a year, give them no work to do and then wait for the laws favourable to you to roll in. Thats why it does not appear in corruption lists – its been legalised
Good job hollyrood is a shining beacon of hope supported by Scottish local government exceptional track record
its hugely depressing. For years the public have been more concerned that Labour are too controlled by the unions than they are that the conservatives are controlled by business interests. Those who fund the party get to have the most say.
But none of this is really a surprise and the public voted the way the media steered them.
I’m just worried we’re turning into a culture where it’s more important to be seen to do the right thing than to actually do the right thing.
Er... so paying millions to shell companies owned by your mates to not deliver anything... leaving people at risk for months... is that doing the right thing...? Taking millions of pounds from property developers, and then proposing the law be changed so that the little people can't challenge them... is that doing the right thing? Elevating your brother and your financial backers to the house of Lords... is that doing the right thing?
A late friend, a very bright socialist who happened to have two little building companies west of London, a pub in the west of Ireland as well as being an academic writer. I asked him about any corruption in planning etc. He said there was an envelope with £500 (1990s) that never stopped going round. He said the only time someone refused it he'd wished the ground had opened up beneath him. The costs just got passed onto the consumer. Only anecdotal but I took it seriously coming from him.
Very corrupt from the subtler use of the old boy network and establishment doing favours for each other to the other more blatant end of party funding and cushy jobs for ex ministers.
It goes back decades if not longer it’s just becoming more blatant and even more consequence free of caught such as the recent planning permission case well as the ones highlighted by the op
The Transparency International Corruption Index has us at no. 12, out of 180, so really not that bad.
If you've ever lived in, or done business in countries towards the bottom of the index, you'll understand that we do very well.
Big things in our favour are a free press, so all the examples of corruption cited above are actually in the public domain. Corruption here can't be that bad, or the journalists would be dead. Like they are in Russia.
Other huge thing is the rule of law. The government don't hire the judges. They were successfully challenged over their decision to prorogue Parliament. They lost. The Jenrick planning decision was challenged and upheld, so he's been 'caught' and forced to a. change the decision and b. explain his actions to Parliament (and the press).
There's also a free and fair electoral system in the UK. There are limitations, but corruption is definitely not one. So we're pretty good there too. If people don't like the actions of politicians, you can vote freely. Try doing that in Libya at the moment.
In short, there will be a vote in a few years time and politicians will be accountable for their actions:
- in the press
- at the ballot box
In the meantime, they're still accountable to an independent judiciary.
And maybe the actions of their unelected advisors will affect the vote too.
The problem is that the electorate see all this and still choose what they choose. That's not corruption though.
And finally, to really play devil's advocate. During a national health emergency, faced with the fatal consequences of a lack of PPE, do you:
A) Follow the approved Government procurement process, using full due diligence and open tendering, scheduled to last several weeks at best, and by the time it's finished the 'winner' may not have any PPE anyway
Or
B) Take up the offer from an old school mate who may or may not be able to help, but seems to know what he is talking about and could have some gear with you in a week at not much over market value?
In the circumstances. is Option B really that bad? It may not turn up, it may be over-priced and it may be crap, but at least it's trying something. The rush for PPE was an appalling situation, but definitely needed addressing urgently.
Basically, the view of corruption seems to come down on whether you see things as glass half empty or full.
Not sure I can be bothered to detail C, D & E for your strawman. Someone else can.
Ah, sod it…
C) reply to the UK companies already providing PPE that are offering to ramp up at speed
D) accept the offer of at scale Europe wide procurement from the EU
Someone else can do more if they want… I’m off on the bike now…
I’ve spent the last 30 years doing business with companies in just about every country I can think of. I know we love to whinge and complain. But compared to the vast majority of those countries the uk is squeaky clean. Ultra clean. But of course, there are exceptions. I don’t think there is such a place as a country without corruption.
ajaj, you wrote...
There’s a balance to be struck. If the government had put PPE procurement out to a 3 year tender process and then awarded the contract to BAE Systems for delivery in 2026 at 1000x the price of Bob on the market would the taxpayer have got better value for money? Would The Guardian be moaning – yes? BAE Systems would definitely spin up a new Ltd company with no other turnover to do the work.
A proper public sector tender process with multi million £ value would typically take c6 months.
Given the circumstances, no-one is suggesting the requirements should have been tendered in an OJEU compliant process but...
Contracts awarded without competition – based on ’emergency procurement’ argument; fair enough.
Contracts awarded to companies with no experience and contacts with Tory party – stinks of corruption.
Ooh look, an opportunity to rip-off the taxpayer; I’ve got no experience of what’s required but that’s no problem.
and
In an emergency you would always look to someone who knows what they’re doing so using proven suppliers would have been the default choice – known quantity, relevant expertise, logistics and payment terms in place.
That didn’t happen; there were conscious – and probably, guided – decisions on contract awards.
I’m amazed there haven’t been any challenges under the procurement regs from other ‘economic operators’ unless they’re scared off by the possibility of being excluded from future tenders or having existing contracts terminated; illegal under the regs but where there’s a will…I’ve sourced from China and it’s likely that contracts would require 25 – 30% upfront with the balance to be paid at time of shipping; this provides little or no redress in event of short delivery or faulty goods.
I would be surprised if escrow a/cs were used or if the companies involved in this used procurement agents on the ground in China.
But compared to the vast majority of those countries the uk is squeaky clean
Apart from being one of the main centres for money laundering for thieving dictators/oligarchs/organised crime you mean?
In the circumstances. is Option B really that bad? It may not turn up, it may be over-priced and it may be crap, but at least it’s trying something. The rush for PPE was an appalling situation, but definitely needed addressing urgently
Sounds like a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome. Listen to yourself. Why was there such a rush for PPE btw?
Did you watch War Dogs? The kids did deliver haha.
Have worked over many countries. The UK is a paradise to do business in compared to most of the EU / US. Don't even have to travel to third world to experience pain. Try Japan for a laugh!
its hugely depressing. For years the public have been more concerned that Labour are too controlled by the unions than they are that the conservatives are controlled by business interests. Those who fund the party get to have the most say.
Ha, I never thought of it like this. Absolutely hit the nail there.
Blackflag
SubscriberFor years the public have been more concerned that Labour are too controlled by the unions than they are that the conservatives are controlled by business interests.
Yup. Miliband's greatest failing- when Cameron kept throwing "you're funded by the unions" he said "I know, isn't it terrible" instead of "Aye, we're funded by normal working people, and proud of it. You're bought and paid for by millionaires and hedge funds, and you give them peerages for it"
From the article faerie linked on the previous page
Saviano said that there was a hidden danger of voting to leave the European Union that was little discussed. He said if the UK left the EU, it would undermine joint attempts to fight illegal economies
Yes, but it wasn't hidden so far as I understood, it's why the ERG were so keen to leave and funded a campaign to convince the voters.
andreweay,
What you've just written is perhaps the best apology for corruption I've ever seen.
Wether the country is corrupt is one thing. What's for sure is this Gov't is the most corrupt we've had in my 50 years and getting more blatantly corrupt by the day.
Internationally, Post Brexit Britain will be seen as a corrupt country, irrespective of how uncorrupt the country is as a whole. This Gov't however is exceptionally corrupt and that's their brand, it is the image they have painted on the plane and its going to tarnish us all.
While creating tons of new red tape for imports and exports and travel, of course
Incidentally, of course, all this new (and totally unnecessary) red tape will create lots of opportunities for spivs go-ahead chaps to set up 'consultancies' to guide existing SMEs through said red tape.
The city and:
https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/tax-havens-for-millionaires-around-the-world-2019-11
I think there are a few people (P-Jay) confusing a SEVERE lack of social mobility with corruption. we don't have social mobilty, and i reckon its getting worse at the moment, and tht is very VERY bad, however tht is a different issue to corruption imv. we don't have an accepted system of patronage, or baksesh, yes it happens but it isn't an accepted cultural thing. which makes it feel worse but it does happen a LOT less here I think.
but it does happen a LOT less here I think
Than where?
At the level I live and work at we are a long way off most of the places I lived in the Caribbean.
At a level where I suffer the consequences of misdeeds way above me then **** yeah.
Than where?
Plenty of places. Russia for a good start. Got a mate in Malaysia, nothing gets done without a bribe there. I know you like to shit on this country as often as possible but at least try to get some perspective. Old boy networks are nothing special, look at Ivy League US, exactly the same. We may be many a thing but most corrupt country in the world we are not, and I'd take the word of someone objectively indexing corruption over a hysterical [s]journalist[/s] opinion writer.