[Closed] Is the UK a Christian Country?

Nick - an the good Samaritan was not a Christian. Your thesis that the moral requirement to help others is a Christian creation is obviously false on man grounds.

Its also really offensive

Yes and it was the Jews who Jesus lectured to about the Good Samaritan

I don't do this often, but, ZOMFG. The Good Samaritan in the story was, surprisingly enough, a Samaritan- which is yet another pre-christian abrahamic religion which espouses being excellent to each other.

"The Persians,Eygptians,Greeks and Romans never helped you out if you got a puncture
Oh and they all also had slaves..."

The Christians of the confederate states of America also had slaves. So the presence or absence of slaves is nothing to do with Christianity.

Elfinsafety - Member

you cannot believe in the absence of something.

If someone presents you with an empty tray, and sez 'do you believe there are any pies on this tray?', you can of course answer 'No' and be right.

If someone presents you with an empty tray, and sez 'do you believe there are no pies on this tray?', you can of course say 'Yes' and also be right.

I do not need to believe in the absence of pies - there is a reality there that can be seen

Yes NW and it was the Jews who Jesus (the Jew)lectured to about the Good Samaritan.

"Do you believe there are no gods" is not eh same as "do you think there are no gods"

I know there are no gods. Belief does not come into it.

Ok, so it is this idea of an absolute truth which is philosophically complicated. The idea that such things are absolute facts is something which we cannot reconcile.

So?

The Samaritan was good despite not being Christian. You thesis is disproven by the very story you try to use to prove it.

Ok fair enough too tired anyway don't agree with you re the whole 'God' thing though.

My tray of small pies is probbly about ready in the oven now. Shortly there shall exist no small pies. 🙂

You believe in God(s) Elf?

To be fair I doubt whether there's much more than just the 4 of you still reading this thread

I'd agree you had a point, but for that I come back to find another 50 posts by 10 different people (not including you, who presumably are also following this - that or stalking me 😯 )

I do not need to believe in the absence of pies - there is a reality there that can be seen

They might be microscopic pies or invisible pies or very well camouflaged pies. The idea that just because you cannot perceive them means that their non existence is a fact is a great conceit.

Pastryfarianism!

Oh and i am amused by the way you say 'easy' then fail to answer the questions directly.

I do sometimes wonder if TJ is a politician in training. Or maybe he's not one person, but a login to train up members of some political party in the art of pointless repetitive arguing.

TJ
I have not(knowingly at least) in this or any other thread claimed that mutual cooperation, man helping fellow man,is an exclusively Christian thing that Christians or even Jesus invented. Credit me with a modicum of intelligence please. There are many cultures throughout the world and throughout history who get along just fine without any knowledge whatsoever of Christianity.In fact many of them have been f88cked up and destroyed by missionary zealots in the name of Christ as various posters have said.

Aracer - once again the question asked had no meaningful answer. "Do I believe theeris no god" is meaningless. I do not believe in god. I have no belief about the absence of gods - I cannot as I do not believe in the concept of gods.

i believe there is no such thing as a flying spaghetti monster

Heathen

TandemJeremy - Member

So?

The Samaritan was good despite not being Christian. You thesis is disproven by the very story you try to use to prove it.

Precisely! He was neither a Jew nor a Christian(it hadn't been invented yet :-)) but he showed exactly what you have been banging on about,compassion for his fellow man as this was far more important than any religious ritual,tradition and dogma.It is the universal thing that binds us all together,morality ethics whatever.

I know there are no gods. Belief does not come into it.

Prove it.

I do not need to believe in the absence of pies

I do not need a tray.

I can kill you without a tray, with the power of the Force - which is strong within me - even though I could kill you with a tray if I so wished. For I would hack at your neck with the thin bit until the blood flowed across the canteen floor.

nick1962
Will you stop and help a fellow rider in trouble?
Yes?
That's one of the tenets of Christianity and I'm pretty sure that most people on here have an ethical belief and value system based on Christian principles. Forget about the church,fundamentalists, the Spanish inquisiton etc .Nearly 2,000 years ago Christians were one of the only voices in the West to espouse most of the values I hear put forward on this site daily and I'm not talking about single speed and what tyres.

That is pretty clearly saying that the moral code we live by is a Christian concept and this part especially

an ethical belief and value system based on Christian principles

Its not a Christian concept, it pre exisits Christianity. Christianity is not western concept

Aracer - once again the question asked had no meaningful answer. "Do I believe theeris no god" is meaningless.

I do not believe in god.

I have no belief about the absence of gods

No, you said you know there are no gods.

Given that such a thing is unknowable, By definition if you like. Then your 'knowledge' cannot be that.

nick1962
,compassion for his fellow man as this was far more important than any religious ritual,tradition and dogma.It is the universal thing that binds us all together,morality ethics whatever

Right - so now yo accpet it is not a christian concept. Now we are getting somewhere

Pastryfarianism!

nick1962 has cut out the middleman and is arguing with himself.

Carlie - right form the beginning I said I do not believe in god.

Yeah yeah yeah, now the other bits!

ernie_lynch - Member

I do not need to believe in the absence of pies

I do not need a tray.

I can kill you without a tray, with the power of the Force - which is strong within me - even though I could kill you with a tray if I so wished. For I would hack at your neck with the thin bit until the blood flowed across the canteen floor.

*salutes the master of the dark side*

It is the universal thing that binds us all together,morality ethics whatever.

Bollox is it. Morality is taught like everything else. You can be brought up to believe that attacking strangers and stealing from them is morally acceptable. It's actually probably very "natural" for our species. If we don't do that it's because we are taught that it's not acceptable. Religion has played a very big part in that. In fact the major part.

Cmon tj, you claim to know something which is unknowable. So what is it? Its belief isn't it

CharlieMungus - Member

Yeah yeah yeah, now the other bits

Answered several times

As I have no belief in Gods I cannot have any belief in there absence. they do not exist in my conciousness. I have no beliefs about gods at all. Tats what atheism is - a lack of belief in gods.

Its not unknowable to a rational person.

nick1962 has cut out the middleman and is arguing with himself.

Ernie - I would agree that Religions do teach morals - I have no issue with that. My issue is with claiming that a moral code was created by a religion.

Teh religions adopted existing morals. they did not create them

Answered several times

As I have no belief in Gods I cannot have any belief in there absence. they do not exist in my conciousness. I have no beliefs about gods at all. Tats what atheism is - a lack of belief in gods.

We've moved on, why do you keep repeating this bit?
You do not have a belief in their absence, you have knowledge about this, you say. And this is the point of contention, not whether or not you believe in god.

Its not unknowable to a rational person.

What if there was a god who got by on making sure that folks thought / knew he did not exist.

Its not unknowable to a rational person.

Prove it.

Teh religions adopted existing morals. they did not create them

None of them?

You cannot prove the absence of something - nice debating point tho. I'll call that do as you would be done by 😉 and I'll turn the other cheek.

Morality is taught like everything else.

You cannot prove the absence of something - nice debating point tho. I'll call that do as you would be done by and I'll turn the other cheek.

So what do you base your 'knowledge' on?

<deleted - making the same point as CM>

Teh religions adopted existing morals. they did not create them

You sound like an expert on this TJ, so tell me, what were these atheist societies from which religions adopted their moral codes ?

Name them please.

What if there was a god who got by on making sure that folks thought / knew he did not exist.

In the absence of any evidence for the existence of something the rational person concludes it does not exist

Some say that Jesus was a teacher...

Yeah yeah yeah ......and I suppose he read the Guardian 🙄

He was a builder/chippy ffs.

Ernie - people co operated all the way back thru history and into prehistory. Groups of people who cooperated survived better thus reproduced more. the ways of living that were found to be successful became our moral codes.

Son of a carpenter surely?

n the absence of any evidence for the existence of something the rational person concludes it does not exist

No seriously TJ, name me these religion-free societies which you are talking about, I'm interested. Maybe a link if you've got one ?

and I suppose he read the Guardian

Only the news, not the editorials.

So a rational person would not have believed in bacteria,cells atoms,viruses,morals even and God know what else(see what I did there?)

...the Higgs bosun (aka god particle)

Though TJ goes further than that - for him it's not a belief. In the absence of evidence, he knows these things don't exist.

Son of a carpenter surely?

A father always taught his son his own trade. JC made his own cross don't you know ?

Mutual cooperation existed on a family and tribal/clan/village level but it was commonplace to go over to the next village and ransack it,steal the women and kill the men.

FWIW I think TJ's walked into one of the tangles of the subject.

It's entirely possible that there are other layers of existance that we can't see or feel. Gods, space aliens, fairies, invisible pies, divergent parallel dimensions... But if they're unknowable, untouchable and ineffable why would I waste my time trying to know, touch or eff them? The rules are such that their existance or nonexistance is unprovable, but also unimportant.

The fact that something is unknowable doesn't mean you have to give it credence. It makes it sensible to just not worry about it.

Only the news, not the editorials.

The editorials in the Morning Star were a favourite. He always said first thing in the morning, "anyone seen the morning star?"

nick1962 - Member

Mutual cooperation existed on a family and tribal/clan/village level but it was commonplace to go over to the next village and ransack it,steal the women and kill the men.

Yup. But that stuff happened outwith christianity too, so I don't think we should blame it.

nick1962 - Member

Mutual cooperation existed on a family and tribal/clan/village level but it was commonplace to go over to the next village and ransack it,steal the women and kill the men.

Yup - pretty much the same as now.

The fact that something is unknowable doesn't mean you have to give it credence. It makes it sensible to just not worry about it.

You mean TJ?

It turns out that _faith_ is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And another thing: Christianity isn't just about being charitable to strangers. There's a bit more to it than that....

it was commonplace to go over to the next village and ransack it,steal the women and kill the men.

Yup - pretty much the same as now.

FFS come back down south TJ.

aracer - Member

So a rational person would not have believed in bacteria,cells atoms,viruses,morals even and God know what else(see what I did there?)

Nope = point missed - its not about belief. Its about knowledge. You cannot believe in the absence of something. Before the existence of bacteria was known about there was no concept of bacteria thus no one could have not believed in them.

I have no belief in God. there is no concept of god in my conciousness therefore to be asked " do you believe there is no god" is meaningless

You cannot believe in the absence of something

I believe I have a complete absence of faith that this thread is going anywhere useful anytime soon.

You cannot believe in the absence of something.

Thats for sure oldandpastit

We are definitely arguing about angels on pinheads now.

No debate about religion ever goes anywhere cos at the end of the day it comes down to faith. if you have faith in your religion that no rational debate can sway it and if you do not have the faith then it is unknowiable

You cannot believe in the absence of something.

Do you believe in this :

[img] [/img]

No one's seen it.....it's just a theory.

Some guys in Geneva might be interested in your opinion TJ....let them know.

Nick- you know that. No belief involved

You cannot believe in the absence of something.

I beleive the theory exists. I have no knowledge of it to judge it by and I neither believe or disbelieve in the Higgs boson.

ernie

That's what Jesus saw when he necked those magic mushrooms in the desert...oh but he called it the Devil

I beleive the theory exists.

Excellent ! Next you'll be telling me that you believe the theory of God exists!

I've a feeling this thread has run its course... But thanks for a good chat folks- especially CharlieMungus. Did not expect anything much out of this.

Nope = point missed - its not about belief. Its about knowledge. You cannot believe in the absence of something. Before the existence of bacteria was known about there was no concept of bacteria thus no one could have not believed in them.

Yet apparently you know there is no god. On what do you base that knowledge?

Feel free to ignore the question or claim it's meaningless. Such a claim won't make you look clever...

He was a builder/chippy ffs.

I reckon in between his seditionary antics and his religious cult he would have been able to knock out a good few tables and chairs. Wonder if any of them survived...

There are rumours of a cup...

...the Higgs bosun (aka god particle)

As an aside,

This is a false analogy. Scientists don't "believe" that there is a Higgs Boson particle. It's a theory. They're currently running tests to see if they can find it. There's no faith or belief involved.

In the absence of any evidence for the existence of something the rational person concludes it does not exist

Sure thats an entirely reasonable conclusion. But that is not the same as knowledge.

Vatican states certainly is not very christian

Hah! Classic!

Scientists don't "believe" that there is a Higgs Boson particle.

Ah, so little faith. You'll never find the Holy Grail if you lack faith you know. Helps to have faith when you go and splash out £2.5bn on a god-seeking tool too.

Srsly tj, i think scientific method gives that you can't know that there is no god. So you are lft with a cople of options, either like northwind you have no belief about the existence of god, or you believe he doesn't exist. Which is it?

Why is this so hard for you to answer? We always end up in these cul-de-sacs of argument as you refuse to shift from an off the cuff statement and continually evade direct questions

I am not evading direct questions. However we are in a philosophical / semantic corner.

I have no belief about god. In the absence of any evidence the only logical position to take is that there is no god. There is no belief in the matter.

Aracer - I base that knowledge on the absence of any evidence however as above its a logical / semantic / philosophical corner and it can be argued that that its not knowledge but a rational conclusion. My point is that it is not a belief.

konabunny - Member

Vatican states certainly is not very christian

Hah! Classic!

Well it doesn't act in a very Christian way does it? From denial and cover up of child abuse to accumulation of great wealth to theresponsibility for many deaths

I do not need a tray.

I can kill you without a tray, with the power of the Force - which is strong within me - even though I could kill you with a tray if I so wished. For I would hack at your neck with the thin bit until the blood flowed across the canteen floor.

No the food is hot, you'll need a tray to put the food on.

I have no belief about god. In the absence of any evidence the only logical position to take is that there is no god. There is no belief in the matter.

Good sensible answer.

The problem is that rather annoyingly, faith works the other way around, which of course means that this thread will keep going round in circles forever.

If _I_ was god, I would make sure there was plenty of good hard scientific evidence around so that people like TJ would not be in any doubt as to my existence.