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Scotroutes - that would be invalidating the offended persons experience and would lead IMO to further rancor. Effectively you are telling him he is wrong. Now he may well be wrong - but to tell him he is is not helpful.
My way validates his experience and asks for help in understanding that experience. Its not an admission of guilt or accepting the term is racist. Its a way of seeking a solution that leads both sides to be happy.
superficially the two statements look similar but emotionally very far apart
Now he may well be wrong – but to tell him he is is not helpful.
It might be very helpful in helping him not be wrong again.
It might be very helpful in helping him not be wrong again.
Yeah but I don't think you can realistically lecture him on it. Some things are just never going to end well.
Astonishingly, TJ is right also 😉
Yeah, of course, insert the word ‘most’ or ‘many’ in there. My fingers get tired eventually.
I interestingly enough. You haven’t actually apologised there. 😜
scotroutes
Member
Now he may well be wrong – but to tell him he is is not helpful.It might be very helpful in helping him not be wrong again.
+1 (i also said this earlier 😉 )
So do we know if the OP has been hauled over the coals by HR for the comment or not?
I was looking at this from a conflict resolution point of view - not about proving who was right and who was wrong nor a points scoring exercise.
My line does no mean the op admitting he was wrong, does not mean the other person admitting they were wrong. Its simply a way of resolving conflict.
something like this its not helpful if you want to defuse conflict to make any side admit they were wrong as its a matter of subjective opinion not fact.
Maybe this is an Aspie brain thing and just me being weird, but I’m not in the habit of apologising for things I haven’t done or aren’t my fault. An insincere apology isn’t an apology at all, it’s an attempt to appease someone.
Ah, the non-apology apology. Often used by Politicians and C suite types.
You can spot those who have taken the insincere admission of regret comms course easily. If it starts with a conditional, if it uses the word apology, regret, but never an admission of deliberateness or sorry.
Real people say sorry. People trained in PR say apologies. They are different things.
I say “excuse me” in that situation rather than “sorry.” It achieves the same result without an implicit admission of being at fault.
Although that implies you have done something for which you should be excused... which is in itself an admission of erring.
I may be playing devil’s slight advocate but I’m certain,y not trolling.
A few conflicting claims and quotes from this thread:
Once you infuse Jungle Drums with racist connotations it becomes racist regardless of the context.
Except, no-one (or at least, hardly anyone) seems to have done that.
Now contrast that with BruceWee’s ‘explanations’
There are two explanations for why this person took offense. The first is that Jungle Drums has been adopted by racists and they are now using it to insult black people.
The second is that it’s a phrase that has fallen so far out of common usage that this person had never heard it before. Jungle has many racist connotations thanks to racists so he may have assumed it was a racist term.
It seems that I actually agree with BruceWee here inasmuch as they are two possible explanations. Without further inout from the offended party it’s all very much conjecture and a descended into assumption, generalising and stereotyping. Along with some non-too-subtle calls for wearing the collective mantle of ‘white-guilt’.
I really don’t see how that helps. Also
This is part of the problem. White people going ‘there’s no problem with this thing I know nothing about’ and ignoring black people when trying to point out that there is.
Contrasting with
Used in my family to imply hearing it from someone else, just like on the grapevine. Ran it past my non-white fiance and got a wtf are they on about response.
My ultimate favourite was someone googling it and finding it to be crypto-racially defined in Urban Dictionary, and then using that as key evidence of meaning. We really are all ****ed at that point.
Although that implies you have done something for which you should be excused… which is in itself an admission of erring.
One may infer that if they like but I didn't imply it. Because alternatively, "excuse me" is also Polite for "would you mind awfully getting the **** out of my way." Which is nice.
And "sorry" is polite English for "watch where you're going you dozy ****" when someone bumps into you.
Do you think you're gonna get sued if you admit liability or something?
Once you infuse Jungle Drums with racist connotations it becomes racist regardless of the context.
I think the issue I have here is the notion that if one person thinks something is offensive, it's automatically offensive across the board. Which is the sort of woolly thinking that leads to "Muslims want to ban Christmas" headlines every year because one junior councillor over at Scarfolk Borough Council thought it was a good idea to say "Winter Celebrations" instead.
There's too many reactionary idiots just spoiling for a fight, but they simply aren't representative of their demographic and shouldn't be held as so. It's not just regarding race either, you see the same swivel-eyed vitriol coming from certain TERFy corners of the feminist movement and plenty of other places too. They're about as far removed from reality as ISIS is from the guy who works in my local kebab shop.
Back when I was at school, we were once queuing in the pissing rain to get back into school after lunch. Two Asian lads walked straight past a line of like most of the school and tried to go in. They got turned away, and as they came back past me near the front of the queue I overheard one say to the other "huh, Miss is racist." Would the correct response here have been to go "terribly sorry lads, we'd no idea, in you go in front of everyone else"?
It is absolutely critical to robustly challenge racism (along with any other -isms). But that doesn't mean that we should kowtow to accusations of -isms where none exist, because that causes more problems than it solves.
Do you think you’re gonna get sued if you admit liability or something?
I've spoken before about my relationship with bullies, I'm just damned if I'm going to be a doormat.
Your last paragraph in your first post pretty much sums it up for me Cougar. In fact the whole post pretty much aligns with my point of view.
I don’t know whether it is because of social media that you hear about things more, but it does seem sometimes there are people hanging around just waiting to be offended by something. Throwing accusations around left right and centre actually does more harm than good.
There was a (now banned I think) poster on here who would actively try and find racism where it simply didn’t exist. That’s a damaging mindset for all involved and is never going to end well.
There was a (now banned I think) poster on here who would actively try and find racism where it simply didn’t exist.
I can't remember now whether she was banned or left of her own volition in the end. I think she might well have been banned but can't be sure without checking back.
Funny thing with that: she launched a vendetta against me on here along with a parallel smear campaign on social media. When I eventually convinced her that she'd got the wrong end of the stick - I'd ill-conceivedly used provocative language to try to demonstrate just how offensive someone else was being with their choice of words - she agreed and apologised to me via forum PM whilst still going on a public tirade over on Twitter and CC:ing in half the Western world.
This thread is now 4th Google result for ‘is the term jungle drums racist?’. The other three IIRC are all from one unsettled dispute back in 2011.
I may have to submit a competing definition at Urban Dictionary. Try and get it to top result. Something like:
Jungle Drums - A self-referencing dispute over wether or not it is ‘racist’ to dispute the ongoing dispute of the term ‘jungle drums’
Person 1; ‘I heard it on the jungle drums that the term ‘jungle drums’ is racist?
Person2: ‘Now say that you’re sorry’.
(filer à l’anglaise)
Person 3: (Googles - ‘is the term jungle drums racist?’)
... Thinking about it I'm pretty sure she was banned, because I seem to remember her posting about it on Twitter as another example of how we were all screaming racists picking on her as a minority, or trying to silence her or something.
I interestingly enough. You haven’t actually apologised there.
Bugger off 🙂
I seem to remember her posting about it on Twitter as another example of how we were all screaming racists picking on her as a minority, or trying to silence her or something.
It seemed like she had been through a lot of bad shit and her coping mechanism was lashing out. Felt very sorry for her to be honest.
Went into work this morning and first thing I done was see if he was around so I could have a chat with the guy. He was at one of the other depots though so done the next best thing and gave him a call. He never answered so I left a message saying I'd try him nearer lunchtime or if he could text me when he was available we could try and meet up later. Got no response so gave him another call later on. He answered this time and I tried explaining that if I upset him either with my comment, subsequent response or both then I was sorry, meant no harm or disrespect, and that I'd be happy to discuss further if he wanted to. He didn't want to get into it. He informed me he had spoken to HR helpline that morning and logged a complaint against me of racist behaviour. I said ok, probably inappropriate for me to be speaking to you now then, let's see how the process unfolds but happy to meet you anytime along with a third party if you want to resolve without going down formal route. He declined.
Late in the afternoon I received a call from my manager, he had been informed by HR of a complaint against me and that an initial fact finding investigation is to take place. The person nominated to carry out investigation will be in touch and send me the relevent details including the process/procedure this falls under. We discussed in detail what happened and whilst he wasn't totally dismissive he told me not to lose any sleep over it and just cooperate with the investigation.
Was the talk of the depot all day which was a bit akward and I received a few calls of support from a couple of the other depots who had heard what happened. Although I fully admit I'm pissed off with the guy for going straight down the HR route he was getting a fair bit of stick in his absence which I did put a stop to so hope doesn't turn nasty and resurface again tomorrow.
Anyway, I got plenty volunteers without even asking who were witness to the incident yesterday and who are willing to speak to the investigator to say they couldn't see anything wrong with what I said and the guy severely over reacted. Will see what happens now with HR.
I'm quite a cluedo player to be fair so I can see things others miss.
It was clearly racist, the op knew full well that the offended chap was the whistle blower on his big deal, he then eye balled him and stated 'jungle drums beat me to it'
Dissscusting.
Polite notice for his boss when he finds this thread- I made that up chief, no offense intended or implied so don't expect an apology
Where there’s blame there’s a claim!
Fair play to you for trying to apologise but from the sound of it he's going to have a worse time of it than you are. Sounds like your colleagues are closing ranks and you will get all the back up you need.
It also sounds like he's going to get ostracised and screwed over every chance anyone gets.
hauled over the coals
Can we still say that?
Sorry to hear that OP. My take? Poor bastards. Both of you. Whole thing is a shitshow. Shame we get no context at all from the offended.
There's always two sides to every story and we're only getting one, but it sounds from that like he's just a dick.
And sadly for him, it also sounds like it's likely to backfire massively for him.
Word of warning OP - google the term 'Jungle Drums Racist' and this thread is the first hit at the top of page one. If I was in HR and wanted an idea if the phrase used was racist I'd be googling (if they are white; if black they would obviously know innately apparently). I don't think you have said anything particularly negative nor have you named either the other party or the company but can't imagine they will be massively happy.
An aside - if the phase was clearly up there as clearly a wrongun I can't imagine a bunch of 80 odd sad sacks discussing it for 24 hours on a forum would make the worldwide top google hit quite so quickly.
Thanks for the warning. Never even considered the google effect, I did google it yesterday to see if there were many examples. I suspect quite few of my colleagues will have done the same today. I won't add any more to the thread.
Google knows you visit here. So it returns more results from here to you.
she agreed and apologised to me via forum PM
Are you sure it was an apology because she posted what was definitely a non-apology apology on social media. Also an I agree with your decision which was definitely not an I agree with your decision.
It sounds rather extreme to me tbh. Just as you need to understand his position, he needs to understand yours. The HR route seems harsh.
Are you sure it was an apology because she posted what was definitely a non-apology apology on social media. Also an I agree with your decision which was definitely not an I agree with your decision.
It was as close as he was going to get. Some posters you can just smell the crazy.
She was one.
Are you sure it was an apology
This is what she said to me via PM. It seemed pretty unambiguous to me:
I’d like to apologise to you directly for the way in which I initially reacted to your post, I used foul and threatening language to make a standpoint and had I understood the perspective I’d have been a lot more respectful in my request to redact the word.
I’d also like to give you recognition and kudos for making an extremely poignant observation which has had such a positive outcome, you’ve made a wee corner of the (singletrack) world a better place.
Kind regards
... and then she continued to selectively quote C&P'ed screenshots out-of-context onto Twitter cc:ing in the likes of CRC, Wiggle, Road.cc and whoever else in the industry she could think of going "is this the sort of place you want to be associated with?"
As funkmasterp said, it seemed like she had a lot of unfortunate history and as I discussed with him directly at the time I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But she went too far I'm afraid.
Ok
Union rep hat on
This is not a dismissal issue by a long way. At worst its a first warning and a fair outcome would be informal warning and counselling ie " be careful with your language, learn from this, end of story with a note on file
Note to self ;
never join tj's union.
Google knows you visit here. So it returns more results from here to you.
True. With Personalization turned off it drops to number 3.
A formal complaint has been made. Process will then be followed. There will be an investigation as to whether the OP has acted improperly (and I would argue that he hasn't simply because even if the phrase is in fact deemed to be problematic, he used it totally innocently in ignorance of that) and it'll either be acted upon accordingly or dropped. In the case of the latter I can't see why any sort of warning would be appropriate.
Sorry - i was trying to be supportive of the OP stating I think it highly unlikely anything serious will come of it. Informal warning and counselling means diddly squat. Its just a way of the employer protecting themselves because if further incidents come to light they can be seen to have taken action and further action is easy to take
If I was his union rep I would of course be arguing for no action at all and could build a strong case
What do unions do when both the perpetrator and the victim are members? They can't advocate for both sides?
What do unions do when both the perpetrator and the victim are members? They can’t advocate for both sides?
Only the accused requires representation , the complainants case is handled by the company / organisation itself
HR and Social Responsibility/Impact teams almost exclusively run and staffed by white middle class women.
Hope they go easy on you.
Came in for the drum and bass thread, left via the back door of The Bullingdon.
Taken aback by how much self entitlement and arrogance seeps out of the wood-work after people have had a couple of drinks.
Well done to the OP for going to significant lengths to reach out to the guy to apologize/discuss
He informed me he had spoken to HR helpline that morning and logged a complaint against me of racist behaviour
This, frankly, boils my piss.
Accidentally using a well known phrase (in context) that some consider to have racist undertones is categorically not "racist behavior". At worst, it's being ignorant that a (relatively) well known phrase, even when used in a non-racist context, might be viewed as racist. Obviously it depends on the language in question and the context - some language/context is unequivocally racist, but this (as we have proved here) certainly isn't.
Would be different if his complaint had been about overhearing somebody using "racist language" in the workplace - which is what we have all been arguing about discussing on here.
a fair outcome would be informal warning and counselling ie ” be careful with your language, learn from this, end of story with a note on file
I agree that this would be fair. However, I would also hope that the complainant would receive a similar counselling, warning of the dangers of unfairly labeling colleagues as racists.
This thread took an unexpected turn with the OP's update; at face value, the complainant is on weak ground so I hope the OP has not been economical with the truth.
Based on the way he/she has commented I think he/she has been transparent.
I really hope the complaint is thrown out quickly as it doesn't appear to have any merit or substance.
Was tempted to join the debate but, other than a single comment that using the terminology wasn't racist, I've watched from the sidelines; I think several posters should re-read what they posted and have a word with themselves.
Hope HR aren't right-on, woke or whatever other epithet is attached to those gone overboard on being PC and empathetic (suggest we drop the first two letters).
Waits for criticism for being non-PC, white/male/stale etc.
Good luck OP.