[Closed] Is the term 'jungle drums' racist?

do you think he’s been lynched?

that’s kind of irrelevant because that’s not the context in which the OP was using it

We only have his word on that, he has painted a picture of child like innocence, made himself out as a victim of a "PC gone mad world" while labelling the other party as a professionally offended trouble maker.

I doubt that is really the way it went down, it is possible, but not that plausible. I expect there was more to it than that and that the OP is just fishing for justification and support without revealing the whole story.

Once you infuse Jungle Drums with racist connotations it becomes racist regardless of the context.

Except, no-one (or at least, hardly anyone) seems to have done that.

The P-word you're talking about is bizarre. I find it incredible that it's considered racist when by its very definition it's simply descriptive, like saying Scot or Pole*. When I was at school the local corner shop was known as the "**** shop" and no-one thought twice about it, it was a shop run by an Asian gentleman and there were no negative connotations implied, it was as innocent as saying "Chinese takeaway". Yet it's become inherently racist today simply because it's been used so often by racists that it's lost any other meaning.

So what I'm trying to say here I think is, you can't directly equate the two. The contraction of ****stani is so widely considered to be a racist term that only a racist (or someone breathtakingly ignorant) would ever use it these days. Whereas "jungle drums" simply does not have that status.

(* - actually, is that considered pejorative these days too or is that OK?)

Not have a cock fight about who’s right.

Did Molgrips just assume hodgynd's gender?

Except, no-one (or at least, hardly anyone) seems to have done that.

The point I made is that the inhabitants of the forum would be absolutely the last ones to know if it was developing racist connotations.

The first people to know a word is developing racist connotations are the racists who use it to abuse minorities.

The second are the minorities on the receiving end.

The last people to know are nice middle class types who hang around on mountain biking forums. Therefore it is ridiculously arrogant for 99% of the people who post here to tell a minority to 'Get over it'.

For how many years were racists using **** as a racist term while nice white middle class types said, 'But it's obviously not racist. Am I racist for calling someone a Scot? Of course not!'

The contraction of ****stani is so widely considered to be a racist term that only a racist (or someone breathtakingly ignorant) would ever use it these days.

Nobody is saying people who use the term Jungle Drums are ignorant. What is ignorant is to assume that you are any kind of authority on what is and isn't racist. If a minority tells you something you said is racist then just apologise. You might learn why the other party took offense. It might even turn out they were mistaken.

What you don't ever say is, 'Sorry you took offense but there is nothing to be offended about.'

They are far more likely to be an expert on the subject than you are.

You're perhaps too young to remember "blood on the streets" and ****-bashing, Cougar. Skin head ****-bashers were a real thing in the Birmingham of my youth. Bad times and the word **** is now justifiably seen as highly racist.

The P-word you’re talking about is bizarre. I find it incredible that it’s considered racist when by its very definition it’s simply descriptive, like saying Scot or Pole*. When I was at school the local corner shop was known as the “**** shop” and no-one thought twice about it, it was a shop run by an Asian gentleman and there were no negative connotations implied, it was as innocent as saying “Chinese takeaway”. Yet it’s become inherently racist today simply because it’s been used so often by racists that it’s lost any other meaning.

Two things - first, you'd have been better to go with "chinky" for a word which doesn't offend you, but does offend or at leas annoy some people of chinese descent, and is less associated with people getting their heads kicked in.

Second, and mainly, trying to define a set of rules for allowed language is probably better than no action though it does lead to the sort of feeble PC gawn mad humour on this thread. Much much better is to know that offending people accidentally and saying the wrong thing from time to time is just human. And rather than rules, when you inadvertently offend someone just find out what it is you did, say sorry, and avoid doing it again. (Unless you actually wanted to offend them.)

Which ‘guy quoted in the OP’ adopted the phrase and used it to insult black people? I’m lost. #sarcasmfail?

johnx - No, felt offended by its use.

We’re totally talking past one another now 🤪. This thread is quite an eye-opener re humans and communication. It’s a mimefield variously marked* area typified by randomly-placed subterranean explosive devices. *Where the markings (which may or may not be present) are often in a (literally or effectively) different language or context to that which would prove most effective to the unwary. To assist in the explosive nature of proceedings it seems that language itself is prone to change like shifting grains of silicon dioxide. The internet isn’t helping much, especially if one person on Urban Dictionary is instantly granted global gold-standard reference status for a given phrase.

We’re totally talking past one another now 🤪. This thread is quite an eye-opener re humans and communication. It’s a mimefield variously marked* area typified by randomly-placed subterranean explosive devices. *Where the markings (which may or may not be present) are often in a (literally or effectively) different language or context to that which would prove most effective to the unwary. To assist in the explosive nature of proceeding – language changes like shifting grains of silicon dioxide. The internet isn’t helping much, especially if one person on Urban Dictionary is instantly granted global gold-standard reference status for a given phrase.

The guy quoted in the OP said he felt offended. How's that talking past you?

The P-word you’re talking about is bizarre. I find it incredible that it’s considered racist when by its very definition it’s simply descriptive, like saying Scot

not a term I heard used much in recent times and I suspect that many from younger generations may have never heard it used and for those that have suffered racist taunts any word grouping that starts or includes "jungle" is probably suspect

There is a Family Guy skit where “scot” is used as a racial slur

If you want to offend a Scotsman, don't you call him "scotch"?

If you want to offend a Scotsman, don’t you call him “scotch”?

Nope.

You call him English

And rather than rules, when you inadvertently offend someone just find out what it is you did, say sorry, and avoid doing it again.

This is what I hope folk take away from this (although I would say the correct order is say sorry, find out what it is you did, and avoid doing it again). I'm not sure what this resistance is to saying sorry even if you don't feel like you did anything wrong.

I think people tend to freak out if they feel like they are being accused of being racist and will do everything possible to 'prove' they aren't. Saying sorry would be an admission of guilt and therefore admitting to being racist.

Just apologise. But whatever you do, don't say, 'I'm sorry if you are offended but...'

Equally I have never heard the term ‘jungle drums’ to be used in a racist manner 

I have, used to imply a black person is to stupid to use a phone.

Saying sorry would be an admission of guilt and therefore admitting to being racist.

Would it?

The guy quoted in the OP said he felt offended. How’s that talking past you?

Because I wasn’t asking about the guy in the OP, (from the OP, we can only assume what it was about the phrase that triggered him)- I was asking Brucewee for some actual data to back up his broad claim about the term’s ‘racist’ usage.

ie

Jungle Drums has been adopted by racists and they are now using it to insult black people.

That is a universal claim. I also asked about a ‘tipping point’. Or do we just accept that if one or (a handful) of people are either offended (or are using the term to give offence) then it is now a ‘verboten’ phrase, and also now supercharged with the global and executive definition of an ‘offensive term’. With the internet, that can be overnight. It’s paradoxical to me because racism is killed by ridicule of racism, yet also kept alive by ridicule of ‘race’. Ridicule of oversensitivity is problematic.

I would say the correct order is say sorry, find out what it is you did, and avoid doing it again).

yep. Never said I was any good at this...

OP. All you need to do is provide your HR people with a link to this thread, I'm sure that'll set them right 🙂

What is ignorant is to assume that you are any kind of authority on what is and isn’t racist. If a minority tells you something you said is racist then just apologise. You might learn why the other party took offense. It might even turn out they were mistaken.

I agree with the vast majority of what you're saying, you talk a lot of sense. The only point I'd perhaps disagree on is the implication that an apology is automatically mandatory. The missing step being to ask why first.

If I inadvertently say something offensive, then of course I will apologise sincerely. If however someone is simply looking for any old reason or opportunity to be offended then pff, let them choose to take offence, I'm not apologising for that.

Let me give you a real world example. A little while ago I had a Canadian friend visiting. At one point - well, probably several times - I called her variations on a "cheeky cow." Then one time she said to me something like, "every time you call me that, I hate you just a little bit more." I was shocked. I said, "wait, what? Why?"

It turned out that to her, calling someone a "cow" doesn't mean what it means over here in the UK but rather it's a physical insult, it implies "fat cow" or "you look like a cow." As she's a larger lady, I was absolutely mortified. I apologised profusely, explained that I had absolutely no idea and that it genuinely doesn't mean that here at all, and vowed never to call her that again.

Point is, if I'd just gone "oh, sorry" and dropped the subject then neither of us would have been any the wiser. I'd have thought she was overreacting, and she'd have remained under the false impression that I'd been repeatedly calling her fat for months.

Would it?

In reality, no. But in the mind of a nice white middle class person who feels like they have just been accused of being racist and is desperate to 'prove' and 'explain' why they aren't I can see them feeling that an apology would be an admission of guilt. Hence the non-apology 'I'm sorry if you took offense but...' phrases that are damn near guaranteed to piss off the offendee.

I’m not sure as I buy into this notion of automatically being in the wrong just because someone else says you are.

I think the consensus is that the OP wasn't in the wrong for using the phrase, but IS in the wrong for think dismissing a black person's opinion on racism and the non-apology.

However, his co-worker was (baselessly) offended

You can't say if it's baseless. You might say the black guy handled it poorly though. For all we know the kids in the local park pretended to bang 'jungle drums' every time he walked past whilst jeering and mocking. I don't think that as a white person you can say if his upset has any basis or not

I’m not sure what this resistance is to saying sorry even if you don’t feel like you did anything wrong.

Because it's an empty apology, it's just words. You can't apologise sincerely for something you've done if you don't understand what it is you've done, all you can do is say your sorry that they're upset, which isn't really the same thing.

Maybe this is an Aspie brain thing and just me being weird, but I'm not in the habit of apologising for things I haven't done or aren't my fault. An insincere apology isn't an apology at all, it's an attempt to appease someone.

*erratum

That is a universal claim claim of universality

Cougar wrote

Maybe this is an Aspie brain thing and just me being weird, but I’m not in the habit of apologising for things I haven’t done or aren’t my fault. An insincere apology isn’t an apology at all, it’s an attempt to appease someone.

I haven't been diagnosed, but have often noticed am nodding along in enthusiastic agreement with many of his comments 🧐

‘Dude, I am literally offended by what you just said’

‘Dude, I LITERALLY didn’t mean to offend anyone by what I just said, and trust me I know the meaning of ‘literally’ better than anyone who isn’t also on the spectrum’

‘Dude, you literally didn’t just say that?

‘I literally did’

‘Bruh!?’

The only point I’d perhaps disagree on is the implication that an apology is automatically mandatory. The missing step being to ask why first.

I don't think you lose anything by apologising straight away and it's much more likely to lead to a conversation where you can find out what the issue is.

In the OPs case he didn't feel like he said anything offensive and told the black person he didn't think the he had anything to be offended about. This seems to have understandably just pissed this person off even more and they chose to leave rather than stay and have a debate about language. Probably they were angry and they showed level headedness to leave rather than try to carry on debating while pissed off.

If the OP had started with, 'I'm really sorry, I had no idea, for me it's just an expression.' then I think the other person would have been more open to staying and discussing it and maybe everyone would have found there was actually nothing to be offended about. As has been said, jungle has many racist connotations and 'jungle drums' just isn't heard that much anymore.

I really don't see what anyone has to lose by apologising first. It's not an admission of guilt. It's just being British.

A person from ****stan is ****stani, the word p*** is ranked as the 10th most racially offensive term and you cannot equate the word Scot to it, which is the official term for a Scottish national. No wonder Reni Eddo-Lodge is No Longer Talking To White People About Race.

"I’ve written before about this white denial being the ubiquitous politics of race that operates on its inherent invisibility. So I can’t talk to white people about race any more because of the consequent denials, awkward cartwheels and mental acrobatics that they display when this is brought to their attention. Who really wants to be alerted to a structural system that benefits them at the expense of others?"

Start reading this book for free: http://amzn.eu/0kxt0Sq

Have you noticed how a similar pattern emerges when people talk about difficult subjects such as racism or sexism?
I admire @Brucewee and @molgrips, they have presented empathetic and rational ideas which reduces confusion and encourages dialogue, acceptance and understanding. Rather than calling out, they have called in. It's ok to admit that you didn't know how it would be interpreted, it's not your fault as an individual as racism is so insidious that structural racism is at the heart of British society. Are you willing to learn? Then you need to listen to what BAME people are saying, rather than being defensive and ridiculing them.
Can you imagine what it is like for a person of colour to read through some these posts on a cycling forum? Whilst contributers are anonymous it doesn't reflect well on the magazine nor the sport

You can’t say if it’s baseless. You might say the black guy handled it poorly though. For all we know the kids in the local park pretended to bang ‘jungle drums’ every time he walked past whilst jeering and mocking.

You know, that's a very good point. But the OP would have had no idea that was the case. So we get the rather bizarre situation where the OP hasn't said anything offensive but the African gentleman has justifiably taken offence.

An insincere apology isn’t an apology at all, it’s an attempt to appease someone.

Yes, exactly. It's a way of de-escalating tensions. It's one of the many ways society functions smoothly.

I know you said earlier you don't do it but I think most people would apologise if someone walked into them. I know I do. I lose nothing and it lets the other person know straight away that I'm not about to become aggressive. My insincere society mandated apology allows him to give me his sincere apology for walking into me without worrying that I'm about to punch him.

Empty apologies can save a lot of hassle in life. It was lane swimming at the pool today, I was heading down the line as fast as an old man can swim when someone crossed the line. I saw at the last second so stopped swimming and just bumped past rather than them getting a flailing arm. I stuck my head up and said sorry, so did they, end of.

Would it?

In reality, no

You never met someone who would take an apology as an admission of guilt? I must be unlucky...

We can enter the world/cycle of reinforcement simply by standing down. And I always apologise for people bumping into me. But I’ve never (to memory) apologised for offending someone where offence wasn’t intended without my also inviting a frank discussion as to how it came to be that we were BOTH mistaken. It doesn’t always work of course, but (especially when families or other groups are involved) there is sometimes a terribly injust(unjust) hierarchy that can be maintained/manipulated by passive-aggression, victim-card waving and wrongful blame.

@cougar I understand where you're coming from, but something like 'I'm sorry that I used language that offended you' can absolutely be a sincere apology and certainly goes some way towards repairing the damage done. It's important in these situations to take ownership of your actions, and as you've pointed out figuring out where you've gone wrong is an important part of that. But so is acknowledging the fact that your actions have intentionally or not lead to someone's offence*.

*Using the word offence here seems a bit too light. I can only begin to imagine what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racist language and am sure that the emotional damage can be considerable.

ANYWAY. Hats off to the mature and reasoned posters on this thread. I've learned a few things about language and bias.

So we get the rather bizarre situation where the OP hasn’t said anything offensive but the African gentleman has justifiably taken offence.

Perhaps yes. And this is the kernel of it. Things that might have racist origin or connotations are perpetuated by people who have no idea about it. This in itself is racist in an abstract way because it means white people aren't paying attention or are ignorant of the issues. And it's not like we aren't told - there's a lot written about racism, but then as you see on here people would rather believe themselves right than admit to themselves they have something to learn.

On the other hand, the black guy (not necessarily African is he?) could have simply been upset rather than actively offended. By which I mean 'sorry mate, I know you were just using a figure of speech but that phrase really upset me I had to leave' rather than 'how dare you, you racist bastard'. We don't really know what happened afterwards do we? Or did I miss the update?

From re-reading the OP it sounds like the follow-on was what caused more offence than the original phrase, which would change the situation quite a bit wouldn't it?

I know you said earlier you don’t do it but I think most people would apologise if someone walked into them. I know I do. I lose nothing and it lets the other person know straight away that I’m not about to become aggressive.

I say "excuse me" in that situation rather than "sorry." It achieves the same result without an implicit admission of being at fault.

Also this:

It’s ok to admit that you didn’t know how it would be interpreted

If someone asks you if a phrase is racist and you think it isn't then 'I don't know if it's racist' is a better answer than 'no it's not racist'. Particularly if you're not a user or receiver of racist language.

My millennial angst is spiraling into full meltdown now as I absolutely love Jungle music.

This in itself is racist in an abstract way because it means white people aren’t paying attention or are ignorant of the issues. And it’s not like we aren’t told – there’s a lot written about racism, but then as you see on here people would rather believe themselves right than admit to themselves they have something to learn.

Wow, isn’t that in itself negative (and racial) generalising?

I absolutely love Jungle music

You can use that term inoffensively unless someone (even 1 person from 8 billion) posts a different, negative and racially-charged definition on urbandictionary.com. Then it would be offensive and the onus would be upon you (if you are ‘white’) to know this, otherwise badnaughtyinsensitive ie typical white person /sarcasm

Wow, isn’t that in itself negative (and racial) generalising?

I guess we've come to the 'White people are the real oppressed people' stage of the discussion.

possibly trolling?

I guess we’ve come to the ‘White people are the real oppressed people’ stage of the discussion.

Wow. Really?

As others have said including me there is a way to do this without the empty words fake apology

this is to say something like " I didn't realise that could be seen as racist, help me understand why it can be"

Or "I said that with no racist intent, so let me explain why I, and others, use that phrase."

I know we've covered this before but the Union Jack is widely used, and seen, as a symbol of racism and oppression. And yet, it is still in widespread use.

I once got into an argument with a colleague over "positive discrimination" but we sorted it out by never speaking to each other again. With hindsight there may have been a better way.

this is to say something like ” I didn’t realise that could be seen as racist, help me understand why it can be”

Or hows about "I'm not racist, but...."?

Wow, isn’t that in itself negative (and racial) generalising?

Yeah, of course, insert the word 'most' or 'many' in there. My fingers get tired eventually.

I know you said earlier you don’t do it but I think most people would apologise if someone walked into them.

This happens for a reason - it diffuses the argument as to wether or not they bumped into you or you were in their way, because it's impossible to establish without going back over the video evidence. Both people usually apologise, no-one is the winner or lose, everyone's happy.

But apparently, when we're behind keyboards, we don't do this, someone has to be right, someone has to be the victor and someone the vanquished.