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Having this thread discovered by HR or an investigating manager wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. I don’t think that any reasonable social media policy rules will have been breached, and it is a contemporaneous account of the OPs genuine surprise (and therefore lack of racist intent) at the fact that the term could have been considered racist, as well as a willingness to reflect, learn and attempt to resolve the situation amicably.
This is what she said to me via PM
That's is undoubtedly an apology. And nothing like the other ones. I don't remember her using foul or threatening language though. Odd.
It was as close as he was going to get. Some posters you can just smell the crazy.
I seem to recall her saying she was ASD. That comes with all sorts of complications, on top of raising a couple of kids solo, and being a visible minority. I hope life gets better for her.
I don’t remember her using foul or threatening language though. Odd.
I've found a link to the original thread which I can PM to you if you want to review it. You were a vocal contributor to the discussion at the time.
Her 'language' got caught in the swear filter so wasn't immediately obvious, she called me and aracer * *s. I kinda glossed over all that TBH, I didn't care about her choice of words so much as her accusations.
I'll cheerfully hold my hand up that I'm sometimes poor at choosing words and often don't properly think posts through and then regret it later (and I do try to apologise when I recognise this) but I'm sincerely the least anything-ist person you'll ever meet.
That entire argument was someone being offensive, me going "hey, you're being offensive, here's another example of something that's similarly offensive so that you might understand just how outrageous that was" to be met with a chunk of the rest of the forum going "bloody hell Cougar, that's offensive!" Which, yes it was and that was kind of the point, but in hindsight I should have had the sense to have chosen a less volatile example. My point was valid, my implementation of that point was stupid.
I’ve found a link to the original thread which I can PM to you if you want to review it. You were a vocal contributor to the discussion at the time.
I remember the thread well and my failure in association with it but I don't recall a lot of language or threats - outside stating intentions to report to various bodies - which I guess I don't see as threats. I suppose I don't recall the language because sometimes people put the * in themselves.
I seem to recall her saying she was ASD. That comes with all sorts of complications, on top of raising a couple of kids solo, and being a visible minority. I hope life gets better for her
Same here. I hope she gets some help
I haven't read through the entire thread, so sorry if I'm repeating stuff that's already been said.
I don't think the OP is treating this as seriously as he should. It doesn't matter what his intentions were, the problem is the effect his words had and then the OP's behaviour afterwards.
1. HR people are not your friend. They are not there to help you. They are there to protect the company from lawsuits. It's much safer for them to reprimand or sack you than risk a potential lawsuit over having a culture of harassment.
2. It doesn't matter whether you intended to be offensive, or even whether a reasonable judge would think your comment was offensive. Another person is saying that you offended them. You cannot argue that you didn't offend them because only they have access to their own thoughts and feelings. What you should have done in the first place was to apologize for giving offense, regardless of whether you felt it was really justified. That would have sorted it all out and put an end to it. By refusing to acknowledge that the other person was offended, you turned it into a bigger issue. The issue now is your behavior afterwards, not the initial comment (i.e. it's the coverup, not the crime that's the problem).
3. Now that a formal complaint has been made, you talk about how other people are on your side. This sounds like there is a potential campaign of harassment against the complainent. Not all complaints to HR are found to be justified, but people are allowed to complain and you cannot criticize them for complaining, even if their complaint is not upheld. Publicly criticizing them and taking part in any sort of retaliation is much, much more serious than the initial behavior (which I think is a trivial mistake that could have been resolved with a genuine apology right at the start).
So my suggestion is to take it seriously, acknowledge that the other person was offended even if you had no intention of offending them, and also acknowledge that they were completely within their rights to make a complaint and make sure you don't publicly criticize them or harass them in any way (and the same goes for your colleagues, you need to tell them to back off). If you don't do that, you will make it very tempting for the company to start to think it will be much easier to just sack you and make the problem go away.
Oh that thread. Yeah, that was a good point made in entirely the wrong place, if you are trying to be objective then STW is not the place to try and do it. As somebody said before, the moment some people get offended it's all guns blazing and they absolutely will not listen to any reasoning. Which in some cases is understandable but this is why we have higher authorities to defer to who can (hopefully) look at the issue unemotively, objectively and most importantly factually.
Hols2 - agreed HR are not "your friends" but at the same time this has already been legally questioned and thrown out, I really cannot see what grounds they would have for concern.
To the people slagging the recipient of the op’s comms off.
He informed me he had spoken to HR helpline that morning and logged a complaint against me of racist behaviour.
It is quite possible that having spoken to a helpline he was instructed by them to put a formal complaint in, not many hr people, pregnant with such knowledge, will say just do nothing and we’ll all ignore it.
In the Wiltshire case the actual complaint of "inappropriate language" was upheld, it was the method of investigation that was deemed unfair.
I really cannot see what grounds they would have for concern.
For the original comment, sure. But when the OP starts talking about other people agreeing with him, it starts to sound like harassment of the complainant. That behaviour is much, much more serious than the original comment. Harassing someone for making a complaint is quite likely to get you fired, regardless of how minor the original offence was.
Harassing someone for making a complaint is quite likely to get you fired, regardless of how minor the original offence was.
Yep, and add race into it and it just increases the seriousness in regards to how the company have to deal with it to protect themselves.
Was the talk of the depot all day which was a bit akward and I received a few calls of support from a couple of the other depots who had heard what happened.
The question is how did the complaint to HR become common knowledge? Aren't these things supposed to be confidential?
The question is how did the complaint to HR become common knowledge?
Maybe HR are all mountain bikers?
The question is how did the complaint to HR become common knowledge? Aren’t these things supposed to be confidential?
The complainant informed the OP, guessing everyone else heard about it via the jungle drums as they say.
Are we talking about the Danny Baker thread here?
No, but there was that too. It was one on gender.
Envisage if you will, for one moment, that you are an innocent, naive interstellar traveller to a planet named ‘earth’. Imagine that your name is ‘Angelo’, and that your sanity and reference-points are represented by a small bird perched atop your head.
Now envisage this thread as a bald, overweight man in a pink onesie:
But when the OP starts talking about other people agreeing with him, it starts to sound like harassment of the complainant.
It sounds like nothing of the sort to me , to go from words of support from workmates who agree you did nothing wrong and somehow interpret that as harassment towards the person who made the complaint shows some very muddled thinking on your part.....
I followed the threads Cougar is refering to. I dipped out of one as it went of the rails because I like all the protagonists and they all had valid points but perhaps made them badly. The other I watched and made a late lamenting contribution.
There's was one point made back then that is relevant here:
That’s an attack, not an apology.
Take note, OP. Any apology needs to be sincere and unambiguous.
Maybe HR are all mountain bikers?
In the chat forum? More likely to be owners of gravel bikes surely
WOw - still going
APologies for the raking of old embers but I missed last night's later content and wanted to see if we had an outcome today:
No? You don’t think it’s a bit rich trying to define what is and isn’t racist or racially offensive, when you’re white in a historically white country? I used that term very carefully, to make a specific point. I’m not just pulling it out of the generic woke insult bag.
So although some people might use those terms in a certain way, you're saying that you didn't intend it in that way and so I'm being stupid and over-sensitive to suggest that you might* ?
<looks back to post #1> I see - it's parody, right ?? 😂
*I was referring to general use of the terms rather than specifically yours but hey, you go ahead and Molsplain it to me all you like - debate's good and maybe I can make you appreciate the perspective of someone who's been ground down by a lifetime of daily exposure to lazy, platitudinous claptrap
FWIW, I agree that the issue of racism has more than one perspective and I'd defend the co-worker's right to be offended. I don't, however, accept that the OP is automatically guilty of anything other than ignorance of the possible interpretation and that is not grounds for requiring an apology unless it was much, much more overt than is presented. (If the retrospective description of their response is accurate, yeah, maybe that merits an apology for insensitivity - not racism IMO). If it was a term that was universally accepted as offensive by relevant people, I think we'd all be aware already (after all, we've had 2 opinions on here - one mortally offended and one "WTF are they on about" - oh, and chewy 🤖 !!)
Similarly, if the co-worker's initial "interjection" was anything like "you (whatever) racist" with a bit of pointing, facing-up or whatever, then that is arguably more provocative and maybe they might reconsider their part in this too.
None of us knows the actual circumstances or importantly, manner of delivery of either part in this so telling anyone it's all their fault is pointless
I retain my opinion that accusing someone of "-splaining" is an attempt to de-legitimise their opinion and shut them down, not to explain discuss and educate about any issue as you claim to see as the preferred approach.
Take note, OP. Any apology needs to be sincere and unambiguous.
I rather fear that that ship has sailed. A sincere apology now is likely to met with "you're only saying that because I made a formal complaint."
What a complete mess. I work in a very diverse organisation, I doubt the original issue would have come up at all if said in an open office. Good luck OP and I hope this get's sorted.
to go from words of support from workmates who agree you did nothing wrong and somehow interpret that as harassment towards the person who made the complaint shows some very muddled thinking on your part…..
My point is that the OP could very easily lose his job over this unless he starts taking it seriously. The "words of support" can easily turn into harassment of the complainant. For company lawyers, just sacking the OP will start to look like the simplest way to avoid a potential lawsuit over harassment.
just sacking the OP will start to look like the simplest way to avoid a potential lawsuit over harassment.
It may but if the report of how things panned out are accurate from the OP then the company may be in hotter water for dismissing someone in this manner.
An apology from the OP for not offering a suitable response initially and an apology from the complainant for taking it so far so soon would be the most productive outcome I think.
and an apology from the complainant for taking it so far so soon
I don't think the complainant needs to apologise for anything. He followed normal procedure, he went to HR.
He followed normal procedure, he went to HR.
Most (if not all) places I've worked the procedure has been to go through line management first. May well be different for yours or his organisation.
Most (if not all) places I’ve worked the procedure has been to go through line management first. May well be different for yours or his organisation.
Good point.
We're in the middle of a situation at the moment which I can't really go into detail about as it's ongoing, but a member of my team took it upon themselves to go directly to HR over something which could readily have been sorted out 'in house' if he's spoken to our boss first and been straight about what he wanted. It's caused a right old shitstorm. Cans open, wormageddon.
No need to go through line management for issues such as racism:
https://www.acas.org.uk/racehate
When you read that I'll think you'll find the complainant was very conservative in his approach. Nothing to apologise for.
I don’t think the complainant needs to apologise for anything. He followed normal procedure, he went to HR.
Dunno, he could have had a quiet word with the OP, explained what bothered him and why, OP could have explained his side and they could have parted friends, with a greater understanding of each other. When did adults become infants, completely unable to negotiate life around other people without having to run to the teacher all the time?
When did adults become infants,
So now you're calling the complainant, a victim of racism, an infant, cromolyolly.
Update - I had my interview this morning as part of the investigation process. Before hand they sent me a copy of the disciplinary procedure and let me know I could take a representative or colleague with me to the interview which I did (a colleague to take notes on my behalf). My impression from the get go was that this was not about finding out facts about what happened, it was more about trying to get an outcome that upheld the complaint. They were not interested in any context or lack of intent to offend, and some of the assertions they made and questions they had were unbelievable. They could not see their own hypocrisy when I pointed out that some of what they were saying could also be taken as offensive should I wish to do so. At the end of the interview they stated that they thought there was enough to proceed to a disciplinary hearing and that's what they will be recommending. I would be informed formally in writing within 48hrs. They then pointed out the part of the discplinary procedure that showed the outcome from that could be summary dismissal.
There was a lot to take in and process after the interview and I went over the notes a few times with my colleague who to be honest looked a bit in shock about how it went so god knows what I must have looked like. I called by manager and went through it with him, he didn't seem too bothered or offered much in way of support, only that he was adamant that it was out of his hands and I was to follow through and cooperate with the process and see where it leads to. I hung around at work for a while after that but just felt like shite so I went away for a bit. I called my partner and had a good talk with her which cheered me up somewhat.
To start the week on a high, happy and excited about a lot of new work coming up in the new year to 4 days later sick to the stomach and feeling like I was being flung under a bus isn't something I was prepared for. Came quickly to the conclusion that I didn't need any of it, and wont be letting anyone try and label me as something I know I'm not. To continue working for a company where you are nothing more than a number on a spreadsheet, and with something like this marked on my file regardless of how it turns out doesn't appeal to me at all. I went back into work, emailed in my resignation informing them it's with immediate effect, said my goodbyes and left laptop and phone with reception and went home.
Might be a total toys out the pram momement, only time will tell, feel pretty good about the decision at the moment though.
All you lot in Motherwell who I'm sure will be reading this - thanks for your support and kind words this week, means a lot - cheers! And yes, I'll still be going to the Christmas night out!
Yep I couldn’t work in a place like that
Good luck man
WTF Benv that's sh17, maybe edukator and brucwee are the HR department in disguise.. You sound much better out of that place with those type of people running it looking for a way to make a name for themselves..
Proper c u next Tuesdays all around..
IMO thata a complete over reaction. You really needed a union rep there to support you. A lot of what you have complained about happening is standard operating procedure for investigations and disciplinary and I still stand by the comment that serious sanctions were very unlikely unless there is a lot more you haven't told us. An informal warning and a note on your file that is removed after a few months is nothing at all ad would be the most likely outcome
Investigations and disciplinary are very unpleasant processes. thats just the way they are.
"They then pointed out the part of the disciplinary procedure that showed the outcome from that could be summary dismissal." Legally required for them to say that because they need to warn you and that anything else would be prejudging the outcome. completely normal to say that once and investigation has something to proceed to disciplinary
Moral of the tale is:
JOIN A UNION! You would have had support who could have explained things to you and stopped you going off the deep end seeing things that are not there. You would also have someone to represent you at disciplinary.
I have been thru a bunch of disciplinary as the person being disciplined, as a manager and as a union rep.
So now you’re calling the complainant, a victim of racism, an infant, cromolyolly.
He wasn’t a victim of racism though was he Edukator? He perceived racist intent where, as far as we know, none was present. The two things are quite different, but I reckon you already knew that didn’t you?
Terrible turn of events there Benv , sorry to hear of the shoddy handling of the incident by your employers..
I may have taken external advice of this situation before quitting but if youre happier walking then good luck.
In the real world no-one likes a trouble maker at work whom sets out to lose someone their job so hopefully a bit of karma is coming the way of the complainant.
If it's happened how you said it happened, and you are disclosing everything then you have been well and truly shafted ..
I'd consider speaking to a lawyer. An accusation you may be a racist hanging over you is grounds for constructive dismissal I reckon..
Take a scrap of comfort from the fact that The guy that complained will probably find work a pretty uncomfortable place moving forward if all your co workers are sympathetic to your situation.
Its not even close to constructive dismissal. Nowhere near. Not even in the same room
Regarding the grievence process - according to the companies own procedure he could have either -
1. Taken the issue up first informally with me direct either by himself or anyone else he chooses on his behalf to have a word with me to see if it could be resolved satisfactorily.
2. Raised it with his manager or mine or one level higher up to do same as above and outcome recorded.
3. Raise a formal grievence.
Posting up links to advice about race hate is taking the piss. But do as you please.
In the real world no-one likes a trouble maker at work whom sets out to lose someone their job so hopefully a bit of karma is coming the way of the complainant.
**** me, do you have any idea how sinister that sounds?
What is the appropriate karma for an uppity black these days? Same as it was in the seventies?
When you read that I’ll think you’ll find the complainant was very conservative in his approach. Nothing to apologise for.
Perhaps the complainant should apologise for causing someone to resign from their job, with all the financial loss and emotional turmoil that entails, all for deciding to take pretend offence at a purely innocent remark.
A situation that could easily have been settled by a quick friendly chat and a shake of the hands.
I hope the complainant is happy with himself. If I worked there I would now avoid talking to him in case he stirs up more trouble.
What is the appropriate karma for an uppity black these days? Same as it was in the seventies?
You assume , incorrectly , that my comment applies to , or is aimed at , only persons of colour or ethnic minority , it doesnt so stop being a drama queen looking to create your hysterical racist accusation
The attitudes on here show why investigations and disciplinarys have clearly set out rules that are objective and fair to all.
so much misunderstanding of what happened and how the process works
So much misunderstanding of what racism is and making racist comments does not require any intent nor is intent inferred.