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The problem is you actually have to be able to tell me why it is racist though don’t you.
No, I don’t – I’m white, I’m not a victim of racism, I haven’t experienced it. What I am trying to do is prompt you to listen and think, rather than act like you know all about it.
Right molly, but that's the point. I'm all ears. I am listening & you are unable to tell me why it is racist. I can't avoid using racist phrases unless I have an idea why that phrase in particular (& even more importantly why a whole susbset of phrases which some people might think racist) unless I am able to recognise the factors that make the wording problematic.
Before you judge a man walk a mile in his shoes
...then you can say whatever you like, because you're a mile away and you have his shoes.
But if we stop using jungle drums, then we're going to get the bass solo. And that's what we all fear.
I feel sorry for you OP. It is so easy to offend nowadays without intention. I'd be nice to him and ask him why it's offensive so you have more insight and say your sorry.
Init. Whether the language is racist is almost a side issue (albeit it's got a few folk rather het up for some reason...). The main issue is not apologising for causing inadvertent offence.
If I accidentally upset someone, I dunno, swhose granny had died of albumen poisoning, I'd not spend ages trying to justify myself and say really if they see things in a balanced way "teaching your granny to suck eggs" was a perfectly normal thing for me to say.so they should just get over it, especially as it was ten years ago and albumen poisoning isn't a thing. You'd say, "really sorry, I had no idea, i'm really really sorry" wouldn't you? Job done.
Jungle drums? Nah. I take it back. As I type the phrase it now makes me think of casual use of clearly racist terms for black people with the word 'jungle'in them, and on to bongo bongo land', umbongo umbongo they drink it in the congo - yep that's what's lying round in my head. The 70s eh? What a time for free speech.
But mainly:
The bigger crime is it sounds like something David Brent would say
“Put people right?” A member of the white majority telling a member of the black minority
here we go again - information snippets not used in context - are you "The Sun", or the "Daily Wail"
I have at no point used the term "people" in the perjortive of black vs white (or any other colour for that matter), to the contrary i made it explicityly clear, that any view point, no matter where it is coming from directed at whatever "crowd" (for want of a better term) where that view is not valid, is absolutley correct that people (again, not associating with any specific creed, colour, sex) should be called out and people (see last statement) should not be afraid to correct people (again see previous explanation).
@ Molgrips
I wasnt aware that I was defending any position ..you really must try to stop second guessing what I'm thinking ( you're not that clever ).
It was a rhetorical question ..I was merely posting a link to a video which shows that drums are used in jungles / heavily forested areas as a form of communication ..I hadn't actually given any personal opinion as to whether I thought it was a racist comment ..however for once I'm in complete agreement with your assertion that " no no no it really is not .."
As for the rest of your post ..pure fluff...your veiled insults are water off a ducks back " (apologies to any ducks who might find that comment offensive)..
Again - trumpton has it
Its an easy solution:
"I did not realise that could be seen as racist, help me understand"
It is both hilarious and frustrating watching white folk telling black folk what is racist and what is not.
Of course "jungle drums" is racist. They are words after all and therefore people are perfectly entitled to get offended by them.
Reminds me of the time I saw the word "haggis" used. As a Scot I was utterly shocked. Okay it was on a restaurant menu, in Glasgow, but all the same the sheer racism off it made me almost choke on my deep fried Irn-Bru.
It is both hilarious and frustrating watching white folk telling black folk what is racist and what is not.
As funny as watching an atheist define what is, and isn't anti-semitic?
I have at no point used the term “people” in the perjortive of black vs white (or any other colour for that matter), to the contrary i made it explicityly clear, that any view point, no matter where it is coming from directed at whatever “crowd” (for want of a better term) where that view is not valid, is absolutley correct that people (again, not associating with any specific creed, colour, sex) should be called out and people (see last statement) should not be afraid to correct people (again see previous explanation).
I got lost halfway.
johnx2
Member
I have at no point used the term “people” in the perjortive of black vs white (or any other colour for that matter), to the contrary i made it explicityly clear, that any view point, no matter where it is coming from directed at whatever “crowd” (for want of a better term) where that view is not valid, is absolutley correct that people (again, not associating with any specific creed, colour, sex) should be called out and people (see last statement) should not be afraid to correct people (again see previous explanation).I got lost halfway.
its OK i got lost halfway through writting it
How about 'smoke signals'? Racist?
It is both hilarious and frustrating watching white folk telling black folk what is racist and what is not.
So... Let's take the 'nitty-gritty' example. Let's just assume that it has been convincing demonstrated that the phrase has nothing at all to do with slave ships or derived from a racist French phrase or whatever & instead is just an adaption of the word grit. Humour me on this. Do you think that you shouldn't actually point this out to someone who is accusing you of using a racist phrase?
I wasn't aware that I was defending any position
No I think you are, internally. But yeah just a supposition.
Right molly, but that’s the point. I’m all ears. I am listening & you are unable to tell me why it is racist.
I'm not going to tell you why or even if it's racist - I'm white, it wouldn't really be appropriate even if I thought I knew. I'm suggesting things to think about as to why people might be upset by this use of language.
It's pretty clear the OP was oblivious to the impact of his words and is entirely innocent. But we should take this as an opportunity to think about things from a different point of view. Not have a cock fight about who's right.
As funny as watching an atheist define what is, and isn’t anti-semitic?
Oof!
As funny as watching an atheist define what is, and isn’t anti-semitic?
top derail. 4 pages?
The traditional drumming found in Africa is actually of three different types. Firstly, a rhythm can represent an idea (or signal). Secondly it can repeat the accentual profile of a spoken utterance or thirdly it can simply be subject to musical laws.
Drum communication methods are not languages in their own right; they are based on actual natural languages. The sounds produced are conventionalized or idiomatic signals based on speech patterns. The messages are normally very stereotyped and context-dependent. They lack the ability to form new combinations and expressions.
In central and east Africa, drum patterns represent the stresses, syllable lengths and tone of the particular African language. In tone languages, where syllables are associated with a certain tone, some words are distinguished only by their suprasegmental profile. Therefore, syllable drum languages can often transfer a message using the tonal phonemes alone.
In certain languages, the pitch of each syllable is uniquely determined in relation to each adjacent syllable. In these cases, messages can be transmitted as rapid beats at the same speed as speech as the rhythm and melody both match the equivalent spoken utterance.
Misinterpretations can occur due to the highly ambiguous nature of the communication. This is reduced by context effects and the use of stock phrases. For example, in Jabo, most stems are monosyllabic. By using a proverb or honorary title to create expanded versions of an animal, person's name or object, the corresponding single beat can be replaced with a rhythmic and melodic motif representing the subject. In practice not all listeners understand all of the stock phrases; the drum language is understood only to the level of their immediate concern.
http://begin-english.ru/stati-na-angliiskom/drums-in-communication
Some context. But of course, as in all forms of communication - the irony is that the intent and context is interpreted not by the transmitter but the receiver. Am currently enjoying (sarcasm) the fourth consecutive year of familial estrangement owing to the ****ing grapevinedrumwhispers over spouse email to in-law. It was perceived by the receiver as an insult (an inversion of context and meaning, ie it was intended as support through a tough time) and then no amount of explanation would shift the wrong perception. So, the meaning of the communication was perfectly inverted and then used against the sender.
Once someone decides to take ‘offence’, they will often heavily invest in being ‘right’ and never, ever back down, neither have the humility or empathy to see that it is in fact they who are causing the harm and hurt. Or maybe they can see, and think ‘job done’. Who knows?
* Irony writ large! (As per OP)in spoken and written lamguage the misintepretation is often increased by using a stock phrase.
For instance, when I tried to moderate aforementioned family spat by suggesting that that the email in question had been subject to an ‘uncharitable interpretation’ - the response was much crying and an angry ‘I don’t want charity’. So you see, sometimes there is literally no way to escape the permanently offended unless you speak in ‘their language’. But if their ‘language’ is primarily emotional and skewed - then the effort becomes gargantuan and usually fruitless.
Sit tight and stick to your guns.
I’m not going to tell you why or even if it’s racist – I’m white, it wouldn’t really be appropriate even if I thought I knew. I’m suggesting things to think about as to why people might be upset by this use of language.
So the logical outcome of this is that as a white person, I will end up going around using offensive phrases (at least until I am informed about each individual, specific phrase by a black person) because apparently I have no way of knowing what is racist and what isn’t...... really?
Before you judge a man walk a mile in his shoes
Sexist expression that. I suggest using "before you judge a person walk a mile in their shoes".
before you judge a person walk a mile in their shoes”.
Discriminates against people in wheelchairs, that does.
So the logical outcome of this is that as a white person, I will end up going around using offensive phrases (at least until I am informed about each individual, specific phrase by a black person) because apparently I have no way of knowing what is racist and what isn’t…… really?
...and not just racist language - there's all kinds of ways in human interaction you can put your foot in it. I mean common sense and knowledge help a bit, as does being open to learning, but mainly just try being polite and saying sorry when you've got something wrong.
you can put your foot in it.
Amputeeist!
If we're doing it in a non-sexist way, does that mean we all have to potentially walk a mile in a pair of stiletto's?
stop that before I get too turned on.
Not sure how I should feel about the "Black Friday" advert that has inserted itself into this thread multiple times....
Just don't get it confused with Black-up Friday. Thats something else completely different and will definitely land you in hot water with HR
How about ‘smoke signals’? Racist?
This is about the fourth time someone has brought up smoke signals so let's have a wee look at what makes a term racist.
Let's go back to my racist term for brown people that the swear filter won't let me use (it begins with a P and rhymes with taxi). Why is it OK for people to call me a Scot but not for someone to call my colleague from ****stan a ****?
On the face of it they are both the same, an abbreviation to describe our place of birth. It wasn't the PC brigade who one day decided, 'Do you know what, I feel like getting offended today. Let's call everyone who says **** a racist.'
The people who turned **** into a racist term were racists. They infused it with negative connotations and hurled it around until using it marked you out as, at best, ignorant of what was happening in society or, more likely, simply a racist.
Black people are at the cutting edge of what constitutes racist terms but they aren't at the bleeding edge. The real experts in racist terminology are racists. There is no such thing as an inherently racist word.
There are two explanations for why this person took offense. The first is that Jungle Drums has been adopted by racists and they are now using it to insult black people.
The second is that it's a phrase that has fallen so far out of common usage that this person had never heard it before. Jungle has many racist connotations thanks to racists so he may have assumed it was a racist term.
It sounds like the OP offended this black person and instead of saying, 'Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't even think that could be the case.' he said, 'Sorry if you took offense but I didn't say anything for you to get offended about.' Are you really that surprised he didn't want to stick around and hear your 8 point presentation about why it's not racist?
This forum is mostly populated by people who don't receive racial abuse and (I would hope) don't dish it out. Therefore, if racist language is evolving and Jungle Drums has developed racist connotations we would be the absolute last ones to know about it.
Smoke signals probably isn't racist because neither the words smoke nor signal have racist connotations and, as far as I know, racists haven't started using it to abuse minorities so can we please stop making that argument?
To have a bunch of middle aged white people asserting with 100% confidence that there is absolutely nothing racist about Jungle Drums is absolutely ridiculous.
So the logical outcome of this is that as a white person, I will end up going around using offensive phrases (at least until I am informed about each individual, specific phrase by a black person) because apparently I have no way of knowing what is racist and what isn’t…… really?
Yes, mostly, that is exactly what happens. The only think you got wrong is that 'you have no way of knowing'. Well, you do - you can read the right books, the right articles, and have the right conversations with the right people. It's called learning, not 'sticking to your guns'. You might've established your point of view in a vacuum, if you don't have direct experience of the issues - but don't continue to dismiss the issues because you've already decided on your point of view.
So instead of 'it's not racist and here's why' try 'I didn't think it was racist, I never realised how a black person would view it'.
Smoke signals probably isn’t racist because neither the words smoke nor signal have racist connotations and, as far as I know, racists haven’t started using it to abuse minorities so can we please stop making that argument?
Equally I have never heard the term 'jungle drums' to be used in a racist manner other than the bastardised use of it for cars with loud music playing. When used in the manner the OP used it I have never, ever thought of it as being meant as a racist attack.
Equally I have never heard the term ‘jungle drums’ to be used in a racist manner other than the bastardised use of it for cars with loud music playing. When used in the manner the OP used it I have never, ever thought of it as being meant as a racist attack.
If I call someone from ****stan a **** is that not racist? It's just like calling someone from Scotland a Scot, afterall.
**** is a term that has been infused with racist connotations. Once that happens it's racist no matter how you use it.
Once you infuse Jungle Drums with racist connotations it becomes racist regardless of the context.
I'm still trying to work out what begins with P and rhymes with taxi...
You offended someone. Apologise profusely. It’s what you do if you bump into someone in the street even if it wasn’t your fault.
Is it? Someone bumps into you and you go "sorry"?
I'm not sure as I buy into this notion of automatically being in the wrong just because someone else says you are. If I said "I took my suit to the dry cleaners yesterday" and a passing person of colour happening to walk past, overheard and said "hey, that's racist!" do I then have to spend the rest of my life wearing crumpled shirts for fear of causing offence?
Even if there's some undiscovered racist connotations to the phrase that the OP (and seemingly most posters here) were unaware of, that's kind of irrelevant because that's not the context in which the OP was using it. If he'd been discussing some phat beatz coming from the car park then I can see how offence might be taken there as it's potentially equating black / Asian people with African tribes. Similarly if he'd enquired as to the whereabouts of his colleague by asking "hey, where's Jungle Drums today?" then that's blatantly racist. But using "jungle drums" as a metaphor for information which spreads possibly inaccurately but quickly and widely, you'd really have to try pretty hard to find racist intent there.
So, I don't think the OP did anything wrong (aside from his clumsy non-apology perhaps). However, his co-worker was (baselessly) offended, so in the interests of having to work together every day, some form of explanation might be in order. Like I said earlier, "I had no idea that anyone could take that turn of phrase as having racist connotations and that absolutely wasn't my intention, however if it bothers you then I won't use it again." Grapevine is a perfectly cromulent substitute, assuming there's no overly sensitive vintners in the organisation.
Jungle Drums has been adopted by racists and they are now using it to insult black people.
‘Adopted’ by how many, who and where? Please provide facts.
Is there a ‘tipping-point’ where the meaning and context of a well-known phrase now becomes ‘racially-charged’ and then subject to BANHAMMER! ie User = badignorantinsensitive?
Is it? Someone bumps into you and you go “sorry”?
That’s ageistracist against middle-class English elderly persons 🤣
I wouldn't say 'cromulent' in a non-apology (a "nology", if you will).
‘Adopted’ by how many, who and where? Please provide facts.
guy quoted in the OP
I wouldn’t say ‘cromulent’
Conan the Barbarian is deeply offended.
guy quoted in the OP
Which ‘guy quoted in the OP’ adopted the phrase and used it to insult black people? I’m lost. #sarcasmfail?
Grapevine is a perfectly cromulent substitute,
(Looks up ‘cromulent’)
Ah, but IS it? Heard It Through The Grapevine is a song by Marvin Gaye, well-known person of African descent. People have used his surname to insult LGBGTQ people. Not only that but California Raisins Advisory Board used the song to make a claymation commercial of singing raisins. That vaguely weird and vaguely racist commercial made so much money for indie label Priority Records that they signed N.W.A.
It’s a minefield. And by ‘minefield’ I don’t mean to insult amputees or victims/families of victims of landmines.
Which ‘guy quoted in the OP’ adopted the phrase and used it to insult black people? I’m lost. #sarcasmfail?
No, felt offended by its use.
(it begins with a P and rhymes with taxi)
How do rhymes work?
Yeah, it's all Greek to me.
that’s kind of irrelevant because that’s not the context in which the OP was using it.
So it's perfectly OK to describe someone from ****stan as a ****? According to the swear filter it isn't.
Or do you think that **** was racist from the very first time the term was used?
I see the OP hasn't posted for a while, do you think he's been lynched?
‘Adopted’ by how many, who and where? Please provide facts.
I can see we're at the stage where all I'm going to be doing is quoting my previous replies.
This forum is mostly populated by people who don’t receive racial abuse and (I would hope) don’t dish it out. Therefore, if racist language is evolving and Jungle Drums has developed racist connotations we would be the absolute last ones to know about it.
Believe it or not, not everything can be found on the internet.
I also gave an alternate explanation.
The second is that it’s a phrase that has fallen so far out of common usage that this person had never heard it before. Jungle has many racist connotations thanks to racists so he may have assumed it was a racist term.
Either way the OP's dismissive attitude and the attitude of many on this forum shows an astonishing level of arrogance for a subject most have no direct experience of.