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Tricky eh?
It’s really difficult.
Why would you expect to understand racism fully, if you’re white?
You kidding ? We invented it 🙂
... though FWIW, "mansplaining" "whitesplaining" and associated derivatives are IMO (granted, as a white male) the very peak of trite, dismissive, passive-aggressive bollocks - no better than the behaviour they're used to describe. No offence.
Spear chucker = racist
Jungle drummer =
Possibly the term jungle drums evokes black people in a backwards way?
Should I be expecting to find myself in hot water at work?
That’s racist!
And there are some here who come across as patronising and condescending.
Can I watch the new Jumanji? It is set in a jungle and judging by the other two it will also contain drumming.
Can I watch the new Jumanji?
Well, you can. But you really shouldn’t.
Hope that helps.
Doris, just because you’ve never heard these phrases doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
thanks, I appreciate the helpful tip
If it had been prejoratively applied to the person in question then yes, without a doubt racist but that’s clearly not the case.
But the reverse is not true. A racist joke or comment does not become un-racist as soon as any BME people leave the room.
The bloke taking offence might ‘possibly’ be basing his offence on a poor understanding of the term. Thought about it all evening and I still can’t quite put my finger on specifically why it should be considered racist.
Indeed, but many of us can agree that it might fall into a bit of a grey or uncertain area. There is a long tradition of White Europeans using terms similar to this one in dismissive or pejorative fashion, so although the bloke might have got the wrong end of the stick, it's not hard to imagine that he has heard plenty of genuine shit in his time, and may even have just been insulted on the street 5 minutes earlier, putting him in a sensitive frame of mind.
So it's probably easiest if we try and stay off our high horses and be understanding. Though some here would no doubt disagree.
because a phrase has the word ‘jungle’ in it then it’s automatically racist
This was my initial thought, I must admit.
I can see how somebody might take offence at the phrase - particularly if the bloke in question thought he was being directly accused of gossiping. Similar to calling a child a "cheeky monkey" - if my toddler (white) is misbehaving and I call him a cheeky monkey, no issue - monkeys are cheeky. That's different to producing a poster of a black child with the words "cheeky monkey" written underneath.
Either way - at the risk of looking like I'm attacking the victim - I also think it's pretty poor to openly accuse somebody of racism/using racist language in such a marginal case. Overt racism - sure, let em have it in front of everyone. Somebody says something that's in common parlance, in the correct context, which you find offensive? Call them out on it sure, but I don't think that being accused of racism in front of your colleagues is particularly proportional in this case
Ridiculous.
I am offended by the PC brigade and I don't expect an apology from them.
Spear chucker = racist
Jungle drummer =
Good effort.... but no. Nobody called anybody anything.
I cant think of a circumstance where a phrase like jungle drums would even enter my vocab today unless I was watching King Kong or Johnny Weissmuller. Maybe when I was 10 in 1970s
There is a long tradition of White Europeans using terms similar to this one......
Indeed, that's about as close as to why it might be racist as I've got. It will have been previously uttered by a man in a pith helmet and knee length socks who was a dreadful racist who said some unspeakable things so therefore this term is racist too. He also probably said 'who's for a gin and tonic?' but I'm still clear to say that without fear of offence I think.
....in dismissive or pejorative fashion
Thing is I genuinely can't see a dismissive or pejorative angle to this phrase. It's almost a positive one - the efficient dissemination of information and the calling to arms.
The problem is you actually have to be able to tell me why it is racist though don’t you.
No, I don't - I'm white, I'm not a victim of racism, I haven't experienced it. What I am trying to do is prompt you to listen and think, rather than act like you know all about it.
though FWIW, “mansplaining” “whitesplaining” and associated derivatives are IMO (granted, as a white male) the very peak of trite, dismissive, passive-aggressive bollocks
No? You don't think it's a bit rich trying to define what is and isn't racist or racially offensive, when you're white in a historically white country? I used that term very carefully, to make a specific point. I'm not just pulling it out of the generic woke insult bag.
Being black does not make you necessarily accurate. There are some ignorant, poorly informed black people too.
Indeed there are, thank you for pointing this out. Listening to people does not mean automatically accepting everything they say. But you should be aware that there is FAR more to racism than simply 'black people are rubbish', and that if you're white you are simply oblivious to it. So you cannot really assert a strong point of view on a topic about which you probably understand very little.
Thing is I genuinely can’t see a dismissive or pejorative angle to this phrase.
That's to be expected, but maybe the OP's colleague can...
That’s to be expected
I simply don't buy that and find it a little insulting. I may not have had it beaten (physically or emotionally) into me but to say 'you weren't there man' like some Nam vet is just naff. Empathy, decentering and common intellect based on reasonable general knowledge can't be dismissed out hand as irrelevant. How do you think historians and scholars operate? I might not be able to 'feel' the racial element but can deduce. I am also a man but have worked with female rape victims. By your rational I would have no hope of being on the same page but curiously I have apparently been useful to them. How in the world did that happen?
So, I know you are white and therefore dumb as **** like most here, but what's you take on why it is categorically racist (i.e. enough to step into a conversation you were not part of and call it out)?
So the fact that drums are used in the jungle is considered racist ?
https://boingboing.net/2018/04/27/how-amazonian-drums-sound-and.html
It happens ..so why is it deemed so ?
I also thought that your 'I didn't give offence' was oddly phrased. Words came out of your mouth which offended someone, so you did whether you wanted to or not.
Maybe 'no offence was intended' would be more diplomatic if/when you're summoned for a chat.
Anyway, best of luck. I can see both sides but it really shouldn't become a big thing if both parties just acknowledge the other's perspective and move on.
and move on
And avoid using it in future because from a bit of Googling and this thread I've learned that it's becoma a contentious expression to the point it's best avoided, like many others. Moving with the times is a social skill.
Jesus, you suggest to white people they might not be able to use a phrase that they probably use a couple of times a year at most and they lose their shit.
'I refuse to stop using this phrase until you explain to me why exactly it is racist!'
You offended someone. Apologise profusely. It's what you do if you bump into someone in the street even if it wasn't your fault. You don't stop and have a debate about pedestrian right of way and then have start a 63 page forum post about it.
Nobody is saying you are racist for using this phrase. Nobody is even saying you are ignorant. It's just a phrase that some people are now finding offensive. There are a lot of them. It's impossible to be 100% sure what could cause offense these days. If someone gets offended by a throw away phrase apologise profusely (ie. 'I'm so sorry, I had no idea it was offensive. It's something I never even considered but now you say it it's obvious. I'm sorry, I'll pay more attention in future.' as opposed to 'I'm sorry if you took offense but in my opinion it's not racist and there is really nothing you should be getting upset about.') and move on with your life free from the harassment and discrimination faced by many minorities.
One of the downsides of being white is you don't get to explain to black people what they can and can't be offended by. No matter many how many of your black friends tell you it's fine.
For example, I recently learned the meaning of nitty gritty on a mike Duncan history podcast and subsequently I don’t use it. In fact I try to explain to anyone who uses it, where the tern came from.
Do they correct you or just nod and smile?
Do they correct you or just nod and smile?
And
You’ll need to unlearn that as it turned out to be made up and simply untrue.
There is more evidence that nitty gritty is racist than jungle drums.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1988776.stm
The fundamentals, realities or basic facts of a situation or subject. <b>The heart of the matter</b>.
<b>ORIGIN: </b>according to the Oxford English Dictionary Online, the term started as <b>US slang</b> but its origin is unknown. Editor of the Dictionary of Slang, Jonathon Green, speculates it is merely a reduplication of the standard English word gritty.
<b>ORIGIN 2: </b>one theory is that "nitty-gritty" refers to the debris left in the bottom of a <b>slave ships</b> at the end of a voyage. Hence, use of the term is highly contentious and has been banned by the police.
Debunked.
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/nitty-gritty.html
Even in your link.
<b>DISPUTED: </b>some <b>wordsmiths are sceptical</b>that the word has such a long history. Dr Jonathan Lighter, editor of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang, records the first example from 1956: "You'll find nobody comes down to the nitty-gritty when it calls for namin' things for what they are."
<b>DISPUTED 2: </b>the view that "nitty-gritty" has slave connotations "may belong in the same line of folklore which holds that a picnic was a slave lynching party," writes lexicographer Michael Quinion in his World Wide Words website. "Its origins are elusive," writes Mr Quinion, but it is <b>"inconceivable</b> that it should have been around since slave-ship days without somebody writing it down [until the mid-20th Century]."
So the fact that drums are used in the jungle is considered racist ?
No, no, no, it really isn't. Try to learn here - instead of trying to defend your current position which appears to be one of ignorance. But don't worry, it's ok to admit to yourself that you did't understand something.
Yes, these terms are vague and loose connotations. But that's the nature of racism - ignorant attitudes are baked into society, still, and this is why we need to pick it all apart. Because the everyday language we use can be quite oppressive still when you are on the wrong side of it.
Debunked
But isn't that the whole point of this argument?
If one person is offended by a phrase, a statement etc then it is possibly racist and shouldn't be used.
We all know you can find an argument for or against on the Internet.
The fact its been banned by the police suggests there is enough reason to stop using it.
At least there is some evidence behind this phrase. I've still not seen any evidence for why jungle drums is racist.
‘Sending up smoke signals’ would be a close equivalent I guess. Nothing derogatory about using either term as long as you weren’t using it to describe a particular colleague or group.
BIGOT! You better watch out for the legions of offended Catholics (they'll think you're mocking the papal election process). If they don't get you the Native Americans will.
Listen / read what molgrips has to say. He has explained it well.
Someone mentioned above that racists have started using the term to refer to thumping music coming out of cars driven by black people.
It's possible that, while it doesn't have racist roots, racists have adopted it recently and made it racist. In which case your beef is with racists, and not 'overly sensitive' black people. Maybe the black person in question has experienced it being used as a racist term first hand. The fact is he is far more likely to know what is and isn't racist than you are.
I don't think that **** was a racist term when it was first used, anymore than calling someone from Scotland a Scot. However, racists kept on shouting '****ing ****s!' until it became a racist term.
Edit: The swear filter has made a bit of a mess of my final paragraph but I'm sure you get the jist.
Can I request that the OP (diplomatically) asks the offended colleague how he'd heard "jungle drums" used in a racist way before? Or if he'd even heard it before?
Purely in the spirit of mutual understanding, obvs.
Is it wrong that this comment made me chuckle because someone called banana posted it , runs and hides
I cant think of a circumstance where a phrase like jungle drums would even enter my vocab today unless I was watching King Kong or Johnny Weissmuller. Maybe when I was 10 in 1970s
Someone mentioned above that racists have started using the term to refer to thumping music coming out of cars driven by black people.
It’s possible that, while it doesn’t have racist roots, racists have adopted it recently and made it racist. In which case your beef is with racists, and not ‘overly sensitive’ black people. Maybe the black person in question has experienced it being used as a racist term first hand. The fact is he is far more likely to know what is and isn’t racist than you are.
This is a very valid point.
The bigger crime is it sounds like something David Brent would say
Doris I agree on being understanding but that comes with the caveat of understanding the why of the situation and not just accepting anything is a pejorative term based solely on one person's say so.
Your point about the reverse not being true holds no water here. Its not like he called him a [insert pejorative term] which then became acceptable when he left the room. The comment was not directed at him, was not used in a derogatory fashion and thus far whilst people have a couple of links to one other sole case where it caused offence nobody has managed to provide any evidence that it is racist in any way shape or form. This isnt a case of people deciding what's not demonstrably racist as opposed to folk arbitrarily deciding something is racist with no proof whatsoever.
If we can just decide what's a pejorative term with no reasonable proof needed then as a Scot I expect the next person to use the terms 'Edinburgh defence' and 'Scot free' to feel the ban hammer. If anyone objects to this then how dare you decide what is and isn't offensive.
Im with the "not racist" brigade on this. Its ridiculous to even think it is, its a popular colloquial term for disseminating information. Someone early mentioned about smoke signals, well these could just as easily be racist to Indigenous Americans, or anywhere else smoke was used in the world – im certain no-one will find it offensive though.
To the OP, I think you’ve done yourself, and even the offendee a disservice by acknowledging his “offence”. There is no right in life to be “offended” just because you feel that way, sometimes you have to accept your just plain wrong and to get over it. I’d go as far to say, you need to go back to him and in a more polite way, say – “im not sorry actually, you’re just being a ****, and if you want to take it further, bring on a tribunal (or whatever)
There's a Stephen fry snippet somewhere that says it better..
Oh good, the 'Black people, get over it!' brigade have arrived.
Blimey! Its all gone a bit Jim Davidson on here, hasn't it?
No the
BruceWee
Member
Oh good, the ‘Black people, get over it!’ brigade have arrived.
that's not what is being said at all, and your ignorance to suggest it is plays a part in the problem of overly-sensitive views being given creedance. I think through the various posts we've mostly agreed there is nothing inherently worng with the saying, therefore the point about telling anyone who sees offense in something that they should not, irrepsecitve of colour, creed, sex that they do not have a valid point is right.
You literally told the OP to go and find this black person and tell him to 'Get over it, you ****!', you massive massive lunatic.
I have not read all the responses, but my take on this is that if the OP had said the phrase directly to or referencing any person 'of African descent' then it could be considered racist but, if it was said as a term simply to suggest there is idle gossip running through the company then I think it would be quite absurd to suggest it was used in a racist manner.
Aren't "whitesplaining" and "mansplaining" racist and sexist by definition?
Many terms however depend where you are and context... my mate was offended being told he couldn't use the word "black" to describe himself but must use the word African American which he found offensive being Beninese.
Even after he'd explained he was African not in any way American and found the American part inappropriate they refused to back down which is when he started to get offended.
BruceWee
Member
You literally told the OP to go and find this black person and tell him to ‘Get over it, you ****!’, you massive massive lunatic.
No, i said go and find 'the' person who is being unduley sensitive to get over it.. At no point did i, or anyone else say "black people need to get over it".. Context is important, and without leads to injustice or otherwise trial by media snippet like what you are doing.. POint stands - the OP should not have apologised and frankly going back to someone and saying, "do you know what, i've thought about this and actually i've come to some very carefull consideration, that i was not wrong and i believe you having taken a common term, and turned it to to bolster an invlaid view is injust"...
I'm sure that approach would end really, really well
Definitely.
binners
Subscriber
I’m sure that approach would end really, really wellDefinitely.
so are we afraid to put people right for fear of offending their incorrect view? Should we not say, do you know hat mate, that grass clearly isn't blue, it's green... Surely, and i'll wager that at some point in your life someone has had to tell you you are wrong, and you may have considered it and gone, yeah i was. But what if they didnt tell you you were wrong, and you continued to push you [incorrect] view to the detriment of others - would that be good??
I'm not too sure now
Clearly I'm not blessed with your extensive experience in international diplomacy and race relations
No it's not racist. And of course you won't get into trouble from hr. At worst you may be asked to refrain from using the term again.
Just read what Molegrips said. He explained it well.
FFS guys get over yourselves. Its not the 1970s.
"Put people right?" A member of the white majority telling a member of the black minority that considered a statement racist that they are wrong? You cannot see what is wrong t=with that. jeepers. Before you judge a man walk a mile in his shoes