Compared to many places in Europe the UK is sit. Crap publuc services. Corrupt government. Angry unhappy people.
Its become utterly obvious to me how far we have fallen behind after decades of Tory rule. Yes you pay more tax i other countries but its obvious that tax is spent on the wellbeing of the people
Again, not hugely different to the rest, we just like to bemoan our lot, same as the French do theirs, the Germans as well and so on.
I've yet to see these lands of milk and honey where they have great public services, less taxation, higher paying jobs and so on, politically most similar nations are in the similar sway between soft left and soft right, and as for angry unhappy people, we definitely don't have a lion share of that compared to other countries!
I agree the UK is having a shit phase at the moment, but as they say you don't always know what you've got. When I was in Germany most businesses and services did not actually care about their customers at all. It was very business-like but not much empathy or caring about the people with problems, which is something I see more in the UK (outside government services, in the current climate).
I’ve yet to see these lands of milk and honey where they have great public services, less taxation
Who said anything about lower taxation?
You get the standard of service you pay for.
Yes, it is the time for Scotland to leave the UK.
Let’s see how well that works out for you. Probably about as well as the U.K. leaving Europe.
Let me say that for a person from North Borneo now living in the Toon (Tyne side), the only complaints I have are the winter, expensive restaurants (poor noodles) and perhaps people shouting for no reasons (you Brits(a term my Japanese friend used) like to shout a lot ...LOL!). If North Borneo my home town is that brilliant I won't be here but again I wanted to see the "world" but now stuck as I aged.
Few of my childhood friends have asking me to move to NZ/Oz but I told them I didn't want to be beaten up by the Islanders. LOL! No, the Islanders are friendly but they just don't like "foreigners" that much put it this way. I sense some sort of under current.
My view is that they are all just same shite different place but so long as you can cope with them you should be fine.
Given me the choice I would prefer Scandinavia but since I don't speak their language and some of them are slowly turning into a dump, I think UK is still the best for me ... sorry folks you just have to use me as fertiliser when my time is up. I ain't going back to North Borneo as the place is getting much more difficult for me to associate with and full of people that are just simply hostile towards each others.
OP, I don't know how your mental health is but if you cannot cope any longer than just go try it out but make sure you have backup plan. You don't try you don't know. Also, watch out it can be lonely at times. Yes, you can make friends but they are just friends.
Anyway, good luck with you decision.
I’m in Sydney, left the UK in 2005. Property is expensive here but not sure it’s significantly more unaffordable than London, and I earn more than I would doing the same job in the UK.
Cost of living is definitely getting more expensive with inflation higher than wages growth, but manageable for us earning slightly above average money. Quality of life is the thing for me here though, I live a 10min walk from the beach with decent riding close by and a 40min train from the city.
I didn’t have aging parents when I left but I do now which is going to make for some difficult times in the future.
Cost of living in NZ is significantly more expensive than Aus and wages are significantly lower. There’s lots of Kiwis here but not so many go the other way for good reason.
More equal countries are happier. Even the richest are happier in a more equal society. The UK has become more unequal and thus is a less happy place.
Our public services are shit compared to most other developed countries. Our infrastructure is shit. We have far more poverty. All as a result of deliberate tory policy since the 70s and only slightly ameliorated by a timid blair government
If you are not well paid you will probably be better off in other European countries with access to good secure rented property and decent public services. Well off middle class you will be less well off in purely monetary terms but so much better off in quality of life.
As above having spent months in western europe its become so obvious what a shithole the uk has ecome with the deliberate cruel policies towards the poor, the gutting of public services and the rampant corporate greed and profiteeering.
Compared to the rest of western Europe we look like a third world failed state
Its utterly disgusting
Moved to Vancouver in January and, on balance, it's probably more expensive. Groceries are more or less the same, petrol is much less, car insurance is ridiculous, housing is borderline unbelievable. BUT, this is moving from darkest Lincolnshire to a big city, so I think that probably compounds on the more expensive stuff. Not quite a fair swap in that regard.
I miss my family and friends so much, but going back to visit this summer really solidified that we'd probably made the right choice. Christ, the sun was shining, the birds were tweeting and Doncaster/Sheffield were still grim as owt....owt being a word which I can no longer use.
We also miss being able to travel Europe easily. We definitely took it for granted while we were there. A couple of hours on a plane and we could be in a completely different culture. 2 hours here and we're in, what, Calgary?!.... which I suppose is a somewhat different culture. Yeehaww.
Still, the biking is unbelievable. As is the hiking. Also there's skiing...and climbing...and kayaking...and Reuben sandwiches.
We moved to Spain three years ago and the economy is a state here. Tons of unemployment compared to the UK, especially youth unemployment, and wages are poor unless you are lucky to have a decent job with a multinational.
Yep,but it’s no different than the U.K.,If you’ve the coin it’s all fine and dandy it’s being poor that’s the problem.
I don’t think you can escape the U.K. that easy if you are struggling there as money is required for everything and you will have unexpected stuff to pay for (entry requirement to Spain are way higher as 3rd country status is crap.)
Although I’d say being poor in a country with a warmer climate and good riding is better than being in one that’s cold with bad riding and I’d also say the the Spanish are less fun suckers than the U.K.,they do like to party and shutting the roads for a bike race/party is the norm.
Compared to many places in Europe the UK is sit. Crap publuc services. Corrupt government. Angry unhappy people
Every country I have worked in people had similar complaints. With slight variation
More equal countries are happier. Even the richest are happier in a more equal society. The UK has become more unequal and thus is a less happy place.
I think you spend to much time reading reports, stats, studies, news etc these always give a very negative view of the world. Step away and you will be happier. Happiness is not achieved by comparison that is a sure way to be miserable
I've commented previously on other threads but any time I've been riding in rural Spain I've found the locals to be universally dour. Folk I've met when out and about in Scotland tend to be cheery - a wave, a smile, some small talk, sometimes breaking into long conversations. In Spain I've been ignored, had folk turn their backs or simply scowl. I'm miserable when I'm too warm so I just assumed they were too.
If the shit in the sea water is the biggest problem, move to Scotland where the state owned water company doesn't pay dividends to shareholders.
I can echo Caher's mention of parental support; mine in Co Waterford are very well looked after there by their community, both formally by the healthcare system and informally by the people around them. They settled very happily there some years back after spending several years extensively physically exploring the options, including N America and most of continental Europe. They had tired of cold rain and summer midges after a lifetime in the West Highlands.
Anyway, back in Scotland, I think we're fortunate to have a local Government that is trying to do more to support a decent way of life for a high proportion of the population. Not perfect, by any means but issues like land reform, access and affordable housing are going (slowly) in the right directions. Once we're away from Westmonster and back in Europe, we can look forward to a better future.
I left the UK about a decade and a half ago for Sweden.
Bought a fairly sizeable house (4 bed, 2 bath, massive kitchen/living rooms, massive garage) on a sizeable plot in the middle of a forest on the side of a river valley, 40 minutes drive from the centre of Göteborg.
That cost me about £110k (It was about 12-13 sek/gbp at the time). It's worth about £250k now, so not too bad as far as affordability goes. Done a lot of work on it though, which is expensive. Tradesmen get paid properly.
The right wing government isn't really that right wing TBH, just a lot more right than we're used to, the coalition also have SD who are racist, homophobic and sexist though. So it's going to be a weird few years.
I’ve yet to see these lands of milk and honey where they have great public services, less taxation, higher paying jobs and so on,
*My* total tax burden is a bit less here than in the UK, because i don't pay an additional grand and a half or whatever it is now in council tax, and there's no NI, which a lot of places use to skew the numbers, i've even seen some articles using our highest marginal rate as the rate on all salary...
I get paid well enough for what i do (and have a reasonable standard of living, which is more important). I also have good schools in striking distance (both primary and secondary) the roads are generally in good condition (better than where i used to live in the UK anyway!) Also got parks, playing fields, swimming pools, running tracks etc etc. All within reasonable cycling distance distance.
There is an additional tax burden that rests on the employer. About 20% i think.
You mention Sweden swinging to the right. A local friend's impression is that this is mostly about immigration and their far superior public investment is unlikely to change.
I lived there for 6 months and it was obvious even in that short time what the benefits are. The huge public safety net lets people take more risks with their jobs and so progress further, whilst maintaining a standard of life for those at the bottom. Public transport in the cities is excellent and cheap. There is much more equality, which mainly meant I had a much more diverse experience of work. And far from what the internet will tell you, they aren't all grumpy and shy, in fact far more people would chat on the bus than the miserable sods that live here.
I'm not convinced tax is wildly different than here. A friend in an equivalent job at Volvo gets paid a good whack more than me, with much better pension contributions (as good as UK public sector!). When he was on a similar amount to me, our gross and net salaries were both very similar.
I strongly contemplated moving back permanently but circumstances got in the way.
Edit - probably the biggest downside is the low availability of rentals in cities
More equal countries are happier. Even the richest are happier in a more equal society. The UK has become more unequal and thus is a less happy place.
Anyway, back in Scotland, I think we’re fortunate to have a local Government that is trying to do more to support a decent way of life for a high proportion of the population. Not perfect, by any means but issues like land reform, access and affordable housing are going (slowly) in the right directions.
I think this sums up where I am on a lot of it.
It's the inequality I am struggling with.
And I do appreciate that Scotland is trying, not perfect, but trying to make changes.
I wouldn't move south of the border again.
probably the biggest downside is the low availability of rentals in cities
Yeah, unless you have budget to buy, you could end up at the wrong end of a 5 year queue. Living in a series of second hand rentals.
I’ve commented previously on other threads but any time I’ve been riding in rural Spain I’ve found the locals to be universally dour
Really? My wife's from a very rural part of Spain, and I've always found the locals to be fairly cheerful. Always a "buenos días" or "hasta luego" when you run or ride past them.
Anyway, my thoughts FWTW: the UK isn't that bad. I get a lot of negative messages about the state of the country (admittedly a lot of them from here) but when I go back to London to see my daughter and father it's fine. I don't doubt for a second that Brexit is going to make things worse, but I don't think it'll we're talking armageddon here. No idea what the rest of the UK is like, though.
And Spain isn't a panacea, either. It does have serious unemployment problems in large parts of the country (not so much in Madrid or Barcelona), public services aren't great outside the main cities, the cost of housing (particularly rent) has rocketed up over the past few years, there's a far right party (Vox) that is unlikely to ever be voted in as the main party, but has formed part of coalition governments in the provinces, amongst other things. Same as any other country, they all have their issues.
More generally, the advice above about trying to move away from your problems is a good one. It might be sunnier in Spain (at least in the centre, in summer) but I still have to get up to go to work, pay the mortgage, take the dog out for a walk, etc etc.
All the people I care about are here(Tayside) and scattered around the UK,I would miss them too much if I left. I also like the population/traffic levels up here once you are a short distance out from the cities. Access to beautiful places is hassle free,riding is great and the weather on the East Coast is pretty good.I have stopped worrying about national politics and put my efforts in to local community projects(and people) where I can see positive change.There are still plenty of good humans around.
I think about it off and on but on balance I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather be. Luckily I'm rich enough to be insulated from the worst of things here, and old enough to not be worried about how my future career might pan out. There are lots of good people among all the ****ers, and the cycling and general lifestyle round here is great.
One thing I do highly recommend regardless of any permanent emigration plans is living abroad for a period of time. We had 13 years in Japan which was a great experience. But it's not somewhere I would have wanted to spend the rest of my life.
Also, I probably couldn't handle trying to learn a new foreign language again.
I’ve commented previously on other threads but any time I’ve been riding in rural Spain I’ve found the locals to be universally dour.
Really? I've found the opposite living here. As long as you speak a bit of Spanish most people love to have a good chat with you, even in the big cities.
Out and about in Andalucia, you can't get away from people sometimes. They'll tell you their life story.
The only dour people I've met here are British ex-pats and the odd grumpy waiter or shop worker.
Wife and I have been talking about this ever since we got together.
She is French and we live in Leicester, which over the last ten years has become a bit of ****hole.
Our plan was and still is to move to the South of France after our girls have been through university and finally fledged the nest. Due to the financial pressures on youngsters, finding long term secure work & accommodation. So, it looks like the plan may be pushed out a bit. We want out of Leicester, but it looks like we'll have to suck it up for a while longer.
I think you spend to much time reading reports, stats, studies, news etc these always give a very negative view of the world. Step away and you will be happier. Happiness is not achieved by comparison that is a sure way to be miserable
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Its not that at all. Itz walking and cycling round and seeing the reality. Its having friends and family in other coutries and understanding the reality. It not pretending Britain is great and sticking my fingers in my ears going lalalala.
Its not belieing the lies of the media
Its having a social conscience
Its really patonising to try to deny my experience
I use to run global teams, done it for a few companies. Staff were paid the market rate (or near enough) for doing the same jobs, but in different countries. UK, Europe (both North & South), North America and AsiaPac. Even with radically different salaries (both gross & net), pretty much they all had the same kinda lifestyle.
Although that's true to some extent it's probably more true in that/your particular job role and similar.
I'd agree that certain jobs are balanced as for no other reason than major multinationals do so deliberately with quite involved CoL indexes.
Supply and demand aside (which is probably a bad idea to emigrate permanently) countries like Norway a bus driver or checkout, office cleaner etc. will be paid a much higher wage than the UK, mid level tech type jobs will be about the same (all considered) and high level exec jobs much lower certainly on pure financial terms.
However, if you then look deeper or try to live life you realise that it's not simply financial without changing lifestyle. To use Norway as an example ... when I lived there (20 yrs ago) housing was much cheaper than most of the UK, houses were cheaper to run as they are much better insulated than most of the UK housing stock. Schools and childcare are properly free (not like the UK where parents are constantly asked to pay for stuff like Mufti day's etc)
On the other hand food in general is crippling, especially in Winter when growing/catching your own is nigh on impossible but eating/drinking out is horrendous.
These are really just examples off the top of my head... but if you are a bus driver with a family doesn't drink much and enjoys a bit of fishing and gardening in your considerable leisure time your standard of living would be quite a lot higher.
A bit tongue in cheek but I suspect if everyone who talks down and moans about the UK left, it would be a better place! I've traveled a fair bit and worked abroad, and can tell you the UK isn't a bad place to be on a world scale. Things could be improved, sure, but that's true everywhere. One thing I will say is it's different visiting somewhere on holiday to working there - the exotic and exciting does become ordinary and mundane over time. That's not to say you couldn't improve your situation but it might not be the UK that's the problem.
A bit tongue in cheek but I suspect if everyone who talks down and moans about the UK left, it would be a better place!
You'd also be left with the meatheads who rant about it being the best place on the planet, end of, but when asked why can only repeat their rant, with maybe an added "innit".
I’m moving to New Zealand in November after 24 years in Glasgow ( grew up in Somerset ) . Things are being made significantly easier for us as my wife is a kiwi and her dad has an empty house for us to move in to . I’ve loved living in Scotland but I certainly feel that there is an uncertainty around the future here , seeing what a disaster brexit has been has made me hesitant about the reality of Scottish independence, although I definitely understand the appeal .
I know NZ isn’t the land of milk and honey but I think my kids can have the possibility of a brighter future there , 30 kids in a class here to 15 in NZ is one example (were moving to a rural location , I’m sure it’s different in the Center of Auckland ) .
Nowhere in the world is immune to what is happening at the moment in terms of inflation but the UK does seem to me to be making life harder for itself at the moment with its choice of brexit and an incompetent government.
I know NZ isn’t the land of milk and honey but I think my kids can have the possibility of a brighter future there , 30 kids in a class here to 15 in NZ is one example (were moving to a rural location , I’m sure it’s different in the Center of Auckland ) .
Move to rural Scotland and you might find 15 per school, never mind per class! 🙂
You’d also be left with the meatheads who rant about it being the best place on the planet, end of
There's a fair few in between extremes though, most likely the majority. Overall the UK is an ok place to live, for most people anyway. Doesn't mean you can't find a better life elsewhere. But seeking a political utopia anywhere is going to be a big ask. If I was younger I'd consider moving abroad, even if it was just for the adventure.
A bit tongue in cheek but I suspect if everyone who talks down and moans about the UK left, it would be a better place! I’ve traveled a fair bit and worked abroad, and can tell you the UK isn’t a bad place to be on a world scale.
I've also worked abroad and travelled much and there are better places. Back in the mid 90's I thought the UK was a great place to live, maybe because I was young but I suspect this is because things have got so much worse faster here than other countries.
My wife is a euro-brat, grew up in Brussels with her parents working in the commission. We've lived and worked in the Netherlands for a while and travelled all over. Had offers to emigrate to the US, Oz and the Middle East. Always ended up making the decision to stay in the UK though. Partly for family and friends, partly for job opportunities at the time and partly because Scotland has always been home for me and I struggled to leave it behind. The Netherlands wasn't without it's issues either. The grass isn't always greener. But we're now both thoroughly sick of the politics and general malaise in the UK and I frequently wish we'd taken one of the offers to live somewhere else (not the ME though, never regretted turning that down). My wife really misses the multi-culturalism and vibrancy of mainland Europe, the UK really does feel dour these days. I doubt leaving the UK would ultimately make that much of a difference though, everyone everywhere is struggling. I am hoping that Truss is the final death throes of the past 12 years of Tory misrule and we might end up with something better. And I think it is better to stay here and try to help facilitate that change.
But seeking a political utopia anywhere is going to be a big ask.
There are many reasons to live elsewhere, better weather, bigger mountains, less people, nicer food etc. Politics IMO is not one of them. If the state of politics in the UK is making anyone think they should leave, then just stop watching the news.
For many people, it’s not “the news”, it’s watching their pay go less far, year after year. Look at the real wages of the lowest paid in the UK… compare that with… well, pick just about anywhere other than the USA. The depressing thing is that it’s irrelevant for them… as there isn’t a way out, they don’t have the means to move either. The “way out” is clear to those who are doing alright anyway, it isn’t for millions of people on lower incomes.
In my experience there are two types of people who talk about leaving the UK and there isn't a great deal of crossover between the two.
those who tell you how rubbish everything is here and how much greener the grass is somewhere else.
those who actually do it.
The UK is capable of being better, but also worse.
Re Swedish tax burden being similar - that may be true, but the childcare burden is non-existent, which is an absolutely massive thing. There are a great many people in the UK who want to work but can't, because they are single parents with kids. So they are a net expenditure for the government rather than a contribution. And this is not to blame the people themselves - it's a problem created by govt policy.
If Labour adopted free childcare as a policy they'd walk the next few elections and seal the policy into the nation forever, because lives would be built on it from middle to working classes. And the country would be far better for it.
As Caher above, Ireland specifically Iveragh peninsula. Mountains, nice beaches, good road cycling, hill walking seems to be the new cycling and Guinness
It would be slightly easier for us than lots as we have a house there already and property prices have gone up lots during, and post, COVID.
I’d probably be gone already if i didn’t have parental care duties, both my brothers have emigrated.
The UK is capable of being better, but also worse.
I find England to be pretty screwed at present, a general malaise, cheapness and f you attitude seems to permeate the country, coupled with crumbling infrastructure and a poor political ambit.
it’s watching their pay go less far, year after year.
If you can afford to emigrate then this really isn't an issue. Even when we were in the EU it was still very expensive. Have you seen the taxes and legal fees when buying french properties? Emigrating has almost always been a rich person's game.
If you can afford to emigrate then this really isn’t an issue.
It's like you didn't even read the post that you're quoting from.
Emigrating has almost always been a rich person’s game.
Really? Ten pound poms? Post war emigration to Canada? Clearances in an Gorta Mór? Clearances of the highlands?
It’s like you didn’t even read the post that you’re quoting from.
If you look carefully you'll see I'm agreeing with you 😀
Emigrating has almost always been a rich person’s game.
Or a poor person's game. Could one not just do what these dinghy chaps do - travel to a country of your choice on the other side of the world and then claim a house and some sweet, sweet benefits?
😀
🥴
The only dour people I’ve met here are British ex-pats and the odd grumpy waiter or shop worker.
TBH they moan about Spain and Home, I'm not sure if its an old person thing or they are just miserable fun suckers who happened to be old.
I'll agree thou working here is still work but tbh you could make every weekend a roadie 'training' camp experience if you so wished if your on the sunny end,(apart from miserable Dec/Jan/Feb).
I'm infuriated by the current politics and Brexit and happy to sit it out in the sun for a while but I dont have a downer for the UK, its always been shite if you were poor, they are just making more of you poorer so now its more noticeable when you feel the pinch.
Emigrating has almost always been a rich person’s game.
It's not Emigration thou having a house in two or more countries which is what the rich do 🙂
that may be true, but the childcare burden is non-existent, which is an absolutely massive thing.
Completely forgot about that, simply because it's so cheap. The money goes every month and it's only about 120 quid (and my kids are on the absolute maximum rate). It peaked at about 185 quid a month, for everything, for 2 kids with about 50 hours (each) of care at nursery.
If you can afford to emigrate then this really isn’t an issue. Even when we were in the EU it was still very expensive.
It really wasn't. I could have probably done it for under 1000 quid if i'd really wanted or needed to.
For anyone in a professional field or a home owner, it was almost as easy as moving house/job in the UK.
It only gets expensive if you simply can't leave auntie maudes dresser behind and need to move a large amount of gear. I did it in a LWB transit. With a bit more planning and time, i could have sold pretty much everything and done it in the car.
More than one of my non-Swedish mates has literally turned up on a flight with a suitcase or two with all their worldly belongings in and ended up staying here and settling.
Since Brexit it's got *REALLY* expensive, and difficult.
We moved from the Uk to France 5 years ago. We moved to my home town in southern France. Very rural. My eldest son hated it and now gone back to the uk. The other two are loving it. And my english wife loves it too.
Probably cost 2000 euros to move.
In the process of selling our uk house.
