[Closed] Is it racist...

Yes it does, but hit does not convey the same sense

How did I do?"This ruling represents a glimmer of hope in an otherwise bleak outlook"

would you use the term Oriental.to describe someone from India?

Conversely, in the US they'd say "Asian" to mean people of Chinese (etc) persuasion; indeed, it's the default meaning of that of that term there rather than what the Brits would understand by it. Is it helpful to lump Eastern and Southern Asia into one conglomerate mass?

None of you deserve to mix with society.

Well that's me cancelling my trip aboard the Orient Express. Bloody racist locomotive 🙄

It's not a term I've used since 1977, when I witnessed a chinese girl in my class (only ethnic minority in the town at the time) being reduced to tears by some numbskulls screaming it at her. Not cool to use it now imo.
We always have a chino anyway...

Is it helpful to lump Eastern and Southern Asia into one conglomerate mass?

No, I don't thinks so. Well, actually, I guess it helps some people, but it's all a bit Edward Said Orientalism, innit.

YOU can be racist without intent. I see this often. Old folk I work with who use racist stereotyping and terms without meaning it in any derogatory way at all. they don't realise they are being racist and they don't mean to be so but they are - just horrendously outdated ideas and language

Which left unchallenged will not change. Historically these terms go back to when discrimination was accepted. Things have moved on so they should no longer be used. Old fashioned racists that refuse to move on are still racist, it is just ingrained that the discrimination is perfectly reasonable. It's not.

Old fashioned racists that refuse to move on are still racist, it is just ingrained that the discrimination is perfectly reasonable.

Our old next-door neighbour was a very friendly and polite guy in his 70s. When they sold their house he came round to tell us that it was to a 'single woman, just in case you were worried there would be a family of ****s moving in'.

I didn't challenge him on it as I was so taken aback and it probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway.

Racists, racist apologists and the plain ignorant use these words.
If you don't want to belong to one of these categories, don't use the words.

Why would you possibly argue the point? Why are you so desperate to hang onto these outdated terminologies?

Very much this. Intent be damned, that's just another way of hiding and excusing racist behaviour. A few people here need to get out of the 1970's.

Directly offensive comments (eg, calling someone a chink as opposed to debating whether referring to a "chinky" take-away is racist or not) is similarly forbidden. Would we gain anything by adding "chink" to the swear filter? I doubt it, we'd just repeatedly hit the S****horpe problem.

So we can refer to shops owned by black people as **** shops then? And not be racist?

Our old next-door neighbour was a very friendly and polite guy in his 70s. When they sold their house he came round to tell us that it was to a 'single woman, just in case you were worried there would be a family of ****s moving in'.

I didn't challenge him on it as I was so taken aback and it probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway

I'm sure many of us would have reacted in the same way (as you, not the old neighbour!), and probably believed that telling him the error of his ways would have little impact. However, consider this scenario: You explain to your old neighbour why the terminology is wrong in a way that he is as 'taken aback' as you were by his original statement. Might make him realise that his language is offensive, and no longer acceptable. After all, ignorance is not an excuse.

Very much this. Intent be damned, that's just another way of hiding and excusing racist behaviour. A few people here need to get out of the 1970's.

Yep

Why would you possibly argue the point? Why are you so desperate to hang onto these outdated terminologies

Because it easily gets your knickers in a twist?

Because we'd rather believe that most folks in here are not like that neighbour

Because it easily gets your knickers in a twist?

Sexist 🙄

Transgenderist/crossdresserist.

Well that's me cancelling my trip aboard the Orient Express. Bloody racist locomotive

To be fair, all the murdering that happens aboard would put me off long before any association to racism.

I call that golden-brown MSG-laden slop n' chips that I so love - 'Chinglish'

ie: 'I could inhale a Chinglish curry about now! With loads of prawn crackers to scrape the container clean! Omnom etc.'

One race - the human race.
One rule - be excellent to one another.

I believe Chris Evans coined the phrase 'Chindian'. Having Chinese starters, Indian mains.

[img] [/img]

[quote=Tom_W1987 ]

Directly offensive comments (eg, calling someone a chink as opposed to debating whether referring to a "chinky" take-away is racist or not) is similarly forbidden. Would we gain anything by adding "chink" to the swear filter? I doubt it, we'd just repeatedly hit the S****horpe problem.

We can apparently debate whether referring to shops owned by black people as n**** shops is racist, so you're OK. Phew.

[quote=CharlieMungus ]How did I do?"This ruling represents a glimmer of hope in an otherwise bleak outlook"

Poorly, you had to also change another word. Unless you're suggesting that "light" should also be added to the swear filter, because it's used in conjunction with chink?

Always think asking for chips / curry sauce in a Chinese takeaway is insulting.

quick update from the OP

I have fed back to my chinese mate that he is to stop refering to his takeaway as a 'chinky' on the advice of the STW majority.

He is happy to comply to avoid any accusations of casual or indavertant racism

thanks all

This ruling represents a glimmer of light in an otherwise bleak outlook"?

I have fed back to my chinese mate that he is to stop refering to his takeaway as a 'chinky' on the advice of the STW majority.

He is happy to comply to avoid any accusations of casual or indavertant racism

Well, he can freely continue use it amongst that group as no one there finds it troublesome. Only when used in wider society might it be an issue.

Nevertheless, it sounds like it is another victory for us hand-wringing lefties, first Drac and now your Asian mate.

Unless you're suggesting that "light" should also be added to the swear filter, because it's used in conjunction with chink?

Some other dual-meaning words to consider adding:

ape, crow, eggplant, monkey, spade, gin, nip, cracker, yank, Oreo, apple, banana, coconut, flip, jock, shine, skip, spook

Isn't language fun?

Always think asking for chips / curry sauce in a Chinese takeaway is insulting.

I find that Catholic-grade self-induced guilt neither aids my digestion nor improves the (already excellent) flavour. Although must admit, when ordering from local Cantonese I have this mental image in my mind of a giant Hong Konger chef in the sky. He looks sadly down at me, shaking his tearful face in sorrow at my unnecessary Chinglishness-ness which forces him to continue offering the unholy and evidently racialisticulous and patronisingist menu items.

I similarly insult the Cornish by buying G*nsters. Emmetastic.

I have fed back to my chinese mate that he is to stop refering to his takeaway as a 'chinky' on the advice of the STW majority.

Make sure he doesn't call the food "oriental" either, because we've apparently established that's offensive too.

It's far too general. It's like saying European or Chinese.

Unless you're suggesting that "light" should also be added to the swear filter, because it's used in conjunction with chink?

I'm not. I didn't so much change another word as use another phrase which conveyed the same sentiment.
Trying to demonstrate that adding chink to the swear filter might be a helpful thing and demonstrate some commitment to restrict the use of racist terminology, without limiting our ability to describe certain situations

Unless you're suggesting that "light" should also be added to the swear filter, because it's used in conjunction with chink?

I'm not. I didn't so much change another word as use another phrase which conveyed the same sentiment.
Trying to demonstrate that adding chink to the swear filter might be a helpful thing and demonstrate some commitment to restrict the use of racist terminology, without limiting our ability to describe certain situations

I have fed back to my chinese mate that he is to stop refering to his takeaway as a 'chinky' on the advice of the STW majority.

Brilliant, well done. Hopefully in turn he educated you that taking a single example where someone finds something acceptable doesn't make it universally so.

Make sure he doesn't call the food "oriental" either, because we've apparently established that's offensive too.

Now, where did we do that?

Trying to demonstrate that adding chink to the swear filter might be a helpful thing

Out of interest, aside from threads specifically talking about racial terms, have you ever seen anyone use the word "chink" as a racial insult on here?

Wouldn't it be more reasonable if we simply reported a post if it ever comes up, rather than branding people racists for innocently using the word without any [b]intent[/b]* to offend?

* there's that "intent" thing again. Keeps cropping up.

[quote=CharlieMungus ]Unless you're suggesting that "light" should also be added to the swear filter, because it's used in conjunction with chink?
I'm not. I didn't so much change another word as use another phrase which conveyed the same sentiment.
Trying to demonstrate that adding chink to the swear filter might be a helpful thing and demonstrate some commitment to restrict the use of racist terminology, without limiting our ability to describe certain situations

It's a slippery slope (DYSWIDT?) to start substituting perfectly innocent phrases simply because there is an offensive meaning to one of the words in the phrase when used in a completely different context, particularly when the derivation of the offensive use of the word is completely different to the derivation of the non-offensive use. Though Graham S has helpfully expanded this argument by providing a list of other words you presumably want to add to the swear filter.

Though Graham S has helpfully expanded this argument by providing a list of other words you presumably want to add to the swear filter.

Why would you presume that?

Because the argument for adding them is exactly the same as the argument you're using for adding chink.

The whole swear filter thing... It's not supposed tob be an exhaustive list of acceptable or unacceptable words, it's a shortlist of commonly used unacceptable words. It's not a bloomin whitelist or a set of rules for you to live by. Obvious why **** might be on it when more offensive, rarely used words aren't.

Out of interest, aside from threads specifically talking about racial terms, have you ever seen anyone use the word "chink" as a racial insult on here?

No, but there are lots of words banned on the basis that they are offensive

[quote=GrahamS ]Out of interest, aside from threads specifically talking about racial terms, have you ever seen anyone use the word "chink" as a racial insult on here?

I figured there were a couple of ways to answer that question:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/search.php?search=chink&advanced=1&exact=1&posts=1&highlight=1&users=0&located=0&forums%5B%5D=0&maxcount=100&age=999999&direction=0&sort=date&order=0
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Asingletrackworld.com%20chink

CBA going through the whole list, but I'm only finding innocent use or discussion of whether the term is racist.

[quote=CharlieMungus ]No, but there are lots of words banned on the basis that hey are offensive

Yes, words which have no non-offensive derivation 🙄

Why does that matter?

Does that mean **** is OK?

Brilliant, well done. Hopefully in turn he educated you that taking a single example where someone finds something acceptable doesn't make it universally so.

um...no if you read what I wrote its him that requires educating on this point quit clearly ...

keep up 😉

...no if you read what I wrote its him that requires educating on this point quit clearly

Because you already understood it?

CharlieMungus - Member 
Does that mean **** is OK?

Only if your name is Tarantino

Obvious why **** might be on it when more offensive, rarely used words aren't.

People keep saying this is obvious. It really isn't. Swear words are banned because they are offensive. That's the reason given. Because it is a family friendly forum.
We can discuss whether or not chinky or **** are offensive, but not discuss whether or not **** is offensive. It's not obvious! I really don't see why one set of offensive words is allowed, but another set, not.

If nothing else, it might help people to realise that the word chinky is not ok. Because clearly some people socialise in communities where it is acceptable and this might be the only place where they realise it is problematic

Because it's not about "allowed" or not, as I said it's not a whitelist for anything that's not on the filter, or an exhaustive list of bad words- it's an automated shortlist of common words that they don't want on the forum at all, to simplify moderation. It doesn't mean words that aren't on the filter aren't offensive, or are allowed, it just means they're not on the filter. Cross a line when using a non-filtered word and you'll feel the wrath of mod.

The obvious part is use or not. If chink was being regularily used as an insult on here I bet it'd be on the filter. But since it isn't, it doesn't have to be. And some of the banned words will probably have legitimate, nonoffensive uses but are still banned because they overwhelmingly get used the other way.

> "we've apparently established that [Oriental is] offensive too."
Now, where did we do that?

Erm.. the points where you explained why you don't particularly like it and think it is only used because my "local population" is too stupid and backwards to understand that it cause offence. (Bit racist that incidentally)

sounds like it is another victory for us hand-wringing lefties,

It's certainly a funny sort of liberalism that seeks to ban words.

[quote=CharlieMungus ]If nothing else, it might help people to realise that the word chinky is not ok. Because clearly some people socialise in communities where it is acceptable and this might be the only place where they realise it is problematic

Yet you're also wanting to ban "chink", and through the links above I found scores of places where it was being used in a totally non-offensive way.

I've already written this a few times but you don't seem to be paying attention - the words which are on the filter have no non-offensive use (which isn't derived directly from the offensive meaning). And in case you want to go there, my first post on this thread was to agree with you that n**** could happily be added to the filter.

Haiku Thread summary time.......

Some bad words are banned
Other bad words are not banned
They're still all bad words

haiku fail - with only one exception we've found so far, the words which aren't banned aren't inherently bad words.

It's certainly a funny sort of liberalism that seeks to ban words.

I used to call imported nintendo games 'JAP Imports', until someone from Japan asked me to use JPN instead. So I did and was glad he informed me that people might have interpreted it in a negative way.

haiku fail - with only one exception we've found so far, the words which aren't banned aren't inherently bad words.

This merely shows a distinct lack of imagination . I can think of a fair few racist terms which have absolutely no positive connotations that i'll wager are not included in the swear filter.

but, OK - fixed

Some bad guys are banned
Other bad guys are not banned
They're still all bad guys

aracer - Member

haiku fail - with only one exception we've found so far, the words which aren't banned aren't inherently bad words.

[quote=AlexSimon ]Who said anything about banning.

er, CM certainly seems quite keen on it.

[quote=perchypanther ]I can think of a fair few racist terms which have absolutely no positive connotations that i'll wager are not included in the swear filter.

Go on then...

Who said anything about banning.

Charlie did.

Assuming I'm allowed to say "Charlie" now, given that it is an ethnic slur for white people AND people from Vietnam 😉

And "Mungus" is no doubt a reference to the [url= http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/hugh-mungus ]sexual harrasment of a Black Lives Matter activist[/url] of course.

Erm.. the points where you explained why you don't particularly like it and think it is only used because my "local population" is too stupid and backwards to understand that it cause offence. (Bit racist that incidentally)

Ok, you're just making stuff up now.I didn't say it was offensive, i didn't like it . The rest is just fantasy! amazing the lengths you will go to!

edited for clarity

Go on then...

Nope. Banned..... by my own internal filter.

As it should be.

er, CM certainly seems quite keen on it.

That's not consistent at all, for reasons I've given so many times now I CBA typing it again. Why don't you try clicking on one of those links I gave earlier to see the huge problem offensive use of "chink" is on here.

I used to call imported nintendo games 'JAP Imports', until someone from Japan asked me to use JPN instead. So I did and was glad he informed me that people might have interpreted it in a negative way.

During WWII We fought the "Japs" in the east but only fought fully paid up members of the Nazi party in the West. 😕

That's not consistent at all, for reasons I've given so many times now I CBA typing it again.

no need, i understand what you said, i just don't agree

[quote=perchypanther ]Nope. Banned..... by my own internal filter.
As it should be.

Well that's helpful. Can we try this another way then since I'm struggling to think what you're referring to - are you referring to the terms in Graham S's list: http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/is-it-racist/page/10#post-8364527

It's certainly a funny sort of liberalism that seeks to ban words.

You can argue that "oops, I've *ed it up" isn't offensive, but would you say that in front your mother? I wouldn't.

The filter is a blunt instrument, it's not intended to be a definitive list. It's simply there to stop a descent into chaos. There's nothing to stop you self-moderating words you find offensive, if you like. It would seem that we're all quite happy to write "chinky" rather than c**. I wonder why that might be?

Given the choice between censorship and not when something is unclear, personally I'd always err on the side of not. If we jumped on every post that contained a word that could possibly be interpreted as offensive if you really tried hard enough, this would be a very draconian place. Is that really what you want? Sounds like a slippery slope to me. Er, oops.

Self-policing is better than overbearing moderation, is it not? I thought we were all supposed to be grown-ups.

Charlie did.

Charlie - give it a break! Bottom line - unlike some forums, there has been a sensible, reasoned debate about this word. As Perchy says, our own internal filters are enough.

[quote=Cougar ]You can argue that "oops, I've *ed it up" isn't offensive, but would you say that in front your mother? I wouldn't.

Exactly - or would you say "I t*ed him"? I'd certainly happily say "chink of light" or "chink in the armour".

The words aren't equivalent in the way CM keeps trying to argue - I don't think it's even a matter of opinion.

Ok, you're just making stuff up now.I didn't say it was offensive, i didn't like it . The rest is just fantasy!

You didn't say my local population was too stupid to understand?

Ahem...

The fact that 'orientals' round your way use it reflects perhaps that some people have given up.trying to educate the local population about the differences and instead just accepted the terminology of the locals

Although really I'm not sure what "locals" you refer to as there are plenty of international businesses and establishments that use "oriental" too

I thought we were all supposed to be grown-ups.

we are, but it doesn't stop people from trying justify use of the word 'chinky'. If it was banned, we wouldn't need this long arguments, people would know that it was offensive (to some)

Ok, you're just making stuff up now.I didn't say it was offensive, i didn't like it . The rest is just fantasy!
You didn't say my local population was too stupid to understand?

Ahem...

The fact that 'orientals' round your way use it reflects perhaps that some people have given up.trying to educate the local population about the differences and instead just accepted the terminology of the locals

Nope, still don't see it

...of course there are also other things in the "swear filter" - though this thread was too long already when I first opened it and I struggle with long sentences so it might have already been mentioned 😉

Nope, still don't see it

Racists never do. 😉

Also you haven't clarified if I should be similarly offended when someone uses "European" or "Western" or "Occidental"

Isn't that pretty equivalent to "Oriental"?

As you put it [i]"a very generic term... a compromise term.whichbi don't particularly like ... A way of covering up.the fact.that you don't know where people are from but look a bit like these other people who are from out that way."[/i]

Also you haven't clarified if I should be similarly offended when someone uses "European" or "Western" or "Occidental"

I struggle with long sentences

also caught by the I N R A T S filter then?

"we are, but it doesn't stop people from trying justify use of the word 'chinky'. If it was banned, we wouldn't need this long arguments, people would know that it was offensive (to some)"

On the other hand Chinky in the description of food sense is not banned by STW and isn't listed as derogatory in the Dictionary. Plus in 2002 the BBC said it wasn't racist after it featured in am episode of Vicar of Dibley.

So I reckon it *isn't* racist and a handful of people are falsely claiming it is.

On the other hand Chinky in the description of food sense is not banned by STW and isn't listed as derogatory in the Dictionary. Plus in 2002 the BBC said it wasn't racist after it featured in am episode of Vicar of Dibley.

and subsequently? .... what is the position 15 years later? c'mon tell the full story

isn't listed as derogatory in the Dictionary.

yes, you can find dictionaries which list it as such, but also others which list it as offensive?

I checked Dictionary.com yesterday and it didn't list Chicky meals as racist or derogitory.

I don't have access to the OED but if anyone else does I'm happy to take the OED as definitive on the current status of the term in that context.

In the meantime I'm seeing no evidence that the word in that context is derogitory or racist, except a handful of keyboard warriors who for all I know could be making it up.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/chinky

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/chinky

I don't have access to the OED but if anyone else does I'm happy to take the OED as definitive on the current status of the term in that context.

The [url= https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/chinky ]OED online[/url] defines it as [i]informal, offensive[/i] (though granted the online edition is a pretty poor reference compared to the real thing)

They also list "oriental" as [i]offensive[/i]. 😕

If it was banned, we wouldn't need this long arguments,

How naive.

If it were banned, we'd have long arguments about a) why it was banned and whether it was ridiculous and heavy-handed and how we're all PC leftie hand-wringers, and b) why a gazillion other words weren't similarly censored when "chinky" is. Plus everyone would just start writing "chinkie" anyway.

We're damned either way, can't please everyone.