[Closed] is it any wonder nothing gets done H&S stupidy red tape rant

To be fair, as an employer most of that should be in place anyway, shouldn't it?

is it no wonder nothing gets done

Double negatives aside it strikes me that actually quite a lot gets done.

I'd have thought all of that has to be in place already? Just kept in a handy file incase something happens, maybe given to new starters or staff annually to remind them?

+1 surely you should have all of them apart from the 3 relating to [i]Learners[/i].

It's political correctness gone mad. You couldn't make it up.

Etc.

Could you not rearrange it for another day?
That gives you more time to get the list sorted and the lad a chance......

You ought to try having a work experience placement youngster for a few weeks, he or she having an accident, and you not having all of the above in place. See how much time that'll take you to sort out.

All these things are complied with as I said everything we do is as correct as we can possibly be And yes of course, To provide insurers details etc and fire extinguisher certificates is fine. But much of what is being asked is written documents prepared specifically for this 5 day placement. I have taken on short work experience placements before about 10 years ago and it was a far more sensible procedure based on common sense by the careers people. Fine if thats the way its got to be nowadays, but I know of very few small businesses on the scale of ours. That would have the time to prepare all this to simply help someone.

I remember many years ago after I started a YTS with the forestry commission (later went on to work for them from that) - The placement inspector came round, and the entire college/YTS system nearly went into meltdown over their need for insurance documents meeting the doctrine of crown immunity 8)

I must confess to being a touch conflicted on this matter, on the one hand the U.K.'s record in reducing
Workplace accidents and fatalities is something we should all take pride in, there are thousands of people watching their children grow up who wouldn't be here without the hard work that went into this.

On the other foot...

This has been at the cost of creating a whole certain breed of officious little hitlers whose sole purpose in life is to enforce regulations so Byzantine and vague that the question of whether they'll pull you apart rests more on which side of the bed they got out of that morning than the actual safety of anyone.

Workplaces were completely arsehole free before H&S and PC Brigades. Now they're full of them.

"very rarely" or never take on work experience lads ?

ok seen note ref 10 years ago - well blame the insurers and litigation

dont blame the lad .

Is it any different if a work experience lad or a permanent employee has an accident? Not as far as I know? Which is why we do everything that is required to cover all bases. So if God forbid anyone did hurt themselves then we could show that we have done what is required as our responsibility as an employer. I am not suggesting that the placement staff are being unreasonable by demanding a full portfolio of documentation be prepped within a couple of hours, but I am just left at a loss that with this level of redtape, that small businesses like ours just dont need the hassle. And to me thats just a bit of a shame

Ask the college for their risk / benefit document on the placement.
Also, refer them to HSE's page on school and college trips. I quote the high level statement:
.
[b][i]HSE's statement makes clear:
that the focus should be on how the real risks arising from such visits are managed and not on paperwork;
the need for a proportionate and sensible approach for planning and organising off-site activities;
that those organising visits should simplify the planning process and authorisation arrangements for visits that involve everyday risks;
that HSE's primary interest is real risks arising from serious breaches of the law. Any HSE accident investigation will be targeted at these issues.[/i][/b]

Young people in working environments are pretty much most at risk as they are young dum and full of cum in the bravado sense of the word, they are also most likely to feel pressured to do something that they probably shouldn't, just to fit in, make the boss happy etc.

The stuff you have been asked for is stuff that you should have anyway,

If anything, the notice for you to gather this info is a bit off but that's about it IMO.

As deadly points out, be unfortunate enough to have a member of staff in a workplace accident and if the above isn't in place, your feet won't touch. The HSE have some serious powers too.

I used to help out my local secondary school, by giving a few lads a weeks placement about 10years ago. With the day to day involvement in trying to keep things going, and also an increasing realisation that the redtape surrounding these placements was getting more and more involving that despite being asked many times I had avoided it of recent years. Until I was asked recently by person above. My thoughts were, ok I'd like to help out again in this case. The lads keen, genuinely shows an interest in our product, so how much hassle could it be? Its not opportunity missed for me, it wont make a single difference to me, in fact during the busy period we are having at the moment it would be a lot easier not to take him on. Just sad that he misses out

This is about the college covering their back after approving a placement.

Yes it is different if a young person has an accident. The HSE will want to know what controls you put in place to protect vulnerable employees for a start. Your risk assessments should take into account the experience and knowledge of the people doing the task as it affects the likelihood of the hazard being realised.

Young people with no factory experience are far more likely to get hurt than an old hand.

If your risk assessments don't take account of this then I respectfully suggest that your assessments are not suitable and sufficient for a young person to join you. This is fairly common which is why schools and colleges ask to see assessments before allowing the placement.

I must confess to being a touch conflicted on this matter, on the one hand the U.K.'s record in reducing
Workplace accidents and fatalities is something we should all take pride in, there are thousands of people watching their children grow up who wouldn't be here without the hard work that went into this.

This is the bit everyone seems to forget about.

Workplaces were completely arsehole free before H&S and PC Brigades.

Largely due to Darwinism.

Only 4, 5 & 12 on your list is specific to the young individual and wouldn't take long to do at all. Everything else you should already have in place. What's the big deal?

The only gripe you should have here is the short notice to look out these items. That's got nothing to do with H&S and everything to do with poor admin on the college side.

The reason that all the documents / policies are requested is that as the learner is on a government funded programme the College is responsible for there safety, health and welfare. I have admit it does seem a tad excessive at very short notice although it is a standard request that a College or other training provider would make

I used to work for a training provider that delivered NVQ programmes in the construction industry, we had to explain to 6 foot 6 hard as nails construction workers that we were responsible for their safeguarding and if they felt that they were being bullied etc they should report it to us.

Largely due to Darwinism.

Yes, employees dying from a lack of H&S legislation is largely down to Darwinism.

Doesn't look all that onerous to me. Treat it as an excuse to get your paperwork in order then you'll (a) be ready for the next work experience placement and (b) if you haven't got the basic stuff in place (ie fire safety) you're going to find out the nice way.

Well, I think the OP has a point. My son did work experience (in 3rd year Secondary) last year and the one thing the youngsters were not allowed to do was trades (plumbing, electrician or joiner).Apparently you are likely to kill yourself when you pick up a screwdriver..
These trades are where there is guaranteed employed for the foreseeable future and exactly what work experience is supposed to do; give those likely to leave at the end of 4th Year a taste of their likely job market!

Well, I think the OP has a point. My son did work experience (in 3rd year Secondary) last year and the one thing the youngsters were not allowed to do was trades (plumbing, electrician or joiner).Apparently you are likely to kill yourself when you pick up a screwdriver..

Hyperbole apart, were I to take a lad for a few weeks work experience, I could be working in someone's house close to water and gas pipes, lifting great big piles of timber up a few flights of stairs, working on an upper floor with no stairs, on a site where it's 110V only, and a multitude of other things where it's probably not best for an early-teenager to be hanging around. Plenty of time for them to learn properly as an apprentice.

Could you offer the lad a temp job for a week or two in the hols? That would serve the same purpose while avoiding the college input.

2. Insurance company name

LOL

While it looks/sounds excessive you could probably get it all down on a couple of sheets of A4.

My son is hopefully going to the local gun shop for his work-experience... 🙂

I really dont see what the problem is

If all of these things are in place already (and they all seem pretty standard) how hard is it to show them to the inspector?

Ive spent the last 15 year working in a molecular biology lab,
try being the lab H&S bod, on a surprise government inspection when you're working daily with retroviruses designed to enter mammalian cells and cause various types of cancer, E. Coli modified to produce cancer causing growth factors,biological compounds labelled with tritium p32 and gawd knows what other radioactive shit that your team leaders had since the 70s.
Chemicals that make you mutate, infertile, blind, blister, fluoresce, bald ,deaf, stop your heart, paralyse, irritate, suffocate, give you cancer, grow breasts, mutate your unborn child, give you more cancer, plus acids, alkalis, flamables, compressed gas cylinders, huge tanks of liquid nitrogen at -200C, bunsen burners, mercury thermometers, 20 year old unlabeled bits of patients in formaldehyde jars at the backs of cupboards, various diseases eg HIV, Malaria, TB, Herpes, centrifuges that spin over 150000rpm, sonicators, autoclaves, lasers, and electrophoresis tanks that separate dna buy running a current through high salt solutions and ****ing latex gloves that give you excema (-that last one, you have no idea how much time ive spent dealing with that)

we regularly take work experience school kids on in the summer

Ok, the college were mad to ask for that at 4pm for a 9am meeting, but (provided you don't let him drive the van) most of it you should already have and the rest is learner specific and not unreasonable.
If you had an accident the HSE were interested in they wouldn't be asking you to write a document they'd be asking to see it pronto and can you prove you enforced the policy not just paid lip service to it.

We take it seriously and we've reduced safety incidents by 80% in 20 years, but our industry will always be dangerous, not unsafe but definitely dangerous, and occasionally even with the H&S procedures in place and being encouraged, cajoled and if necessary stamped into place people get badly hurt. We don't stop concentrating on safety until they stop getting hurt - and probably not then either.

I really dont see what the problem is

I do.
I work for a larger organisation than the OP, and we have the odd work experience person, and yes all the things listed on that list exist. But sure as hell couldn't get hold of them for 9am if being requested at 4pm.
Nor would I really be interested in doing so at any other time. It really is a complete ball ache if it's not your prime activity.

Strange coincidence but I today I was testing a 5KV Isotachophoresis system I've just built 🙂

Chemicals that make you mutate, infertile, blind, blister, bald ,deaf, stop your heart, paralyse, irritate, suffocate, give you cancer, grow breasts, mutate your unborn child, give you more cancer,

Good gods, are the Daily Mail aware of these chemicals? That's a year's worth of front pages.

I bet the chemicals have foreign sounding names too!

14 reads as if they're just padding out the H&S audit by throwing in something they've heard in the pub.

We had all of the info in a specially designed (by clueless fkwits) piece of software that COSSH etc for all the chemicals were stored in

items 6-16 would be kept in a folder by the door as you enter (had to be review and updated an[s]nu[/s]al[s]l[/s]y)
1-5 Id just email site management theyd probably get it too me in time

to be fair this was in a large institute of a few hundred people with a dedicated H&S staff of 3 people

Reads like a pretty bog standard approved contractor list of requirements really. You can be sure the dry corporate robots the world over make a living from that stuff day in, day out.

I've had to ask employers for this when arranging placements, it's bloody embarrassing all the stuff they require, but I always gave the list of things required as one of the first documents I provided, and broke it down so it didn't look like some kind of list of ransom demands - never had an employer pull out on me because of it. There is a lot more of it in FE colleges than elsewhere in my experience - due to the general privatisation of the FE system.

Doesnt look anything unusual really.

The problems is when you have not done this before (and probably should have) so have to run around putting it all together.

Once you have it all sorted out you can re-use it again with minimal afford and if you have ever been involved in an industrial incident then you would probably be glad of having the relevant stuff in place, both so everything is done right at the time and to cover your arse in the fallout.

Well I'm really glad I just do domestic joinery and don't do site work because when I see guys clipped to safety lines, wearing hard hats, earmuffs, safety goggles, gloves and lugging 110v trannies around, I just think that I just couldn't be ars*d with all that (let alone how you don't cut your fingers off cause you can't see what you're doing!).
I do wonder also how all the H+S fans on here have gravitated into mountain biking?? It's way, way more dangerous than say rock climbing on naturally protected cliffs. 😯

If the lad really wants to do it then just let him come for a week in half term then don't have to bother with that and he can still add it on his CV

No matter how you look at it, the timing's crap. The rest seems reasonable enough- yes it does blur over from "H&S stuff we need to do" to "stuff that's a good idea to stop us from getting the balls sued off us", but it's not unreasonable to be averse to getting your balls sued off. And frankly the college has a responsibility to you, too, so you also don't get your balls sued off.

You are of course welcome to powersaw your balls off, as long as you're wearing a hardhat and a class 2 vest. Everyone knows you can't be harmed as long as you've got them on.

Everyone knows you can't be harmed as long as you've got them on.

It's less likely you will be harmed by others. Nothing can stop you powersawing your own balls off - if you really want to - except maybe chain-mail pants.

To be fair you should have all this in place already, except the 3 relating to learners
I agree the notice is short, maybe you can pull everything together so that next time it wont be an issue

To be honest, and I hate red tape, but if somebody walked into our place this morning I could hand them all that info. It's just standard procedure, especially when dealing with colleges and schools.

I run a small yet relatively succesful manufacturing businesses specializing in [b]quite[/b] unique products.

Is it any different if a work experience lad or a permanent employee has an accident?

i would expect that the work experience lad is classed as a member of public, not an employee, for which you have a different duty of care for.

i would expect that the work experience lad is classed as a member of public, not an employee, for which you have a different duty of care for.

bang on Thom, he was far more interested in our public liability cover than employers.

I do wonder also how all the H+S fans on here have gravitated into mountain biking?? It's way, way more dangerous than say rock climbing on naturally protected cliffs.

No one makes us go mtbing, do they? We assess the risk and choose whether to do it or not.

H&S is there to make employers put proper risk assessment in place and manage it rather than just let their employees pay the price.

Back to the OP, it's the timing that's piss poor but then I think that the OP has come to the same conclusion.

[b]Chemicals that make you[/b] mutate, infertile, blind, blister, [b]fluoresce[/b], bald ,deaf, stop your heart, paralyse, irritate, suffocate, give you cancer, grow breasts

Where can I get hold of some of these chemicals that will make me fluoresce? They sound great!

BTW, I'm very much in favour of Safety and Health, individually or together.

Back to the OP, it's the timing that's piss poor but then I think that the OP has come to the same conclusion.

Thats about the size of it in fairness.

We run a lawful and ethical business where everything is in place. I have 12 staff, all good lads who we keep on through good times and bad, although that sometimes means grafting our arses off 🙂 We give them a safe and pleasant environment to work in and we train in-house, many of these lads would be lost to the job market round here, as most have little or no acedemic achievement, and have been given an opportunity here on practical skill, intelligence and good work ethic. For the most part are developed into skilled lads who I believe enjoy their job and get satisfaction from being involved in making a product from drawing board (or CAD screen now 🙂 to final finish and delivery to customer.
The redtape is not mine or anyone elses primary task in our business due to the size, but we get it done on time and make damn sure everything is transparent and totally correct its just that its no individuals actual full time project. Which explains why its a ball-ache to compile it and be grilled on it, I never suggested that it wasnt all there. Which is why I havent had "my arse sued off" as sensitively insinuated that I probably deserve, because I happened to stupidly vent a frustration about it on a MTB internet forum. No despite not deserving to be told that my company is probably not fit for the responsibility of having a work experience placement, and that the suggestion that I am completely negligent to my staff. I probably did deserve some stick for putting the OP on in the first place. It was just a frustrating predictable request at riducously short notice by a government funded body after having said that I'd like to help a young lad get a work placement, and daftly I vented it through a MTB internet forum, which is well known for sweeping generalisations and its fair share of know it alls.
So I did expect and deserve some stick for that.

All being said the assessor was a real world guy who was in the manufacturing industry for 25 years before dropping into education, and he know exactly what the score was and made life easy. So win win the student comes at half term.

Anyhow back to my CAD duties I am busy designing a crash helmet with integrated goggles for children to wear whilst playing with Lego 😉

chickenman - Member

I do wonder also how all the H+S fans on here have gravitated into mountain biking?? It's way, way more dangerous than say rock climbing on naturally protected cliffs.

really?

i've always felt it's the other way round.

if you don't like the look of the trail ahead of you, you can stop, get off and walk/carry through it.

if you don't like the look of the route above you, your options can get very limited, very quickly.

let's be honest, a lot of mountain biking looks about as dangerous as this:

[img] [/img]

but even a Vdiff looks like this:

[img] [/img]

(and often has big chunks of rock falling off it)

Milestone Buttress?

Anyhow back to my CAD duties I am busy designing a crash helmet with integrated goggles for children to wear whilst playing with Lego

- It will need to have some sort of mouthpiece to prevent the chilren from eating said Lego pieces which could eeezily be confised with candy!

- Crash helmet could be marketed to parents in case they step on a Lego while walking around without shoes on

I was putting some posters up for a mate at a sports convention (in Australia) and they insisted we had viz vests and hard hats. These were posters, on a wall .....

We keep falling over (trip hazard!) the "You can't train them, You are not trained to be a trainer" scenario.
Cooncil Landlords and Board that default to panic but have no money for....training the trainer.

All those H&S courses and advice on measuring competence from a very reasonable reassuring Tutor wasted.

The task - Moving a stack of 10 plastic chairs on a chair trolley.

Chemicals that make you mutate, infertile, blind, blister, bald ,deaf, stop your heart, paralyse, irritate, suffocate, give you cancer, grow breasts, mutate your unborn child, give you more cancer,

and yet due to this gang in powers decision to stop sickness benefit, youre still in elligible.

as for stupid H and S rules,our local TOOLSTATION branches have decided that all staff must wear rubber industrial gloves, trying to get money out of the till or picking up small parts is a laugh for us customers as they struggle, and then put the highly /dangerous /contaminated /sharp parts in a bright yellow carier bag and hand it to us.

So the lad just faces the same souless placement in a massive corporation. And leaves you feeling like they are doing you favour. Is it any wonder why our enginering and manufacturing industries are dying

i would expect that the [b]work experience lad[/b] is classed as a member of public, not an employee, for which you have a different duty of care for.

It seems basic stuff tbh and the other view is college sends inexperienced student to workplace with unsafe machinery and poor practice and they get injured.

If it was my child i would want some checks in place and tbh any workplace should have all that anyway.

12 minutes of your life please.

*Bit slow to start but stick with it.

I have all certificates like that on display in my office and can print the policies off within minutes.

As said by others most of that list should be on display anyway.

I sympathize with the OP but has s/he actually called the person who sent the checklist through and said "I don't have all of this stuff on tap, can you help me when we actually meet?"

It sounds like they might have just sent across the usual checklist and they might not be expecting a perfect response. Appreciate that the OP is doing a kid a favour etc...

re: To be fair, as an employer most of that should be in place anyway, shouldn't it?

I run a small business as well, for over 10 years, and while if you have been in business for a while you no doubt have everything you need in place, what we definitely do not have is time!

There are many, many things I want/need to do for my business that take far less time that spending a half or a whole day with someone to go over what is already done; from updating the marketing collateral I have had since April last year but not found the time to go over and implement, to having a coffee or a drink with some suppliers / clients, etc. etc, etc...

So having the time to take half or a whole day to go through what they probably should have a reference of anyway, and potentially open yourself up to the fact that the person who comes might be having a bad day and open a can of worms, etc... why would you for a 5 day placement?

It's a bit daft that the college doesn't just do a 'could you please confirm in writing that you have the following in place?' rather than actually going through the rigmoroll of verifcation.

For the 'H&S gawn mad' brigade, I still get plenty of calls from people who have had accidents at work, quite a few due to some kind of negligence. The legislation is not to drive people up the wall, it's so that the poor buggers at the sharp end work-wise who find themselves with (sometimes horrific) injuries can actually get some recompense if the injury is shown to be through no fault of their own.