[Closed] is ESP as car option worth it?

I tested my ABS earlier today. Car pulling out of a side road to my left; stopped, looked *right at me* so I relaxed because I figured he'd seen me, and then he pulled out anyway. Cue five sets of skid marks.

some of the comments on here make for frightening reading. i can definietly recommend a PROPER advanced driving course where this will get explained and demonstrated to all those that think its a bad thing. some of the comments show an unbelievable lack of understanding of what it does and basic understanding of car control/vehicle dynamics. i wouldn'd want to be on the road with some of you!!
Sadly, i will be and thats what ESP is there for, as some have mentioned in 99% of driving, you would never know its there, it is like the safety net, there to catch you when the unforseen happens and the responsible driver has to get out of the way of some inept wanna be F1 driver finding the limits of his/her car.

looked *right at me* so I relaxed because I figured he'd seen me

Every single lesson I had, my instructor kept telling me to assume that "everyone is a moron".

I learned in a city, so there were plenty of opportunities (cyclists, pedestrians and other drivers) in each lesson to put the principle into action.

It's odd, but I actually prefer the 100% morons because they are more predictable (e.g. a private hire taxi WILL pull out in front of you with no warning, and that pedestrian with his hood up in the rain WILL wander across the road you're turning into without looking). It's when I assume that someone is going to act sensibly that I seem to end up on the brakes (your example is a good one Cougar, some making eye contact but still pulling out).

Maybe it's just Glasweigans, but whenever it rains it's like a full moon, everyone starts driving/walking/cycling in a really weird and unpredicable way.

Every single lesson I had, my instructor kept telling me to assume that "everyone is a moron".

I can't argue with that 🙂

A couple of years ago I drove along a country road in winter that I thought had been gritted, but hadn't. I'd noticed the ESP had "grabbed" the car as I came around a shaded bend fairly slowly but put it down to the fact that it was early morning and the gritter had missed a bit. Save number 1.

Shortly afterwards on a straight section the car kept twitching from side to side with the ESP light flashing continuously on an off-camber section. Thinking that it was a fault in the system I tried to slow down but the road was complete sheet ice. The two cars behind me slid off the road. Save number 2.

Would never have another car without it. The system protected me twice in one trip, and that's not even considering the ability to safely perform violent avoidance manoeuvres at the limit of the car's capability.

I always thought in was sensors in the bumpers, otherwise stuff like bottoming out the suspension would set them off?

No, it is deceleration that sets them off, but only very high G forces, like I dunno 15g or something. Far more than you would experience unless you hit something.

I can throw the back end of the midget out on wet roundabouts very easily, doesnt make it out of controll

I would tend to disagree. Next time you are tail sliding, try stopping the car. Not sure it'd be particularly easy. Not being able to stop in an emergency is a fairly fundamental to the issue of control

[i]and that pedestrian with his hood up in the rain WILL wander across the road you're turning into without looking[/i]

The ped does have the right of way when you are turning into a side road so obviously you were prepared to give way anyway, right?! Its just self-preservation (and not knowing the highway code) that means most peds voluntarily give way.

Slightly OT, I'm a bit disturbed that people have commented they have never lost control of a car. I'd be concerned if they said they'd never lost control of their curent car, let alone any car. How do they know where the limits are then? You know, those limits that are easily reached in emergency unforeseeable situations?

What limits, in normal driving the limits you never get near, the limits you can only reach by driving like a *?

So are you advocating drivers drive like ** to find the limits of the car?

Smaller then the Berlingo admittedly, but blimey!

Is there a risk ESP will mean manufacturers might start being a bit more relaxed about how stable their cars are knowing ESP will sort everything out?

Is there a risk ESP will mean manufacturers might start being a bit more relaxed about how stable their cars are knowing ESP will sort everything out?

It works for aircraft designers.

.. and the segway

All these driver aids do one thing and one thing only in my view they allow either bad or inexperienced the ability to drive faster than they really should.

The ped does have the right of way when you are turning into a side road so obviously you were prepared to give way anyway, right?!

Who said anything about a side road?

I tend to give way to anyone who walks in front of the car, regardless of whether it's on a driveway or motorway.

All these driver aids do one thing and one thing only in my view they allow either bad or inexperienced the ability to drive faster than they really should.

How exactly?

All these driver aids do one thing and one thing only in my view they allow either bad or inexperienced the ability to drive faster than they really should.

Although modern safety aids are extremely effective, they still have to obey the laws of physics and if you overcook it too much then it doesn't matter what your ESP does, you are still going to bin it. As others have mentioned above, if you are really trying to push it with ESP on it can actually become dangerous as the car try's to fight you. There is no conspiracy with these things - they are genuinely there to potentially save your life when something unexpected happens during normal driving.

Having driven a Range Rover at a reasonable speed and then throwing round some cones to simulate a car pulling out at the Gaydon test track.

I was amazed at what the ESP can do! 3 tonnes moving that fast shouldn't have been able to manoeuvre like it did. It was very clever how it braked the wheels and balanced the car. Literally defied physics!

So not for driving like a knob but the small chance you driving and a deer, dog, badger, child, car unexpectedly pulls out and is in the road and you have to emergency manoeuvre it makes up for a vast gap in skills you don't normally need.

You may never need it, you may be very glad you had it?

Thinking that it was a fault in the system I tried to slow down but the road was complete sheet ice. The two cars behind me slid off the road. Save number 2.

Yeah.. ESP doesn't [i]always[/i] work....

[img] [/img]

😳

it makes up for a vast gap in skills you don't normally need

It does more that, it does things a driver can't actually do. I would love to see a swerve test (aka moose test) with a pro driver in the same car, with and without ESP.

I would love to see a swerve test (aka moose test) with a pro driver in the same car, with and without ESP.

2mins 50s in

Impressive video.

1) ABS is useless in snow - WRONG
2) Traction control is useless in snow - ALSO WRONG
3) ESP only helps numpties who can't drive - WRONG AGAIN

1) ABS is useless in snow - WRONG

Really in what way? OK its not useless, but certainly stopping distances in snow are quicker if you dont use ABS

Traction control isnt useless in snow, but again you WILL make better forward progress not using it.

As others have mentioned above, if you are really trying to push it with ESP on it can actually become dangerous as the car try's to fight you.

I just cannot understand this. On a public road, in a machine that kills thousands every year, why would you be 'really trying to push it' ?

maybe it's 'cos I have a mate who was a traffic cop for many years and almost daily went to the scene of crashes where people were 'pushing it' and had to mop up the blood and brains from the road.....

I just hope I don't come across these drivers when out on a nice dry country road with my kids in the car 👿

Really in what way? OK its not useless, but certainly stopping distances in snow are quicker if you dont use ABS

Don't agree, and neither does the video as far as I can tell. ABS maximises available traction by feathering to avoid locking up. An advanced driver would do the same thing, so would get the same result. Except he can't do each wheel individually.

I just cannot understand this. On a public road, in a machine that kills thousands every year, why would you be 'really trying to push it' ?

Ok one example - I was in a Merc SL 350 going up a country lane, quite narrow 2nd gear driving quite sensibly. Literally just went over a damp patch on an uneven road surface as I accelerated (not even that hard). Probably in this instance the ESP kicked in before I quite reacted, but I react too buy lifting of and starting to apply opposite lock. The car then did all kinds of weird kangarooing wobbling all over the shop. It was nearly a crash moment. What I should have done is just kept going as I was and nothing would have happened except the dashboard light would have flashed.

MX5's on the whole have quite a low level of grip compared with most modern sports cars (but still fantastic handling) this means in the wet you can quite easily get the car sliding, or all 4 if you use a bit of skill 😈 All at a lot less the 60 mph limit.

mrmo - Member
What limits, in normal driving the limits you never get near, the limits you can only reach by driving like a *?

So are you advocating drivers drive like ** to find the limits of the car?

I've been terrified in cars with people who think like that before.

They think nothing of braking hard on the motorway then immediately performing a fast turn into the overtaking lane while the car is still unsettled, lifting off mid-corner at 50mph in the wet, etc never knowing quite how close they came to completely losing control.

Literally just went over a damp patch on an uneven road surface

Wait a minute - you hit a damp patch and the car required corrective action? Wtf? Something's badly wrong with this picture.

Just doing some googling...

ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and many systems will shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as loose gravel or unpacked snow, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances.

Molgrips - Powerful rwd car 2nd gear greasy road. Very easy to loose the back end. Yes I was using too much right foot for the road condition obviously, but a less powerful fwd car wouldnt have even reacted.

all this thread is doing is re-afirming my belief that there are some c***s on the road who really shouldn't be

all this thread is doing is re-afirming my belief that there are some cs on the road who really shouldn't be

Quite probably. Are those cs the ones who have no idea how a car behaves at the limit of control or when you go passed it, the ones for whom ignorance is bliss?

It's definitely useful. I've got it on two cars but it came as standard. I've experimented with it on and off and it's proven it works. FWIW a Swiss mate of mine tried really hard to unsettle a car with ESP on an icey car park and he was very impressed.

If it was winter you were worried about a full set of winter tyres would probably be more useful. Of course the ESP is always fitted and it works in the wet or indeed the dry if you are pushing hard enough !

In the "old days" ABS was an option, now it's virtually standard. I think ESP will be the same.

FunkyDunc did you watch the video that Tiger6791 posted?
I'd be interested to know what you made of it.

I cant at work 😀

I wouldn't think twice, a definate yes from me.

I am a significantly above average driver in terms of car control and reacting to changes in a vehicle's grip levels, and I still like it being there if I need it. Even if it stops you sliding on some ice or diesel and damaging a wheel, its money in th ebank and piece of mind.

In no way doubting that

I am a significantly above average driver in terms of car control and reacting to changes in a vehicle's grip levels,

I cant at work

Ah okay. It looks like it is from Fifth Gear or some such. Shows Tiff demonstrating ABS, Traction Control and ESP on a Jag on an ice and snow test track. In each case it works better with them on.

Granted the tests could be rigged, he may not be trying properly, or possibly he's just not up to the same standard of driving as some STWers - but it does suggest they are generally all good things for us mortals.

In no way doubting that

I am a significantly above average driver in terms of car control and reacting to changes in a vehicle's grip levels,

, unfortunately most people think that of themselves in a car, meaning that, generally, we are all about average, and as such every and any electronic help we can get will keep us safer

Exactly, its human (or just bloke) nature that we always think we are 20% better than we are. I can only claim to have such talents in car control etc. This is just a crossover form other areas. I cannot (and won't attempt) to claim I am overall and above average driver.

h okay. It looks like it is from Fifth Gear or some such. Shows Tiff demonstrating ABS, Traction Control and ESP on a Jag on an ice and snow test track. In each case it works better with them on.

If formula one could have these things, they would. I personally thknk these systems will revolutionise road safety.

On very soft surfaces, such as loose gravel or unpacked snow, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances.

May. And I am still sceptical. Without ABS, you either lock all four wheels or you don't. I can't imagine when locking all four wheels would help you stop quicker. I think people are convinced that ABS doesn't work on snow because they brake and the car doesn't slow down very much. Well, you're on snow, aren't you? If they had ABS off and braked, and the wheels locked up, they'd see for themselves that there was naff all traction, but without any skidding it doesn't feel like anything is happening.

And it says UNPACKED snow. Pretty unusual situation, to be fair. I don't think I've ever been on a road where at least one car hasn't been on it before me.

The whole ABS/packed snow thing is mainly for places with lots of snow and few cars - e.g. Scandinavia etc.

On loose snow a locked wheel can build up a small "wedge" of snow in front of it that aids deceleration. In those conditions ABS reduces braking.

But in this country, for drivers of all ability up to professionals, these electronic aids help. That's why they are all slowly being mandated.

I personally thknk these systems will revolutionise road safety.

Nah. Risk Compensation will sort that out. Folk will just driver faster.

Early cars were capable of going quite quickly, but generally didn't because there was a high chance you'd die.

Modern cars are incredibly safe by comparison, so people are happier to drive them quickly.

Unfortunately there haven't been similar advances in pedestrians, wildlife, cyclists and other "hazards" that might be found on the road.

Early cars were capable of going quite quickly, but generally didn't because there was a high chance you'd die.

FunkyDunc - Member

all this thread is doing is re-afirming my belief that there are some cs on the road who really shouldn't be

Quite probably. Are those cs the ones who have no idea how a car behaves at the limit of control or when you go passed it, the ones for whom ignorance is bliss?

neither and granted they are both just as dangerous as the ones who think its ok to drive like a c**k on speed, believing they know what they are doing.
take it to a track, learn what car control is, take a course that will demonstrate you know nothing and teach you the error of your ways and then go about your life driving sensibly knowing that you know how to drive and that the systems in the car are there to help should you need them in an emergency and aren't there to stop you crashing.
it defies belief how many people really think they know what a car is doing and is capable of. you NEVER know what is around the next bend, could be a fallen tree, road collapsed, a horse/cyclist/kid, an accident, gravel on the road, mud, ice, road closed etc.
so unless you actually have REAL ESP and genuinely know what is about to happen ahead of schedule instead of a safety feature on your car, slow down and above all else concentrate on what you are doing and think "what if??"

christ i sound old. 🙂

I think the problem is a lot of drivers (Men) think they are better than they are. We all at some point think we are Sterling Moss. I have driven like a complete tit and I can now look back and think I was more lucky than skilled.

I think I had my epiphany once when I was on a track day. I had a TVR took it to tracks and thought I was a racing god. I then got the opportunity to go out with a proper driver. It's a different world there skill levels are awesome, you think you can drive but in reality you can't.

So I now take the ABS / TC and ESP because if I need them I'll need them because I don't have the skill.

Nah. Risk Compensation will sort that out. Folk will just driver faster.

No, cos in order to do that people would have to be thinking about what they were doing. They mostly don't!

Two things everyone likes to think of themselves as above average at - sex and driving.

A criticism of either is never well received 🙂

I wouldn't mind having sex with a few of the bad drivers I see on the school run mind you

Hehe 🙂

I'd add debating and critical thought to that list, for STW at least.

I had a hire car with esp of some sort at HTN - getting out of the snowey carpark was amazing - you could feel it making the most of the grip and I was surprised

No great downside to it as far as I can see.

molgrips - Member

"Nah. Risk Compensation will sort that out. Folk will just driver faster.
"
No, cos in order to do that people would have to be thinking about what they were doing. They mostly don't!

Thats not how it works - risk compensation is not a concious choice by and large

It makes a difference how safe people FEEL, not how safe they actually are, imo.

So if you are in a big cushy car where it feels stable and doens't look like you are going fast, people might faster. Doesn't make any difference how that car actually performs in crash safety or when taking evasive action.

Safety is one of the main arguments people in the US use in favour of big SUVs and trucks, despite them not actually being any safer overall. And in some cases much worse than average.

... but whats good about ESP is that the care feels and handles the same, it only works when you take evasive action. Risk compensation is likely to be low.

I think the risk compensation thing is overstated anyway. How else have the number of people killed dropped from 8000 to 2000 despite millions more cars on the road?

Thought this post was about 15yrs old...never not heard of a new car these days without ESP as standard. I'd get it. Having done various driving courses and seen the benefit on and off, it can save your bacon if it all gets a bit sideways...

it only works when you take evasive action. Risk compensation is likely to be low.

Nope - because people take evasive action and don't lose control or even feel like they might lose control, so they learn they can drive faster. Likewise it compensate for them hitting a wet/icy/diesel patch, so they don't drive with respect for these hazards.

I think the risk compensation thing is overstated anyway. How else have the number of people killed dropped from 8000 to 2000 despite millions more cars on the road?

Safer roads (e.g. crash barriers) and better collision protection (seatbelts, airbags, roll cages, side impact bars, crumple zones, deformable bumpers).

Are you suggesting people drive much better now than they did say 20 years ago?

If I stripped out ALL the safety features in your car and put a big spike on your steering wheel pointing directly at your heart, would you drive the same as you do now?

Nope - because people take evasive action and don't lose control or even feel like they might lose control, so they learn they can drive faster. Likewise it compensate for them hitting a wet/icy/diesel patch, so they don't drive with respect for these hazards.

Yes, but ESP etc are so vastly ahead of human control capabilities in the most part even the higher driving speed is likely to be negated by the additional control. Obviously up to a point.

Personally I quite like a car where I can feel it losing control and play on those boundaries, but in a normal traffic/car situation I like having the aids to give me the best possible chance.

I believe that ESP is a feature on all cars sold in Inverness. Given that no f*cker here ever uses their indicators, Extra-Sensory Perception is the only way I can see of working out which way they are going.

I think you're mixing up traction control with The Batmobile 🙂

Apart from emergency stops on people pulling out in front of me, I have never ever had to correct a skid on the open road. That might make me a good driver.. 🙂