[Closed] is buying a diesel car a wrong choice?

Ton, shame you're not nearer the Zafira Tourer are silly daft cheap new around Corby and Bedford area.

I saw a lovely delivery miles one the other day for £15k.

We're seeing a lot of problems with Insignias and especially the hateful Mokka,

@squirrelking if only there were a few million really big batteries plugged into the grid that could provide that base load.

I dont think ton and his zafira will be bringing Leeds to its knees anytime soon but the cars depreciation will greater than expected as the market for diesels declines over the next five years.

There will be a small shift to petrol but it'll be our neighbours hybrid that we are eyeing enviously.

Loads of ex-Motability cars around, generally pretty low mileage, and often very low mileage; don't get looked after very well

it is a ex motability one I have bought. 63 plate with 12k miles on it.

What happened to the vaaaaan ?

What happened to the vaaaaan ?

she who must be obeyed has lost her licence through epilepsy, and decided she don't want to be driven round in a van.
and you know me Dave......always aim to please........ 😆

@squirrelking if only there were a few million really big batteries plugged into the grid that could provide that base load.

Of course, why didn't I think of that! We'll just simply tell everyone not to drive anywhere every time we have power shortages, I can't see how that couldn't possibly work.

And you clearly don't know how black start works, the power needs to be centralised in order to progressively bring sub-grids back online. It's not as simple as just flicking a switch hence why the station I work in can't just fire on it's 11kV generators and back feed to another station. Also, what powers the grid in order to make the necessary connections? How do you synchronise a million different single phase connections to a common three phase on the grid without having the whole lot fall on arse all over again? This is a more complex problem than you seem to believe, it's not just quality megawatts we're talking here but sustained delivery of those megawatts AND the ability to add more grunt through tap changing as needed.

CountZero - Member 

S'up with the Mokka, then? I see shit-loads of them around.

There [i]are[/i] loads about, I think they are heavily discounted - I've heard they are pushing the Fiesta close for no.1 sales spot in some parts of the country.
I've recovered a few with catastrophic engine failures but mostly it's the usual build quality problems - loose bolts, plastic clips breaking causing wires and pipes to rub through, that sort of thing.

One hyrdro station/nuclear station provides enough juice to provide a start point for getting the grid back up from a blackout Squirrelking and you are well placed to know that.

A million single connections are brought onto a three phase grid every time the sun comes up. I've stood in the control rooms of the major Welsh hydro stations as they've been spun up and brought on line. Absolutely no problem suddenly dumping enough power for most of Wales into the grid or switching it off; the frequency and voltage went/down up a bit and that was it.

It's a manageable problem. And GB is a part of the European grid, even if the whole UK goes down it's highly unlikely to take Europe with it given the limited number of connection point and maximum possible drain (and the fact there a plans and systems to prevent a total continental failure). The cable from France would therefor be another start point in the event of a total UK blackout.

Spain does very nicely with a very high proportion of intermittent renewable energy sources. they briefly got close to 100% on a very windy and sunny day and their objective is 100% by 2020. It all works just fine. One of the nice things about having so many small sources of energy is that changes take place slowly. The wind doesn't suddenly stop, the sun sets predictably at the end of the day, ther's pleny of warning that the frequency and voltage are dropping and it's time to start the hydro or even gas if you are desperate.

On your first point, no it doesnt and yes I am. Nuclear stations cannot operate as "islands" as they lack sufficient control to keep reactors operating at the low loads found on startup, once you lose grid power it's game over. As for hyrdro, in theory, yes, but you only have one shot at it and in that shot you need to power up all the sub grids between you and the nearest power station, get it on line and thenhave enough reserve to tackle unforseen problems. I'm not confident we have that capability and neither are National Grid.

As for synching all those sources, You were watching one source synch to a master source (the grid). In effect thats one sngle synchronisation with one standard. What happens when you have several discreet sources all trying to connect at once to restart after a blackout? Easy, they won't as they would need to be individually managed from a single point (as opposed to automatically synching with what they see) which would require a collosal amount of control to get right.

And yes, we are part of the European grid, thats how we (Scotland) are pretty much expecting to restart and why the delay is now days as opposed to hours. I'm not knocking renewables at all, I'm actually quite in favour of them but I also understand the underlying technical problems faced by our infrastructure and that we NEED baseload sources that can be reliably started and sustained come rain or shine. Until we have a better solution that falls on fossil fuels. Believe me, I'd rather have a hydrogen powered turbine on quick spinup duty but the infrastructure does not exist and nor shall it for the forseeable future.

And yes, all those diverse sources are nice, but I'm talking about a complete catastrophic grid collapse, not a cloud passing over the Benidorm solar farm.

You better drop a note to all those people working on and investing in what you know won't work.

No-one's investing in solar base capacity are they. Did you really understand what he said?

You better drop a note to all those people working on and investing in what you know won't work.

What? A black start system based on car batteries all being in the right place, at the right time and in the same charge state? Send me a link please, I'd be happy to peruse the literature that backs such a concept up.

No-one's investing in solar base capacity are they. Did you really understand what he said?

Clearly not. Of course I know nothing, I only work in the power generation industry and have only studied renewables as part of my degree. I'm not a teacher who once visited a dam and watched something I had a vague understanding of and then connected that with something completely different.

Did Scotland ever have a black start ability? Does the UK? Or does everyone just assume that the entire grid isn't going to fall over at once?

Exploring Inverkip power station, I once found the massive diesel startup generators - my understanding was that they would fire up from cold, then one smaller boiler would fire up, then finally the main boilers would fire up in sequence. Would a power station like that have the ability to restart the whole grid?

This is your industry apparently I shouldnt have to provide the wiki links. You dived in with this 'blackstart' we're all doomed guff btw the original discusion was nothing to do witht that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

@molgrips I dont know wtf you are on about.

Yes, our black start was Longannet.

Yes it does, there are a number of nominated/contracted strategic sites that are the first to start in such a scenario.

No, that's the whole point in having a black start provision.

And yes, that's exactly how it would work.

Basically the boilers can be fired such that they are connected at very low loads (too low for nuclear as explained). Each local sub-grid is then powered up until a super grid connection can be made. At this point I assume there will be a pecking order and each grid synchronises in turn until all grids are powered up and a common level of synchronicity has been reached. Other power stations will then be fed for start-up and then synchronised in turn until the whole system is back up on its feet.

That's the basic version, the long version is more complicated (and beyond my pay grade) but suffice to say it's not as simple as just flinging some water out Cruachan and hoping for the best.

This is your industry apparently I shouldnt have to provide the wiki links.

No it's not, I'm in generation not transportation.

And well done, you have absolutely proven Molgrips right. That entire article is concerned with load balancing which is completely different from black start capability. You don't know what you're talking about.

And the black start question is absolutely relevant - we don't have enough generation capacity as it is and it's not going to get any better any time soon (in fact it's going to get worse hence the black start question). So all these electric vehicles you propose are a waste of time if they can't get charged! If they ran on hot air on the other hand...

Longannet was a 2400 mega watt station.

Dinorwic is 1700 mega watt. Plenty of smaller ones to chose from in Wales and Scotland. The grid just needs organising so it can be connected progressively. I assume that's the case in France because they seem quite good a shutting bits down as and when necessary.

Starting from hydro is clearly possible with or without a nearby nuclear station.

I might have been a teacher but ain't thick and have had a number of lives

Back in the day I was one of those irritating environmental bods who led Welsh Water's acid waters project - I set up and ran the rainfall and surface water monitoring and my name was first on the first paper produced. I then moved on to other things.

I was sometimes closer to the power industry than you perhaps realise, I appeared in a TV programme with a bod from the CEGB who claimed that power stations had nothing to do with acid rain, so I'm quite familiar with power generators who talk rubbish. Anyhow, we won and they ended up fitting scrubbers. The power station visits were part of a programme monitoring the effects of dumping acid upland water into neutral lowland rivers.

Complicated and beyond your pay-grade perhaps, impossible not.

Hybrids. That IMO is what we are ready for.

My mate who bought a Tesla was telling about the fast vs slow charge stations, yes there may be a charging station but its not a lot of use if it takes hours and hours. He has a fast charge in his garage (paid for via a subsidy/grant I think) and a trickle charge at a second home where he can wait all night). Seems limiting to me and a lot of £££ for the privilige

Wow, that's an absolute wealth of industrial experience with grid operations. If only I had appeared in a TV programme then I could make up utter nonsense and present it as fact. 😆

You know bugger all and frankly you're embarrassing yourself. You make the assumption that capacity is the driving factor - it's not. We have Peterhead (everything else is shut) and it doesn't have sufficient grunt (on site) to start itself up. Hydro is not possible for the reasons I already explained plus it's reliant on there being enough capacity behind the dam in the beginning! The grid is already arranged in such a way that you describe however you need something reliable to actually drive it in the first place. I don't know how France runs their grid, only that ours is presumably arranged differently and you can't just change things overnight (back to the medium term thing I pointed out again).

you know when you wish you had not opened your mouth........yeah that. 😆

OK Squirrelking I've been indulgent, here are some example of your genius.

Note that I'm being very careful to distinguish between the NOx generated and those emitted. The generated NOx are dealt with in the EGR system (which then has a knock on effect of increased particulates so DPF is fitted) and so can be mitigated against.

Wrong; the EGR recycles exhaust gases which contaminate the charge and lower the combustion temperature which reduces the quantity of NOX. The system fails dismally to meet even E5 NOX levels. THe generated NOX is exactly what is emitted - the EGR does nothing to eliminate NOX it simply means less is generated (but still too much) Only aan injected additive can reduce NOX.

diesels still emit half as much permissible CO2 as petrols

This was so clearly rubbish you later retracted it.

All the renewables in the country are useless at restarting a grid

You later admit it's possible with hydro but might require someone further up the ladder to work out how to do it. The you change your mind again

Hydro is not possible for the reasons I already explained plus it's reliant on there being enough capacity behind the dam in the beginning!

There lots of hydro schemes and always reserve capacity. They have never all been empty and some are also used for water supply so the water industry sets draw-down levels.

I take it everyone in Paris drives a new car then?

Needs no comment other than to point out you're not very sensible on here sometimes

I'm also an ex-proof reader and used to be one of the people asked to read papers for peer review so I'm quite good at spotting fatal flaws in posts.

Right I'm done with this cock waving contest. Think what you like, it makes no odds to me but I'm happy you're talking shite.

And FWIW, you're also being a pedant in order to try and redeem yourself. Try countering with some actually citeable facts, at least Wilburt tried.

Redeem myself from what?

You launch into a car thread with a pro-diesel anti-electric agenda ("cos they'll bring the grid down") and then get upset when people point out that diesels really do pollute more than petrol in terms of public health and there's capacity to charge electric cars with intelligent metering and more renewables.

Anyhow, anyone can read back and make up their own minds about the relative merits of our contributions.

Hybrids. That IMO is what we are ready for.

Plugin hybrids or electric cars with the range extender. The Passat GTE for example - 30 miles electric range which is fine for most purposes, but it's a normal 2 litre hybrid when it needs to be. Alternatively the BMW i3 has more electric range but the range extender is just that - not a large quick family saloon type experience like the Passat.

Right I'm done with this cock waving contest. Think what you like, it makes no odds to me but I'm happy you're talking shite.

And FWIW, you're also being a pedant in order to try and redeem yourself. Try countering with some actually citeable facts, at least Wilburt tried.

You seem to be upset when people are talking about your area of expertise. Well, that's exactly how I felt when you were talking complete shite about Euro standards.

I might have been a teacher but ain't thick

You are in some ways. You're a nice bloke and an asset to the forum when you're not trying to defend your pride! Just let it go, shrug, thank him for his contributions and let's move on in what would be an interesting thread 🙂

You are in some ways.

Molgrips, you've been around here long enough to know that when anyone attacks the teaching profession I put on my Edukator hat. It's not so much pride as living up to the Internet persona.

Edit: it's really about playing the ball not the man, there was no need to make a personal attack here. I was was quite prepared for a link duel but instead an attempt was made to attack me rather than my contributions. "You know nothing" doesn't wash, if I knew nothing I wouldn't post. Remember i-Dave? He spent his time rubbishing other people's credentials if they disagreed with him - he couldn't even control his own weight yet claimed to have the absolute truth in all things diet.

Okay, I wasn't going to post any more but I feel this warrants a response:

it's really about playing the ball not the man, there was no need to make a personal attack here. I was was quite prepared for a link duel but instead an attempt was made to attack me rather than my contributions. "You know nothing" doesn't wash, if I knew nothing I wouldn't post.

I firstly apologise if I came across as attacking you. That not withstanding you were talking nonsense about something you clearly don't fully understand. You were comparing apples with oranges and I was trying to correct you. I repeatedly explained the rationale behind my opinions and instead of reading with an open mind you chose to entrench yourself in your own views to the point you are now claiming I'm "pro-diesel anti-electric" which couldn't be further from the truth. I was calling you out after I gave you the chance to engage rather than cock waving.

As I said, I'm absolutely pro-renewables however they are NOT the quick fix that so many people seem to think they are. They have to work and they have to be sustainable which a single source is not. Our infrastructure has to adapt and this will, unfortunately, take some time to do so. So saying things like every car should be electric in the next ten years is all well and good but nothing but a nice idea that practically isn't going to happen without considerable cost and upheaval.

Now if you want to have a sensible discussion I'm all for it, I don't claim to be a font of all knowledge but I do take umbrage when my professional and academic knowledge is called into question by people who's own subject matter knowledge claims are tenuous at best.

As Molgrips says you're a generally nice guy and usually have something interesting to say.

Ransos - as I said the CO2/CO thing was a typo, let it go.

Ransos - as I said the CO2/CO thing was a typo, let it go.

Do give over. You were quoting Euro standards in defence of your viewpoint, despite it being widely known that the test cycle is junk. You haven't the humility to acknowledge this, then have the gall to state the following:

"I don't claim to be a font of all knowledge but I do take umbrage when my professional and academic knowledge is called into question by people who's own subject matter knowledge claims are tenuous at best."

Sauce for the goose.

So saying things like every car should be electric in the next ten years is all well and good

Nobody has said that. It's a transition. During that transition all the implications will be considered and strategies developed to make sure that demand doesn't exceed supply and if ever the grid does go down it can be restarted. Just because the current system wouldn't cope with everyone plugging in an electric car tomorrow doesn't mean we shouldn't plan for everyone plugging in an electric car in the future and develop the renewable generating capacity, the technology to make best use of that technology and make sure that the system can be started again in the unlikely event that mismanagement leads to failure.

Here in France we were warned at the start of a recent cold snap that unless we all played the game and reduced our demand at peak then some of us would be cut off to prevent the grid going down (four nuclear stations are/were off-line apparently). There were public service announcements on all the main news channels and it worked. Demand remained with in supply limits and no-one was cut off.

The electricity supply industry will evolve. If the government implements energy saving measures at the same time existing production may be enough. We consume 1700kWh a year (we're not on gas), and produce 3400kWh. If everyone cuts their energy consumption by the amount we have there will be an energy surplus even if everyone has also bought an electric car.

The next time you meet one of your water industry colleagues grill them about out how dependent their supply network is on electricity, what proportion of UK energy is used to pump water around, how long water supply can be maintained without mains electricity before water is cut off and strategic stand pipes fitted, how many pumping stations and water works have generators, and how long the generating industry reckons it takes to get the grid back up even in a worst case. Your bosses are a lot more optimistic than you, Squirrelking. Every industry has contingency plans and some of them are common.

And by the same standards you were still somehow claiming petrol models are better

Because they are. There's a simple reason diesels struggle with the Californian standards, it's because whatever technology you add they are more polluting in terms of NOX and soot than a petrol engine using equivalent technology.

Nobody has said that. It's a transition.

Hmm, I was originally answering this post:

short answer is there's already enough capacity

and somewhere in between I seem to have got that in my head. So yeah, fair point.

Everyone having electric isn't the answer either, at least not similar types. There simply aren't enough resources to dedicate to one single answer so we need a diverse mix, hence my hydrogen turbine comments (not in cars but fuel cells are easy). Any solution needs to be sustainable.

As I said, it's not the water supply that's the issue it's the electricity on the present system we have. And my bosses are very much not in the optimistic camp, this is a very real issue and not one that seems to be getting sorted any time soon. It's not in our interest to stir this pot, we couldn't supply a solution even if we wanted to. Our contingency (Scotland), at the moment, seems to be the Norway sub-sea link which in terms of security of supply is a terrible plan.

Everyone having electric isn't the answer either, at least not similar types. There simply aren't enough resources to dedicate to one single answer so we need a diverse mix, hence my hydrogen turbine comments (not in cars but fuel cells are easy). Any solution needs to be sustainable.

Yup.

<mod>
This all seems to have gone to custard and I'm not going to pick the bones out of a five page squabble at ten past midnight, I'm going to bed.

I'm closing this thread for now to prevent further unpleasantness until a) someone else from the team cares to deal with it tonight or b) it can be reviewed tomorrow and hopefully reopened.
</mod>

<mod>

Right.

Now that I'm awake I've removed a couple of posts and slapped a couple of wrists, so am reopening this.

I'll remind all posters that they're expected to discuss subjects in a civil manner. If any of us have to revisit this it'll be with hammers.

</mod>

you know when you wish you had not opened your mouth........yeah that.

So, a Zafira then? Should be just the job for what you're after.

I'd forgotten this was about whether or not to buy a diesel car......
Buy what you think is best for you.

WTF has most of this page got to do with Ton buying a new car?

Only on STW could a car buying thread drift to such an extent that they end up arguing about the national grid FFS.

How about a thread on planting trees in Scotland 😉 ?

in readiness for picking my car up tomorrow, I have cycle commuted 120 miles this week............ it is all give and take after all.

I was going to suggest a Dacia Duster diesel, very happy with mine not too expensive. However given what happened ^.........

So - @ghostlymachine - how 'clean' can we expect diesel to be in the near future?

in readiness for picking my car up tomorrow, I have cycle commuted 120 miles this week............ it is all give and take after all.

I'm making my contribution by keeping a diesel out of the hands of someone who'd do a really high mileage in it...

He got a zafira then? I've read unconfirmed reports he has??

[quote="Molgrips"]So - @ghostlymachine - how 'clean' can we expect diesel to be in the near future?Not sure, but it's not far off before we are expecting the emissions targets for petrol and diesel to be pretty much identical, and really hard to reach. So we'll probably be seeing a wholesale move to electric/PHEV/range extender vehicles in the next few years, from everybody, which is somewhat worrying.
And the Real Driving Emissions thing will make it all but impossible to play the tests, as there won't really be a test!

We're going to see petrols getting a lot cleaner too as they start introducing diesel type emissions tech where they can. Only issue is the rate electric systems are getting cheaper is that it might be cheaper and less risky to go hybrid/range extender than to double the cost of the engine with emissions stuff. And you can play with all sorts of stuff when you decouple the engine from the wheels.

All sorts of other issues around electric though, not least of which is the amount of cash needed to bring some countries up to any sort of position where proper plug in/DC/quick charging will be possible. I know huge areas of rural and semi-rural europe and most of the US it's going to cost a fortune to do the upgrading. Unless you don't mind really, really long charge times........ They were talking about something like 25% of Europe and 40% something in the US, something to do with the difference in distribution network structure.

And from what i could see, most of the areas where decent charging is possible it's mostly people who could walk/cycle/bus/train to work anyway. Quite lucky where i am, they upgraded everything about 5 years ago after some issues at the local distribution box thing, so i can get a proper charger in the garage. Next village over they'll pretty much be charging on domestic sockets.