[Closed] Intruder killed.

But why is it the first thing the police do with this sort of thing, is arrest the home owner on suspicion of murder ?

Well it doesn't sound like the guy died from a stroke.

Someone died. The facts need to be established.

Does someone have to be arrested to be questioned about an incident ?

I think when someone dies, it's probably quite a good idea to ask around to find out what's happened. "Arrested" doesn't mean, tried and convicted...despite what the Mail would have us think.

Would you prefer he was released for a few days until the facts were established....

Think about that for a moment.

Would you prefer he was released for a few days until the facts were established....Think about that for a moment.

Why not, If he was cooperating and prepared to answer questions. Right or wrong being arrested does have a stigma attached to it.

So you would rather he was questioned but not under arrest? Should this questioning be under caution?

i think killing someone may have a stigma as well. Being cleared by a police investigation may actually reduce that IMHO.

This is no good...so far it's just hand-wringers versus the OP. Where are all the "he deserved it" brigade? 😐

EDIT: JY hadn't even turned up when I typed that. We're at maximum wringiness 🙂

What about the recovery of forensic evidence from the [s]suspect[/s] innocent person? Should we expect our cooperative friend to partake in this voluntarily too?

went in his property innit * * * deserved everything he got * hand-wringing liberal ****

So you would rather he was questioned but not under arrest ?

steady there DD i am a bleeding heart lefty PC liberal do gooder, naturally i forgive your error and blame thatcher

So you would rather he was questioned but not under arrest ?
Yup that sounds about right to me. Imagine you've just faught for you life with an indtruder in your home. First thing the police do is arrest you on suspicion of murder. Surely at least initialy the facts can be established without arresting the homeowner.

You failed to answer the second question. Would you expect the interview to take place under caution?

* * make us feel like we're not even safe in our own * homes anymore.

*

Imagine you've just faught for you life with an indtruder in your home.

You failed to answer the second question. Would you expect the interview to take place under caution?

OP. What if, a few hours into the interview, the occupier says, I've had enough of this. He hasn't been arrested and the interview has taken place at his home or some place other than a Police Station. Should the Police say, that's fine sir, sorry to have kept you. Allow me to show you out?

Or - having not yet got answers to the many questions they have, would you then expect them to arrest the man as he is no longer cooperating? What are their grounds at this point?

If they felt that they did not have sufficient grounds to arrest initially but now that the occupier wants to leave they feel he should now be arrested, based on no new evidence at that point?

Sorry if I sou d facetious but there are many aspects to a murder investigation. The cause of death will not be established for many hours, perhaps many days. It is vital that forensic evidence is recovered at an early stage and to a certain extent a "suspect" is afforded a certain amount of protection throughout the interview process that other people interviewed in the course of an investigation are perhaps not.

Was the dead person an intruder,a burglar, or known to the home owner, or even a delivery person.

He died, so the police have to investigate the cause and method of his death, to do this they have to take the other person into custody to interview him or otherwise he would just walk off, saying something like i didnt see him, as motorists do when they kill someone.

Let us see what actually happened before we jumop to conclusions.

is an individual provided with a solocitor if only under caution? just asking as I don't know...

Obviously the full details aren't known.

Exactly!

But why is it the first thing the police do with this sort of thing, is arrest the home owner on suspicion of murder ?

Maybe because they suspect there has been a murder??? Imagine, you're PC Plod, you turn up at a house following a 999 call to find a blood soaked corpse on the hall rug, and a man over the body with a big knife. What do you do? Act quick, get the apparent offender in cuffs and administer 1st aid, whilst wishing you'd took the night off. Or,do you try to work out what to do during an informal conversation with said knife wielding bloke - all of which will be inadmissable at court if it turns out he did it in circumstances unforseen at this time?

'Somebody' has died, and whether you like it or not that 'somebody' will be someone's son, father, husband, partner, whatever; this means that a full investigation, within the framework of the law, with particular regard to the Police And Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) will take place.

When you're arrested and took to the custody suite you also get certain rights that you don't get at home. Free and independant legal advice for instance. Also, as mentioned above, arrested under suspicion is not a charge or conviction, its just a way of securing evidence in a prompt manner.

OP. What if, a few hours into the interview, the occupier says, I've had enough of this. He hasn't been arrested and the interview has taken place at his home or some place other than a Police Station. Should the Police say, that's fine sir, sorry to have kept you. Allow me to show you out?
Or - having not yet got answers to the many questions they have, would you then expect them to arrest the man as he is no longer cooperating? What are their grounds at this point?
They felt that they did not have sufficient grounds to arrest initially but now that the occupier wants to leave he should be arrested, based on no new evidence at that point. Any solicitor would have any subsequent interview kicked out at court the arrest would be unlawful.

If it turns out the dead chap was in the house for nefarious purposes then he got everything he deserves....ah, that feels better.

An Englishman's home is his castle and all that....Land of Hope and glory, God Save the Queen etc etc....

* Just to add, this story has since been updated as more facts have emerged.
The police now say there were two burglars that forced their way into the house and that the homeowner's wife and child returned home while the altercation was occurring but were able to escape unhurt....the police also believe that the two intruders had threatened the man who has been arrested. *

If this turns out to be true then the bloke has huge balls and i applaud his actions in protecting his home and family....

....find it quite amusing that two burglars thought they'd try hard man tactics on a bloke home alone and one of them ended up dead!

They have to arrest the person so they can interview under caution and can force his presence and cooperation.

this is only right and proper given that someone has died in unknown circumstances.

I don't do internet arguments Bregante, I possed the question in my op, hoping someone with knowledge about police procedurs could tell me why the arrest is necessary. Maybe your scenarios do that, if their based on actual knowledge.

Fairly certain that Bregante is a cop, so if probably up to date on the right way to go about investigating a (potential) murder...

[i]Yup that sounds about right to me. Imagine you've just faught for you life with an indtruder in your home. First thing the police do is arrest you on suspicion of murder. Surely at least initialy the facts can be established without arresting the homeowner.[/i]

Why? You're using your imagination of what may have happened to to make assumptions.
Let's say (purely hypothetically) that the homeowner is known to run a drug den from his home, and the deceased is also a local drug dealer. Would you then just have a policy of asking what happened, accepting the answer on face value, and letting the person go, or arrest them as it looks a bit suspicious?
If you do the latter, then what guidelines do you use for suspicion?
Criminal History? Suspected Criminal?, Black?, Pikey?, looked a bit iffy? It would be an utter nightmare of complaints and litigation.
It's far more Just simply to say that if someone has killed someone, you arrest them for murder and establish the facts afterwards.

Just to add to Ian's and Mildreds excellent summaries above. I would imagine that it gave the arresting officer no pleasure at all to arrest the householder, if the facts are as being currently reported.

....find it quite amusing that two burglars thought they'd try hard man tactics on a bloke home alone and one of them ended up dead!

Hilariarse.

Yup I agree Bregante, it must be a grim job to do when justice and compassion aren't following the same path.

Lifer....exactly, laugh with me wont you?!

I'm raising a beer to this hero as i type, scum that go 'two on one' in somebody else's home are low....not as low as sex offenders but pretty low nonetheless and deserve no place in society.

I'll laugh even harder if it turns out he turned the intruder's own knife on them....poetic justice.

Dam burglars!

This is 2 streets away from me. Bit scary either way wherever you are, but more so so close to home!

I used to live off Grange road, so know this house well.
It's a desirable area with plenty of money around.

It is the third one of these in only a few months in the Greater Manchester area, is violent breaking and entering on the increase in the area, something the media have latched on to or something else?

There was a recent case where a home owner had killed an intruder. Huge fuss was made about this, until it turns out they he and his mate had chased the intruder away and killed him down the road.

Let the Police do their job, gather the evidence of what actually happened.

[i]I used to live off Grange road, so know this house well.
It's a desirable area with plenty of money around. [/i]

Ooh, hark at her!

Yet another fallen solder and promising footballer.

When the riots were kicking off the cops came to my shop with a rules of engagement leaflet.
We didn't have to be attacked to defend our shop only needed to feel threatened. Also in the heat of the moment we didn't need to worry about what was reasonable force.
I took this to mean we could do whatever we liked .I can't see it can be that different for someone to protect their home.

I want to know what Hora doing some bodged home electronics has got to do with it tho?

the police have to ask questions like it has been said on here to actually establish what has happened. for all they know the person that did the stabbing could of dragged some baghead of the street in to his home & stabbed him. i think now they also offer support to the person. people seem to forget the fact that not everybody could stab someone. i couldnt but if scared in my own home & my family were at risk then yes i guess you would as your scared shitless. so you have to live with the fact that 1 you stabbed someone & secondly you killed someone. its not something i guess is easy to put to the back of your mind.

santacruzsi - Member
This is 2 streets away from me. Bit scary either way wherever you are, but more so so close to home!

Don't worry, there's only one of them now....

Further to the above answers from people who have a brain. Regardless of the necessity of obtaining a taped interview under PACE there are a number of forensic samples that would have to be taken. For example clothing for blood pattern analysis, hand swabs, nail clippings, DNA sample, fingerprints and body mapping of any defensive injuries to the homeowner. The only way to do this is to arrest the individual. In the circumstances there is no way of knowing what happened and being able to gather evidence lawfully and efficiently. So there was no other option open to the investigating officers. If it turns out that he was using reasonable force to defend himself and his property then he will not face any charges. Amazes me that so many laypeople think they know exactly how the police work because they watched an episode of the Bill once in 1998.

Yup that sounds about right to me. Imagine you've just faught for you life with an indtruder in your home. First thing the police do is arrest you on suspicion of murder. Surely at least initialy the facts can be established without arresting the homeowner.

When the riots were kicking off the cops came to my shop with a rules of engagement leaflet.
We didn't have to be attacked to defend our shop only needed to feel threatened. Also in the heat of the moment we didn't need to worry about what was reasonable force.
I took this to mean we could do whatever we liked .

Think I pass the wife most mornings, there can't be many champagne gold maserati 3200gt's in the local area (looks awful!)

Sounds like a good outcome, good riddance

of course they had to arrest the murderer - how the hell do people expect the police to be able to beat a confession out of someone unless they're in custody.

It is the third one of these in only a few months in the Greater Manchester area, is violent breaking and entering on the increase in the area?

It'll start reducing again with a few more of these killings 🙂

Konabunny....there is provision in law for a pre-emptive strike if you genuinely believe your safety or life is in danger.

To have a situation whereby somebody has to harm you first is ludicrous....if you are threatened by somebody you are legally entitled to fight your way out of that situation before any harm comes to you....this is something the police taught me in fend-off training years ago when i started with the ambulance service.

Of course you are still bound by the definition of 'reasonable force'....but as the police release more information on this case it would appear the man was outnumbered and at some point his wife and child were involved in the situation, i think most people would fight tooth and nail to protect their family....i hope common sense prevails and he walks free with no charges.

Amazes me that so many laypeople think they know exactly how the police work because they watched an episode of the Bill once in 1998.

Much like they know how finance works because they have an overdraft 😉

* * * *

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is that the blank confession form ?

I'm incensed!! Outrageous it is.

How's work going tm? 😛

not good dd, still not been paid for aug - shysters 😥

not going in until they pay me and have an interview this afternoon for another job.

not good dd, still not been paid for aug - shysters

not going in until they pay me and have an interview this afternoon for another job.

B'stards! Time to take the law into your own hands I think. Riot!

i considered rioting but i think i'll just stay in and revise for my ou exam instead.

So where's taxi25's post saying - "Ah, that's fully and comprehensively answered my question. Thanks guys!" ??

I can see what happened. Two males going round trying doors (due to time of day I imagine not many would lock their doors) then using the idea of two men in your house/the surprise and probably carrying screwdrivers etc you'd probably **** yourself and let them take something if you confronted them.

After all- better to let them get away with a TV than face something violent?

If they are lucky, more than likely the home owner would be a female or male etc in their 50's or 60's or one male on his own.

Occasionally though they'd enter the home of someone who (probably didnt even know he had it in him himself) just reacted very very strongly back.

I've got absolutely no sympathy for the intruder.

However if I had killed a violent home invader, I would expect that the police would be taking me in for investigation, which means arrest. Hopefully I would be savvy enough under the stress to insist on the presence of a lawyer before saying anything.

Normal police procedures I am afraid but I guess the best thing to do is not to enter another's house without invitation. Nahhh ... I say cull the population ...

I can see what happened.

Have you offered yourself to either the prosecution or defence teams as an expert witness hora? There aren't enough of your types around.

I foresee a tv series spin-off following your work.

So what else happened? A two man team were delivering extra large pizzas and one is always alittle inpatient and knocked and entered the wrong house?

hora - you've got a remarkably active imagination! What did they have for breakfast that morning?

Konabunny....there is provision in law for a pre-emptive strike if you genuinely believe your safety or life is in danger

If anyone entered my house they'd join the charity door knockers and gas salesmen in my purpose-made sex swings in the cellar 8)

hora - Member

So what else happened? A two man team were delivering extra large pizzas and one is always alittle inpatient and knocked and entered the wrong house?

No excuse there ... cull and blame it on bad pizzas experience and people who cannot find the right address. 😆

Anyway

The most amazing aspect has to be the intruder's shameless family turning up at the scene and laying flowers!

The most amazing aspect has to be the intruder's shameless family turning up at the scene and laying flowers!

Dobbo- those flowers have now been removed ( I suspect by neighbours).

Samuri

Ooh, hark at her!

taxi25 - Member
I don't do internet arguments

Its the procedure to follow. You are faced with a situation where one person has killed another ... with, by the sounds of it, a level of pre-meditation ( i.e. he's picked up a knife from somewhere and used it ). He has to be arrested/detained for further enquiry.

And let the enquiry / court decide.

Poor ****er. Minding his own business and now hes got a lifetime of bad memories and hassle from something that wasn't his choice in his own home.

Plus what the **** was a 37yr old doing carrying out an aggravated burglary? Shouldn't he have retired or grown out of that phase?!

Better bad memories than a dead child Hora.

Stretford a couple of years back after a minor road/traffic incident a family was followed back to their home and the two guys forced their way into the home and put the father in a coma/in hospital. It was about 'respect' apparently.

What is wrong with people?

He's been released on bail now

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14968236

If it was a serious charge, they'd not release him, yes?

hora - Member
What is wrong with people?

So you make a deliberately provocative posting on an internet forum with anti police undertones and expect full and complete agreement with you? Perhaps they should just invite him down to the police station for an informal chat over tea and scones, if they fancy it?

I have to agree my sympathies tend to lie with the homeowner in this sort of instance. I was just thinking how I might feel being arrested in the same circumstances. Asking a question is being " deliberatly provocative " ?????? Maybe it is to some people, or is anything posted on here just an excuse for an argument or ridicule. 🙁
Oh yes some of the more considered replies have shown to me that arresting the home owner probably is the best way to deal with the matter, for everyone.

Maserati and a Range Rover? Self-employed Manchester businessman? Hmmm...

If it was a serious charge, they'd not release him, yes?

you can eneter someones home by accident .. i've done it. got called to fix a boiler went to house at about 7pm gave it may best debt collectors knock.. no reply could see family watching telly in kitchen.. knocked like the world would end.. no one blinked in house rang doorbell etc etc opened door ajay shouting hello its the plumber no one blinks walks in shouting hi its the plumber no one blinks.. bloke jumps up shouting wtf etc etc .. i was in 33a not 33.. so it aint all cut and dry

yeh love the range rover maserati and the courier van outside must pay well van driving..

Here's the case that it reminded me of: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-10808704 Bearing in mind that very few facts have been established and disclosed, the only difference between the cases so far (in the absence of factual differences) is how sympathetic the reporting has been. Of course, it'll all shake out in the investigation (and subsequent prosecution, if there is one) because that's why you have them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8776004/Man-charged-over-raid-which-saw-burglar-stabbed.html

Seems like the poor chap who got stabbed was an upstanding member of society. Oh wait.