Another thing to consider is transport. Eating beasts are transported to centralised warehouses under horrible conditions and slaughtered on a massive scale.
The transport is required because of factory farming, which is due to quantity of production/customer expectations of price.
Locally raised/slaughtered animals have far less trauma - but because we all eat so [b]much[/b] meat that isn't economically viable in the majority.
Then there's the issue of the killing.
Local slaughterman - individually killed animals, probably time to use the correct restraint and aim the bolt gun right.
Factory slaugherhouse - horrible crowding, terrified animals all held together [probably shitting on each other] and a lower rate of correct stunning/restraint.
Another issue - feeding/hormones/milk for fast growing meat.
Have you [i]seen[/i] a fasttracked chicken? The ones used in KFC or supermarket "value" meat? They're deformed, and in pain from it. They've been bred to grow so fat and so fast.
Now. Please excuse the quantity of typing; I'm really not having a go.
Do as you please.
I suggest you eat less meat. Perhaps none.
That's all.
Why is it that veggies need to bang on about not eating meat.
As always with these threads the ratio of defensive meat-eaters to veggies is about 10:1.
Here's an idea, what other people eat is not that big of a deal.
If you drink milk, you should also eat British rose veal. Not least because it's yummy!
Indeed it is.
Most male dairy calves are slaughtered at birth. Very few are required to be grown on to produce diary bulls. Genetics mean it is now getting straightforward to produce only female calves, which I think is cheating and I like a bit of veal now and then.
There are breeds which will produce beef and milk but not on the industrial scale required today. Cattle are bred for either beef or milk.
I'm not sure why some people are happy to have veg, fruit, cereals, meat farmed but not fish. Or think that farmed = unsustainable. You might be surprised how little fishmeal / oil goes into some farmed fish and just like any other foodstuff production standards and food quality vary.The reason I east some fish (sustainable fish, as advised by msc/fishonline) is because they're not farmed.
I don't think farmed is unsustainable.
I think many fish farms are cruelly overstocked and fish are not healthy.
What I was trying to get across above is that it's the farming I really don't like.
It would be interesting to know where you get your information from gofasterstripes. This is no longer the 1980s.
I feel hungry for chicken after reading this thread.
It would be interesting to know where you get your information from gofasterstripes. This is no longer the 1980s.
Which bit?
where the use of growth hormones is rife (banned in the EU)
Well it is until TTIP comes in, then we'll end up with the same sort of rubbish going on.
The transport is required because of factory farming
Partially correct, it's more factory slaughter dictated by Tesco, JS et al. All the meat for one of the chains goes to one or two slaughter houses miles from the catchment area the animals were raised in. Good stock farmers would prefer to locally slaughter but the big chains and UK implementation of hygiene rules for slaughterhouses means most of these were shut in the 90's. It's all a race to the bottom so that people can eat value mince 3 or 4 times a week.
FWIW I'm with the eat less but of better quality camp when it comes to meat.
You mentioned overstocking and lack of health. With things like the RSPCA saying 70% of UK salmon farming complies with their Freedom Food standard your suggestions seem a little out of date.Which bit?
Thanks for the heads-up.
70% is not 100%, and that's UK and Salmon specifically.
But I will have a look again.
I have been meaning to write an article on eating meat for the website MissStripes made, so I need to be up-to-date with my sources.
Also, I must be wrong about something 🙂 No one can be right all the time and I just wrote lots of IMHO stuff above and didn't bother to cite, so I must have made a mistake or two somewhere!
Cheers.
You could look at this line of thought and see where it takes you: unhealthy or overstocked fish do not grow and small or unhealthy fish do not get good prices. Good welfare makes good economics.
I see where you're coming from but I also see: fishcakes and crab sticks; not to mention other animals which are overstocked and yet grow huge [chickens] and then are minced up so no-one knows the difference in the quality.
The exception for fish is that they are often sold from fishmongers/counters where you can see them. Not always though.
And I also have first hand experience of removing a large an unpleasant parasitic worm from the flesh of a piece of Salmon.
Lastly, I have kept fish for years* and worked in a pet shop for a few - animals grow just as big when confined or overcrowded. They're just miserable and sick.
Anyway.
I've said enough, I'll let someone else talk.
*happy fish - small tropicals in hugely oversized tanks. ie 150L and the biggest is about 5-6cm long.
I enjoy periods of veggie food but not enough to convert totally - as the wonderful fillet stake at Boisdales this lunchtime testifies. Nice and rare too.....mmmm almost mooing on the plate!
But if I am ever eating too much just drive past the local abbatoir and the smell has me reaching for the tofu immediately!!! 😉
Jesus I'm not reading all that.
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Vegetable rights and Peace!
No answer on the leather chaps question then? I think we can all draw our own conclusions from that I
Shorter version (simply add 'and gay' to the end, which effectively condenses this whole thread to an easily-digested 20 secs. Far less painful!)
I read somewhere that veggies kill more animals because of all the animals killed by combine harvesters. Funny as hell if true.EDIT: Hah found it....buowhahahahah
Has to be asked, did you believe the IFL article/research that you linked is sound because you wish to see vegetarians 'bested', or because the science is solid?
Here is one [url= http://www.theflamingvegan.com/view-post/Vegan-Mythbusting-1-Are-wild-animals-killed-when-grain-is-harvested-for-vegans ]rebuttal[/url] to the claims in the article that you linked (read top few comments). If true, it's quite sad that IFL took down the comments after just one day.
Curious things, humans. Many arguments/'debates' are fuelled by simply wanting to be right/wanting others to be wrong, rather than wishing to get at the actual facts/further debates of an issue? I might be treading that very line here, but it's good to have opposing views for comparison?
Why do people get bent out of shape about slaughtering a new born/young cow, but not a full grown cow? it's all the same isn't it?
Things have to die for us to live, that's life. just be glad you're top of the food chain and stop moaning. 😉
(To be fair, I think if you want to be veggie, good on you if it makes you feel better.)
Ref: decisions about the graduated scale of welfare/cruelty. Colin the chicken looked like a happy little guy 😀
If you want to give up meat - great, go for it. I had similar thoughts to you when I was early teenager and have not felt the desire to eat meat in any form since - bacon or not.
I've often thought that the transport and slaughter process is the worst part of meat production (from a welfare point of view, not an environmental one where water useage / methane production etc are wider issues). I've worked on farms in the past (as I grew up wanting to be a vet) and found most farmers to be caring and compassionate towards there livestock - a nervous cow does not give up milk / put on weight easily! However I have to imagine that anyone who works all day slaughtering animals is probably not the same mindset.
I have actually considered at length doing something about this and becoming a vegetarian slaughterman. To my shame though I know I wouldn't last a day.
Has to be asked, did you believe the IFL article/research that you linked is sound because you wish to see vegetarians 'bested', or because the science is solid?
There's something very peculiar about the veggie/meat-eating debate that unfailingly brings out a horde a meat-eaters to defend their eating habits and belittle the veggies with the age-old taunts about bacon and vegetable rights. I've never understood it. I can see that there would be a response if the veggies were getting on their high-horse but I've not come across many that do, it's usually exactly the opposite. Strange.
I have actually considered at length doing something about this and becoming a vegetarian slaughterman.
Many years ago, a friend of mine did exactly this. Didn't seem to conflict him at all, strangely...
Personally, one of my better decisions was to give up being a vegetarian, based on my experience since that date.
To balance things out, I'm giving up vegetables. I've just started my new regime with an enormous sausage, bacon and egg barm 😀
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Strange.
To me it's the veggies, actually more specifically the vegans that make it known and get on their high horse. There aren't any vids on youtube bragging about meat eating, but boy, there are a shed load of vids by vegans about how good they are and how better they are and how much fitter they are. And annoyingly some keep popping up in my youtube feed, and one is very very inaccurate facts and figures.
Apparently, cows are meat eaters. So all that green stuff that grows in fields must be "meat". You'd think a vegan would know what green stuff growing in a field is ffs. (edit: yes, that's the BS from one prominent vegan australian that competes in bike races)
"Binners Gets His Baps Out", candid pictures on page 4!
The bap part is of course "garnish", and not supposed to be eaten 😉
but boy, there are a shed load of vids by vegans about how good they are and how better they are and how much fitter they are. And annoyingly some keep popping up in my youtube feed
And there's the problem. I'm not sure youtube is a reliable indicator of the rights and wrongs of a particular debate. I know loads of vegans, I used to be one myself for a long time, and most of them couldn't care less what other people eat/do. Sure if prodded they'll engage you on the subject, and unsurprisingly they can talk at length about it, but my experience on the whole is that they find the subject very boring.
I know several too.
No prodding needed.
As the saying goes... "how can you tell someone's a vegan?" They'll tell you.
If the topic of food preference comes up, it will not be due to me saying "oh I love a good steak".
I have actually considered at length doing something about this and becoming a vegetarian slaughterman.Many years ago, a friend of mine did exactly this. Didn't seem to conflict him at all, strangely...
buy that man a beer from me.
Why do people get bent out of shape about slaughtering a new born/young cow
It's the eyelashes.
Spring Lamb seems to be far less contentious for some reason.
Lots claim to be doing it for moral or ethical reasons. I'd say that was fairly high horsey and implies meat eating is inherently unethical. A lot of the meat eater responses are simply pointing out that it is possible to be an unethical veggie too. IMO it's far more important to think about where all you food comes from rather than just claiming veggie good, meat bad as some have done.I can see that there would be a response if the veggies were getting on their high-horse but I've not come across many that do
dazh - MemberAnd there's the problem. I'm not sure youtube is a reliable indicator of the rights and wrongs of a particular debate. I know loads of vegans, I used to be one myself for a long time, and most of them couldn't care less what other people eat/do. Sure if prodded they'll engage you on the subject, and unsurprisingly they can talk at length about it, but my experience on the whole is that they find the subject very boring.
And that's why there is absolutely no truth in the "how do you know if someone is vegan?" joke.
<[i]insert chinnyreckon smiley here[/i]>
Ps. You've overdone your pseudo-blase stance, it's far too obvious. 😉
Seriously though, I use a cafetiere to make my coffee. Seems OK. Is there any REAL advantage in buying a Gaggia or is it just a plot to remove more buying credits from my bank account?
Lots claim to be doing it for moral or ethical reasons. I'd say that was fairly high horsey
Absolutely. When we go out for a meal with family, (Mrs MR is a vegan) she invariably has to ask waiter/chef if there is dairy in the veggie dish she orders. This normally prompts repeated questions (they forget every few months or so) from our exclusively omnivorous families (read: meat, taters, accidental veg=garnish) as to why she is a (sic) 'vegetarian'. She's asked me a number of times whether she should simply say'I don't want to talk about it' as any answer historically sets off the almost imperceptible eye-rolling and 'here she goes' vibe, or at best confused raft of inquisition-grade 'I don't see what difference one person is going to make, I just don't see it, why even bother etc' .
Because her personal choice is, mostly, informed by personal ethical decisions this is perceived by the inquisitioner as 'holier than thou' (projection?)
Even though she only campaigns for animal welfare and cruelty-free farming by petition, and never ever by person-to-person evangelising - she nonetheless cannot seem to avoid being picked out by non-veggies/vegans and almost forced to 'explain yourself'. Before being judged as uppity in some way. ('See the Bill Hick's 'pick up the gun' sketch!)
This thread is a perfect example of this in action. I think very often resentment arises simply because any question of ethics are raised. Yes there are preachy veggies etc, but there are defensive ones too. As a meat eater I've yet to be ear-bashed at the table by a veggie. But this has happened to Mrs M countless times, questioned, asked to defend self etc - always by non-veggies. I don't feel this is a reaction to some ranty vegan youtube video. My eyes and ears tell me it's because:
1. Her diet is different than the questioner
2. The question of ethics is raised after they asked why she is 'different'
Sorry for clumsy post but hope this gets over my frustration with lazy rants at 'out-group' individuals or similar generalising.
Edit: Oops, wrong thread.
never ever by person-to-person evangelising - she nonetheless cannot seem to avoid being picked out by non-veggies/vegans and almost forced to 'explain yourself'... This thread is a perfect example of this in action
Did you miss the bit where the thread was started by a prospective veggie attempting to explain their decision completely unbidden?
That's kinda how all threads start.
That's kinda how all threads start.
Well yes, but if the thread starts with an attempt to explain them self it can't be because of the rude omnivores forcing them to do it.
Malvern Rider hits the nail on the head. How many times have I asked a meat-eater 'why do you eat meat'? Zero (honest). How many time have I been asked 'why are you a veggie/vegan?'. I've lost count.
When I was vegan I never even used the word. I told people I was veggie cos you kind of have to if you've been invited out for dinner or you're going to a wedding or something. It's a bit embarrassing all round if your host serves up an expensive steak only to be told that their guests are not going to eat it. But on the vegan issue I just used to tell people that I don't eat dairy. Most of the time no one reacted, they just accepted it. But as soon as some people twigged that this must mean I'm a vegan, then the avalanche of idiotic questions would begin, along with a dissection of my own ethical stance on a myriad of issues from vegetable rights to the replenishment of global fish stocks. Try doing that 100 times and like I said, it gets very very boring.
Did you miss the bit where the thread was started by a prospective veggie attempting to explain their decision completely unbidden?
nope, did you miss the parts where I implored him not to do it? ;-). hopefully the ensuing thread will have beaten them off their high horse and rubbed some raw bacon in their face! thatll learn 'em proper.
I can't stand intensive farming and awful neglect and treatment of the animals in anyway shape or form being reared or slaughtered , plus awful conditions for animals being contained for their milk , eggs etc..
Basically my reason for not eating meat anymore. I have no issues with eating animals, but I do have issues with neglect, bad treatment and mass-farming methods. Similarly we buy free-range or organic eggs and the little dairy we do have tends to be organic.
Genuinely thought I'd miss it more than I do, and that was 18 years ago. The smell of bacon still makes me hungry, but for me it was always a let down eating it after it smelt so good.
I have been tempted by local, farm-produced sausages (the one thing that would bring me back to meat - cut sausage jokes) but it's just easier to cut the lot out.
Malvern Rider hits the nail on the head. How many times have I asked a meat-eater 'why do you eat meat'? Zero (honest). How many time have I been asked 'why are you a veggie/vegan?'. I've lost count.
+1
"Meat shaped objects" from Tesco's nearly put me off for life, try some Rump Steak from a proper butchers.
Can you imagine what the British countryside would look like if you replaced all the livestock farming with crop growing? Veggies, you can thank me for better views!
