[Closed] I think I'm gonna give up eating meat.

Is this like a mosh thread?

Kin ave it!

To the non-veggies, the best thing to do is to eat less meat

If you are giving up meat for moral reasons you should also not milk / cheese / dairy products as you can't separate the two. Eggs are different but dairy production is linked to meat production.

[quote=TheBrick ]If you are giving up meat for moral reasons you should also not milk / cheese / dairy products as you can't separate the two. Eggs are different
Yep. Eggs are easy to separate.

🙂

If you drink milk, you should also eat British rose veal. Not least because it's yummy!

I'm currently eating a bambi pie. Local deer, and very tasty it is too!

*drools*

So it would be better to substitute a bacon sandwich using bacon from a high welfare, certified, local farm with some battery eggs?

If you are giving up meat for moral reasons you should also not milk / cheese / dairy products as you can't separate the two. Eggs are different but dairy production is linked to meat production.

Or, not.

The issue isn't so simple, as nickjb noted. Not eating meat causes less animals to be farmed than eating meat. Not eating dairy products would also, but the issue is quite complicated by the problem we have with extreme levels of meat production and customer expectations of low prices for it. Reducing the quantity of meat consumed overall would lead to less intensive farming methods being practiced, well it could do.

And, as I noted earlier, Dairy cattle have a fairly reasonable existence on the whole in the EU. Certainly in comparison to other farmed animals.

Also - you can milk a cow twice*** but you can't fry a steakboef twice [by which I mean less animals have to die for milk production]

Being Vegan is a step to far for me personally. My ethics are less black and white.

It would be better for everyone if we ate less meat. You and the piggies.

Also, the amount of water required to "grow" meat is spectacular*, certainly in comparison** to to other foodstuffs. Owing to increasing water scarcity it will become far more expensive soon enough.

At the minute developing counties are beginning to aspire to the "Western" diet - meat consumption will be under pressure to increase many hundreds of percent.

*I think it might be several thousand times, in fact I remember it being 10,000 times but as I'm too lazy to find the source you'll have to find the figure yourself if you care. This may be of more importance in the US than here.
**eqv calories/nutritional value
***or perhaps even more if you do it nicely

If you drink milk, you should also eat British rose veal

Is that Male calf meat?

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I don't like the taste of cow though.

I'm currently eating a bambi pie. Local deer, and very tasty it is too!

Free range/wild deer that are selectively culled with a rifle to the brainboxboom have a pretty good life too.

Is that Male calf meat?

Yep. Not horrid forced veal like many places in Europe, but properly raised, high quality meat from animals that otherwise would be wasted. Buy from a good butcher, or Waitrose (Good standards for veal) Try it in a really simple schnitzel, coated in seasoned flour, dipped in a beaten egg and then covered in breadcrumbs (with crushed almonds in), fried in shallow, hot oil until golden brown. Serve with anything, really!

There's nothing wrong with meat if you eat proper meat.

Another thing to consider is transport. Eating beasts are transported to centralised warehouses under horrible conditions and slaughtered on a massive scale.

The transport is required because of factory farming, which is due to quantity of production/customer expectations of price.

Locally raised/slaughtered animals have far less trauma - but because we all eat so [b]much[/b] meat that isn't economically viable in the majority.

Then there's the issue of the killing.

Local slaughterman - individually killed animals, probably time to use the correct restraint and aim the bolt gun right.

Factory slaugherhouse - horrible crowding, terrified animals all held together [probably shitting on each other] and a lower rate of correct stunning/restraint.

Another issue - feeding/hormones/milk for fast growing meat.
Have you [i]seen[/i] a fasttracked chicken? The ones used in KFC or supermarket "value" meat? They're deformed, and in pain from it. They've been bred to grow so fat and so fast.

Now. Please excuse the quantity of typing; I'm really not having a go.

Do as you please.

I suggest you eat less meat. Perhaps none.

That's all.

Why is it that veggies need to bang on about not eating meat.

As always with these threads the ratio of defensive meat-eaters to veggies is about 10:1.

Here's an idea, what other people eat is not that big of a deal.

If you drink milk, you should also eat British rose veal. Not least because it's yummy!

Most male dairy calves are slaughtered at birth. Very few are required to be grown on to produce diary bulls. Genetics mean it is now getting straightforward to produce only female calves, which I think is cheating and I like a bit of veal now and then.

There are breeds which will produce beef and milk but not on the industrial scale required today. Cattle are bred for either beef or milk.

The reason I east some fish (sustainable fish, as advised by msc/fishonline) is because they're not farmed.

I don't think farmed is unsustainable.

I think many fish farms are cruelly overstocked and fish are not healthy.

What I was trying to get across above is that it's the farming I really don't like.

It would be interesting to know where you get your information from gofasterstripes. This is no longer the 1980s.

I feel hungry for chicken after reading this thread.

It would be interesting to know where you get your information from gofasterstripes. This is no longer the 1980s.

Which bit?

where the use of growth hormones is rife (banned in the EU)

The transport is required because of factory farming

FWIW I'm with the eat less but of better quality camp when it comes to meat.

Which bit?

Thanks for the heads-up.

70% is not 100%, and that's UK and Salmon specifically.

But I will have a look again.

I have been meaning to write an article on eating meat for the website MissStripes made, so I need to be up-to-date with my sources.

Also, I must be wrong about something 🙂 No one can be right all the time and I just wrote lots of IMHO stuff above and didn't bother to cite, so I must have made a mistake or two somewhere!

Cheers.

You could look at this line of thought and see where it takes you: unhealthy or overstocked fish do not grow and small or unhealthy fish do not get good prices. Good welfare makes good economics.

I see where you're coming from but I also see: fishcakes and crab sticks; not to mention other animals which are overstocked and yet grow huge [chickens] and then are minced up so no-one knows the difference in the quality.

The exception for fish is that they are often sold from fishmongers/counters where you can see them. Not always though.

And I also have first hand experience of removing a large an unpleasant parasitic worm from the flesh of a piece of Salmon.

Lastly, I have kept fish for years* and worked in a pet shop for a few - animals grow just as big when confined or overcrowded. They're just miserable and sick.

Anyway.

I've said enough, I'll let someone else talk.

*happy fish - small tropicals in hugely oversized tanks. ie 150L and the biggest is about 5-6cm long.

I enjoy periods of veggie food but not enough to convert totally - as the wonderful fillet stake at Boisdales this lunchtime testifies. Nice and rare too.....mmmm almost mooing on the plate!

But if I am ever eating too much just drive past the local abbatoir and the smell has me reaching for the tofu immediately!!! 😉

Jesus I'm not reading all that.

[img] [/img]
Vegetable rights and Peace!

No answer on the leather chaps question then? I think we can all draw our own conclusions from that I

Shorter version (simply add 'and gay' to the end, which effectively condenses this whole thread to an easily-digested 20 secs. Far less painful!)

I read somewhere that veggies kill more animals because of all the animals killed by combine harvesters. Funny as hell if true.

EDIT: Hah found it....buowhahahahah

Has to be asked, did you believe the IFL article/research that you linked is sound because you wish to see vegetarians 'bested', or because the science is solid?

Here is one [url= http://www.theflamingvegan.com/view-post/Vegan-Mythbusting-1-Are-wild-animals-killed-when-grain-is-harvested-for-vegans ]rebuttal[/url] to the claims in the article that you linked (read top few comments). If true, it's quite sad that IFL took down the comments after just one day.

Curious things, humans. Many arguments/'debates' are fuelled by simply wanting to be right/wanting others to be wrong, rather than wishing to get at the actual facts/further debates of an issue? I might be treading that very line here, but it's good to have opposing views for comparison?

Why do people get bent out of shape about slaughtering a new born/young cow, but not a full grown cow? it's all the same isn't it?

Things have to die for us to live, that's life. just be glad you're top of the food chain and stop moaning. 😉

(To be fair, I think if you want to be veggie, good on you if it makes you feel better.)

Ref: decisions about the graduated scale of welfare/cruelty. Colin the chicken looked like a happy little guy 😀

If you want to give up meat - great, go for it. I had similar thoughts to you when I was early teenager and have not felt the desire to eat meat in any form since - bacon or not.
I've often thought that the transport and slaughter process is the worst part of meat production (from a welfare point of view, not an environmental one where water useage / methane production etc are wider issues). I've worked on farms in the past (as I grew up wanting to be a vet) and found most farmers to be caring and compassionate towards there livestock - a nervous cow does not give up milk / put on weight easily! However I have to imagine that anyone who works all day slaughtering animals is probably not the same mindset.
I have actually considered at length doing something about this and becoming a vegetarian slaughterman. To my shame though I know I wouldn't last a day.

Has to be asked, did you believe the IFL article/research that you linked is sound because you wish to see vegetarians 'bested', or because the science is solid?

There's something very peculiar about the veggie/meat-eating debate that unfailingly brings out a horde a meat-eaters to defend their eating habits and belittle the veggies with the age-old taunts about bacon and vegetable rights. I've never understood it. I can see that there would be a response if the veggies were getting on their high-horse but I've not come across many that do, it's usually exactly the opposite. Strange.

I have actually considered at length doing something about this and becoming a vegetarian slaughterman.

Many years ago, a friend of mine did exactly this. Didn't seem to conflict him at all, strangely...

Personally, one of my better decisions was to give up being a vegetarian, based on my experience since that date.

To balance things out, I'm giving up vegetables. I've just started my new regime with an enormous sausage, bacon and egg barm 😀

[img] [/img]

Strange.
To me it's the veggies, actually more specifically the vegans that make it known and get on their high horse. There aren't any vids on youtube bragging about meat eating, but boy, there are a shed load of vids by vegans about how good they are and how better they are and how much fitter they are. And annoyingly some keep popping up in my youtube feed, and one is very very inaccurate facts and figures.

Apparently, cows are meat eaters. So all that green stuff that grows in fields must be "meat". You'd think a vegan would know what green stuff growing in a field is ffs. (edit: yes, that's the BS from one prominent vegan australian that competes in bike races)

"Binners Gets His Baps Out", candid pictures on page 4!

The bap part is of course "garnish", and not supposed to be eaten 😉

but boy, there are a shed load of vids by vegans about how good they are and how better they are and how much fitter they are. And annoyingly some keep popping up in my youtube feed

And there's the problem. I'm not sure youtube is a reliable indicator of the rights and wrongs of a particular debate. I know loads of vegans, I used to be one myself for a long time, and most of them couldn't care less what other people eat/do. Sure if prodded they'll engage you on the subject, and unsurprisingly they can talk at length about it, but my experience on the whole is that they find the subject very boring.

I know several too.
No prodding needed.
As the saying goes... "how can you tell someone's a vegan?" They'll tell you.
If the topic of food preference comes up, it will not be due to me saying "oh I love a good steak".

I have actually considered at length doing something about this and becoming a vegetarian slaughterman.

Many years ago, a friend of mine did exactly this. Didn't seem to conflict him at all, strangely...

Why do people get bent out of shape about slaughtering a new born/young cow

Spring Lamb seems to be far less contentious for some reason.

I can see that there would be a response if the veggies were getting on their high-horse but I've not come across many that do

dazh - Member

And there's the problem. I'm not sure youtube is a reliable indicator of the rights and wrongs of a particular debate. I know loads of vegans, I used to be one myself for a long time, and most of them couldn't care less what other people eat/do. Sure if prodded they'll engage you on the subject, and unsurprisingly they can talk at length about it, but my experience on the whole is that they find the subject very boring.

And that's why there is absolutely no truth in the "how do you know if someone is vegan?" joke.
<[i]insert chinnyreckon smiley here[/i]>

Ps. You've overdone your pseudo-blase stance, it's far too obvious. 😉

Seriously though, I use a cafetiere to make my coffee. Seems OK. Is there any REAL advantage in buying a Gaggia or is it just a plot to remove more buying credits from my bank account?

Lots claim to be doing it for moral or ethical reasons. I'd say that was fairly high horsey

Absolutely. When we go out for a meal with family, (Mrs MR is a vegan) she invariably has to ask waiter/chef if there is dairy in the veggie dish she orders. This normally prompts repeated questions (they forget every few months or so) from our exclusively omnivorous families (read: meat, taters, accidental veg=garnish) as to why she is a (sic) 'vegetarian'. She's asked me a number of times whether she should simply say'I don't want to talk about it' as any answer historically sets off the almost imperceptible eye-rolling and 'here she goes' vibe, or at best confused raft of inquisition-grade 'I don't see what difference one person is going to make, I just don't see it, why even bother etc' .

Because her personal choice is, mostly, informed by personal ethical decisions this is perceived by the inquisitioner as 'holier than thou' (projection?)

Even though she only campaigns for animal welfare and cruelty-free farming by petition, and never ever by person-to-person evangelising - she nonetheless cannot seem to avoid being picked out by non-veggies/vegans and almost forced to 'explain yourself'. Before being judged as uppity in some way. ('See the Bill Hick's 'pick up the gun' sketch!)

This thread is a perfect example of this in action. I think very often resentment arises simply because any question of ethics are raised. Yes there are preachy veggies etc, but there are defensive ones too. As a meat eater I've yet to be ear-bashed at the table by a veggie. But this has happened to Mrs M countless times, questioned, asked to defend self etc - always by non-veggies. I don't feel this is a reaction to some ranty vegan youtube video. My eyes and ears tell me it's because:

1. Her diet is different than the questioner
2. The question of ethics is raised after they asked why she is 'different'

Sorry for clumsy post but hope this gets over my frustration with lazy rants at 'out-group' individuals or similar generalising.

Edit: Oops, wrong thread.

never ever by person-to-person evangelising - she nonetheless cannot seem to avoid being picked out by non-veggies/vegans and almost forced to 'explain yourself'... This thread is a perfect example of this in action

Did you miss the bit where the thread was started by a prospective veggie attempting to explain their decision completely unbidden?

That's kinda how all threads start.

That's kinda how all threads start.

Well yes, but if the thread starts with an attempt to explain them self it can't be because of the rude omnivores forcing them to do it.

Malvern Rider hits the nail on the head. How many times have I asked a meat-eater 'why do you eat meat'? Zero (honest). How many time have I been asked 'why are you a veggie/vegan?'. I've lost count.

When I was vegan I never even used the word. I told people I was veggie cos you kind of have to if you've been invited out for dinner or you're going to a wedding or something. It's a bit embarrassing all round if your host serves up an expensive steak only to be told that their guests are not going to eat it. But on the vegan issue I just used to tell people that I don't eat dairy. Most of the time no one reacted, they just accepted it. But as soon as some people twigged that this must mean I'm a vegan, then the avalanche of idiotic questions would begin, along with a dissection of my own ethical stance on a myriad of issues from vegetable rights to the replenishment of global fish stocks. Try doing that 100 times and like I said, it gets very very boring.

Did you miss the bit where the thread was started by a prospective veggie attempting to explain their decision completely unbidden?

nope, did you miss the parts where I implored him not to do it? ;-). hopefully the ensuing thread will have beaten them off their high horse and rubbed some raw bacon in their face! thatll learn 'em proper.

I can't stand intensive farming and awful neglect and treatment of the animals in anyway shape or form being reared or slaughtered , plus awful conditions for animals being contained for their milk , eggs etc..

Basically my reason for not eating meat anymore. I have no issues with eating animals, but I do have issues with neglect, bad treatment and mass-farming methods. Similarly we buy free-range or organic eggs and the little dairy we do have tends to be organic.

Genuinely thought I'd miss it more than I do, and that was 18 years ago. The smell of bacon still makes me hungry, but for me it was always a let down eating it after it smelt so good.

I have been tempted by local, farm-produced sausages (the one thing that would bring me back to meat - cut sausage jokes) but it's just easier to cut the lot out.

Malvern Rider hits the nail on the head. How many times have I asked a meat-eater 'why do you eat meat'? Zero (honest). How many time have I been asked 'why are you a veggie/vegan?'. I've lost count.

+1

"Meat shaped objects" from Tesco's nearly put me off for life, try some Rump Steak from a proper butchers.

Can you imagine what the British countryside would look like if you replaced all the livestock farming with crop growing? Veggies, you can thank me for better views!

Pescetarian for over a year now. I make sure I only eat good quality non farmed seafood. Never drink milk and never have. Very very rarely eat cheese. Do eat eggs and I make sure they're free range etc.

Totally personal choice for me and I never advertise the fact or berate anyone for their own choices.

Has to be asked, did you believe the IFL article/research that you linked is sound because you wish to see vegetarians 'bested', or because the science is solid?

Here is one rebuttal to the claims in the article that you linked (read top few comments). If true, it's quite sad that IFL took down the comments after just one day.

Curious things, humans. Many arguments/'debates' are fuelled by simply wanting to be right/wanting others to be wrong, rather than wishing to get at the actual facts/further debates of an issue? I might be treading that very line here, but it's good to have opposing views for comparison?

I'll give you my reasons as to why I don't think that is a solid rebuttal, more of a challenge. Right now though, I have a PhD and two jobs to apply for...... maybe later on this evening Malvern.

Can you imagine what the British countryside would look like if you replaced all the livestock farming with crop growing? Veggies, you can thank me for better views!

Cheers. 😆

Totally personal choice for me and I never advertise the fact or berate anyone for their own choices.

And I think that's key. It's like religion or owning a road bike 🙂 - it's a personal choice that doesn't need to be shouted about. Those that do are often the more insecure in the choices they've made.

And, as I noted earlier, Dairy cattle have a fairly reasonable existence on the whole in the EU. Certainly in comparison to other farmed animals.

And Dairy cow still produce calves for the beef trade. I'm not saying be vegan (which is again a fine choice and many reason to be vegan to many different levels) but if your objections to eating meat are moral you are contradicting yourself by eating milk cheese e.t.c. You can be vegetarian for many reasons, but if its anti meat production you should not eat milk cheese e.t.c.. If you just want to reduce the amount of meat (because as you say the expectation of meat production and price is too high and unrealistic) being farmed and are happy with some meat production sure eat cheese, drink milk but at the same time you could just eat less meat, eat only higher quality less intensively farmed meat.

Right now though, I have a PhD and two jobs to apply for

I'll give you my reasons as to why I don't think that is a solid rebuttal, more of a challenge. Right now though, I have a PhD and two jobs to apply for...... maybe later on this evening Malvern.

Well, that would be interesting, if you have time. But really I was asking what honestly motivated the (let's be honest) mean-sounding/gloaty delivery of yr (rebuttal/challenge?) to the OP? And had you honestly done the research that allowed you to post the link in confidence, or must you now do the research in order to prove that you were right in doing so?

Surely you can see how it comes across?

All the best with the interviews btw!

"When I was vegan I never even used the word. I told people I was veggie cos you kind of have to if you've been invited out for dinner or you're going to a wedding or something. It's a bit embarrassing all round if your host serves up an expensive steak only to be told that their guests are not going to eat it. But on the vegan issue I just used to tell people that I don't eat dairy. Most of the time no one reacted, they just accepted it. But as soon as some people twigged that this must mean I'm a vegan, then the avalanche of idiotic questions would begin, along with a dissection of my own ethical stance on a myriad of issues from vegetable rights to the replenishment of global fish stocks. Try doing that 100 times and like I said, it gets very very boring"

Ok this has to stop, you just made my wife shout 'yes', enthusiastically. Multiple times.

[img] [/img]

The egss issue is a real one.

I got chickens, and if they aren't laying the farm has an honesty box for their near feral flock. I don't reckon most people would find it hard to find an ethical source even in towns these days.

Milk is more problematic. Even if every veggie went vegan it'd still be produced for the majority population.. does it bother me? I can't say I think too much on it to be honest, but then I wouldn't presume to tell anyone else what and what not to eat.

Apart from Rustlers, I mean FFS there are limits..

Go for it, OP!

I haven't eaten meat since 1980 and, trust me, it isn't an essential dietary requirement if you eat an otherwise well balanced diet. I raced (running) at a good club level as a vegetarian. Ignore the bacon and pie boys on here 🙂

I stopped eating meet a couple of months ago and honestly I barely miss it, even with a pretty heavy training program currently.

Also even when I ate meet I thought bacon was overrated. Chicken wings were the shit though. ****ing chicken wings.

OP it's your decision, no one else's. You don't need to justify if you do eat meat or you don't. Just understand where it comes from.

Outside of here no one really asks me about being a vegan. An occasional what do you eat but I have not had to play BS bingo in the real world for about 20 years. They do occasionally ask about the kids that ranges from curiosity because they eat their greens to I must be cruel as they have never been to Mc Donalds.

When I was vegan

Jots down name adds to list 😉

OP or indeed anyone here eat what you want and then STFU and let other people do the same.

Oh don't give up....may be I can tempt you with some dried meat....that costs 8 quid for 100g!!!

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-the-chichester-biltong-company

A good analogy to this would be never to be a consumer of apple products due to the shocking enlightenment of the way they treat their employees not to mention their profit figures make me physically sick.

Oh drat, I've just realised I dropped my steak burger all over my ipad!

😛 😆

Good on you. We eat a completely unsustainable quantity in the west.

* orders more bacon for the Minigaff trip *

refuses to share cakes he has made

Meh. I'm off carbs 😆