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[i]Yeah, how on earth did.....[/i]
Just ignore him...another subject he talks shite on.
...which conveniently, if understandably (!), ignores the rest of the day's events.
But lets keep playing the, "we are innocent victims here card". It makes us feel so much better.
But lets keep playing the, "we are innocent victims here card". It makes us feel so much better.
I see it as a case of not being fair because they beat [i]us[/i], I mean, how dare they?
You need to listen to people who have actually gone there in a professional capacity to evaluate the issues, rather than making such inflammatory comments!
Indeed rockape you do....
I'm loving the innocent English fans defense. Check out this guy, he appears to be taking a selfie as he throws a bottle at French police. Of course I'm sure that somehow Russian ultras are to blame.
[img] 
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Ohh and of course let's not forget the explosive device and flares the Russians managed somehow to smuggle into the ground.
Let's be straight here - if you actually read the reports (both the press and fan accounts) - the majority of the trouble appears to be started by the French and Russians charging at English fans. Yes our lot are rowdy and yes I accept they started some trouble but the worst and most concerning event was in the ground on Saturday night - the Russians somehow got past the fences and security and started on the English fans. The finger pointing for that event should be at the Russians and the French security.
Let's hope that the lunatic English fans that have banning orders don't travel to Russia in 2018 in some attempt to exact revenge on them because that could get very nasty.
I hereby christen you Context Kimbers. 😀
Let's be straight here - if you actually read the reports (both the press and fan accounts) - the majority of the trouble appears to be started by the French and Russians charging at English fans. Yes our lot are rowdy and yes I accept they started some trouble but the worst and most concerning event was in the ground on Saturday night - the Russians somehow got past the fences and security and started on the English fans.
Agreed
The finger pointing for that event should be at [s]the Russians and the French security.[/s] all involved
Otherwise it is simple hypocrisy/myopia...
Yes our lot are rowdy [b]and yes I accept they started some trouble[/b]
That's very noble of you. 😆
What I will say is that it's glaringly obvious from people's comments, exactly who has, and who hasn't, ever been to a high profile footy match, never mind an international.
Given that I haven't been to a high profile match, what am I missing?
When the Olympics were in London I was lucky enough to go to a few events (including the Velodrome) and the atmosphere was absolutely fantastic, both inside the venues and to be honest, across London as well. I felt as though everyone was in a better mood for about a month.
That's very noble of you.
Not at all. I have no vested interest in events, I am just trying to keep an open mind on what happened - the earlier link to the article in that Irish news site seemed to sum up events quite well in my opinion.
The problem with some English supporters (and TBH some English tourists generally) is not violence, but the normalisation of deeply anti-social behaviour in foreign cities. That, combined with a historical reputation for violence, makes confrontation far more likely.
2018 is going to be absolute nightmare at this rate.
EUFA has not helped the situation by allowing the random allocation of venues, and not looking closely at the timing of matches. Marseille would be your last choice for any match involving England. Our next match is in Lens, but fans have been advised to stay in nearby Lille in the run-up because Lens is too small to cope.
Who's playing in Lille on Wednesday? Russia.
Sighhhhh. If you want some context bongo, these images were taken 2 days ago when French police tried to disperse English fans who had become drunk and rowdy in the old town square in Marseille, the police were me with a rain of bottles from the English fans, perhaps you'd have responded in the same way, or maybe you'd take the hint that the police wanted you to disperse ?
Oh I forgot if you are a football fan, being an intimidating mob of intoxicated dicks is somehow ok
The bottom line is, if you see a group of lads wearing bum bags, then just walk the other way.
The article by Ken Early is good. Martin Hutch makes a good point. The problem is England fans reputation precedes them,and will do for some years to come. So in the meantime you either stay at home or if you do go lay off the drink.
Re: the trouble in the stadium, who's bright idea was it to put russian and english in the same stand! 😆
btw that article above, would ring true to my ears. I doubt there's English firms there out looking for trouble, and alot of it is reactionary. Violence in British fitba seems to be mostly of the organised sort these days, so usually out of view of the general crowds. You need to be aware that the reputation still holds though. So youse are easy targets.
gordimhor - Member
So in the meantime you either stay at home or if you do go lay off the drink.
Crazy talk! 😆
Without going into the merits or otherwise of Englands piece in this, of wider concern to me is that already in this tournament we are seeing a much wider spread of violent clashes. Obviously the scenes in Marseille, issues between Germany and Ukraine, reports of violence at the Norn Ireland v Poland match (though this was apparently instigated by local hooligans), and we're just 3 days into the tournament.
So my wider concern is that this tournament is becoming a display of the more general anti-establishment sentiment across Europe as a whole and runs a risk of being remembered for violence, not English violence, regional violence. Really hope I'm wrong as tournament football should be a festival!
(For comparisons, how much violence was there when Germany hosted the World Cup?, or even when the lat Euro's were help in Poland + Ukraine?)
I get the impression that hooligan culture is fairly wide spread and getting worse these days across Europe, particularly the further east you go. And it has shitebaggery as it's core philosophy (ie hit and run and pick off the weakest)
That's not from any great experience though, just a general impression. Ultras groups in the UK seem to be a fairly benign force, but that's different elsewhere.
There was some trouble at Celtic v Ajax few years ago mind, 2012, i completely missed it in mind you, was just round the corner too busy getting stoned! 😆 Impressions are that it took on a similar hit and run feel, then the heavy handed police step in. Few bars attacked the previous night. A fair few Celtic fans were arrested and charged, later charges all dropped if I remember right.
In those situations, not much you can do but retaliate and the obvious repercussions of that are that it escalates in to trouble with the polis.
So it can happen to anyone, not like we have a reputation for causing bother.
Interesting read - the view of [url= https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/12/britains-euro-2016-police-chief-lambasts-tooled-up-russian-fans ]Britain's Euro 2016 police chief[/url]
Teargas is not unusual in France, its standard CRS practice. It is a day to day tactic and does not mean there has been much more than a face to face confrontation. As I said I am sure there has been bad behaviour but the French policing has been very poor, why no alcohol ban, why no stop and search (knives, martial arts gloves), why no fan segregation, how come rockets and flares where inside the stadium ?
I need to dig out my photos of the Paris riot police firing tear gas and using water canons against rioters from a few years ago. The rioters where striking firemen who had blockaded L'Opera and had set light to various piles of rubbish/wood etc. There have been near daily riots in the last month all across France over Hollande's labour reforms.
how come rockets and flares where inside the stadium
Yeah, given what happened last November (bear in mind that one attempted attack at the Stade de France was thwarted) I am stunned that the security wasn't watertight on Saturday night and we can only hope that the weekend's events kicks the collective arse of the French Security Forces.
Security is an illusion and it's impossible for it to be total.
Segregration is absolutely possible though, mental that they were in the same stand.
duckman
Atgray,are you ignoring the fact that English fans still knock lumps out of each other in domestic games? What about the international game;what's your opinion on the behaviour of the Folks who follow the national side Atgray,or do they not fit your tired,made up,bleating? Stick to posting claims about "Scottish white van man" that also don't bear up to any scrutiny. At least you give us a laugh then,oh;and it is snobbery on your part.
I sometimes wonder why I reply to you but here goes.
I was not attempting to play Scottish football fans against English ones. My gripe is with football tribalism in general and how it manifests itself. I only used Scottish Cup final as it is recent and the footage of people attacking each other is quite clear.
I could not have cared whether it was Scotland, England or Timbuktu to be honest.
The violence and general sinister undercurrent tends to take place away from grounds. What happens to domestic abuse figures across the country when rival teams play for example. My argument was that I would rather have my kids follow other sports.
Duckman if you could be please be stupid enough to post a video of violence at an English game as you said happens, this would be appreciated to prove my point. Thanks
Whilst I think it looks that the England fans are more the victim when it comes to the main violence in the Stadium, it must be said that even a small group of football fans can be quite intimidating, to the point that they can instigate trouble without even trying too hard.
I went to the pub with some friends to watch the England game and it never ceases to amaze me how even the most good natured fan behaviour (chanting, singing, gathering en-masse etc) can result in a sinister atmosphere. Relocate this to a country/town of a different culture and I imagine it can really upset/antagonise the locals.
Security is an illusion and it's impossible for it to be total.
Fair enough I accept that, but it is scary that the stuff is so easy to get into a ground. If a group of mentalist Russians can do it, a group of mentalist IS supporters could...
That's just life in an open society, it has it's vunerabilities. Personally I wouldn't change our open societies, for an illusion of security.
Specifically in regards to IS, if that's going to happen it's going to happen... Recent events tell you that you can't protect against it.
Duckman if you could be please be stupid enough to post a video of violence at an English game as you said happens, this would be appreciated to prove my point. Thanks
Stupid enough? You are the one making sweeping claims fella. Why don't you have a wee sit down and then google Milwall v Barnsley?(as mentioned by others) Or you could answer my original question about the Scottish supporters...I see you ignored SS's point about that being the first trouble inside a ground in 36 years as well... 😆
For the adults...Scottish supporters were horrible in the 70's and early 80's. They had a reboot of their behaviour and make a point of being fairly self policing,the biggest problem they create now is pishing in the street. The problem England has is your reputation precedes you. So even if there is a change in the type of supporters, you lot are stuffed for years if not decades to come. And the majority of the England fans have my sympathy, if people are chucking stuff at you then I can't believe some folks are surprised they threw it back.
This thread seems to have actually achieved the optimum mix of ill-informed, judgemental tabloidesque high-horsery, and piddling-your-petticoats in horror, middle class, bed-wettery
We've been threatening to get there for a while now. Well done! We made it in the end 😀
They had a reboot of their behaviour
Was this organised and overseen by a Hollywood movie mogul by any chance?
This thread seems to have actually achieved the optimum mix of ill-informed, judgemental tabloidesque high-horsery, and piddling-your-petticoats in horror, middle class, bed-wettery
You mean you don't buy into football following the good example set by rugby, where opposing fans sit together, everyone drinks sensibly, and sings one inoffensive hymn for the entire match?
There were widespread clashes today between rival athletics fans today at the Rio Olympics. Police used teargas to disperse running battles on Copacabana beach between violent and drunken javelin enthusiasts
Said absolutely no one ever.
Football has to take a serious look at the dickhead element that's associated with it. It simply doesn't exist in other sports or at other major tournaments.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36515213 ]More finger pointing at the Russians...[/url]
Well, that's that settled.
The three days of rioting involving English hooligans was the fault of Russian hooligans.
Football has to take a serious look at the dickhead element that's associated with it. It simply doesn't exist in other sports or at other major tournaments.
I'm in no way defending or justifying hooliganism, but if you think football could be like athletics then you really don't understand it.
Football has to take a serious look at the dickhead element that's associated with it. It simply doesn't exist in other sports or at other major tournaments.
True; however i suspect the dickhead element just exists, and if it wasn't football then it would surface elsewhere. Football, being the ubiquitous game and the most watched sport of all is a convenient vehicle where the dickhead element can justifiably travel to meet up with other dickheads and kick each other about for a bit. Blaming football itself doesn't address the issue which is that there will always be dickheads. A huge proportion of football fans have no interest at all in causing trouble.
I believe that the English game, and the English police have made huge steps in weeding out the troublesome elements and largely preventing them from travelling. It's still not perfect as recent scenes have shown, but I do think other nations are lagging behind somewhat.
When i was a kid, 30 years ago, there were 3 schools in close proximity to each other in my home town. There were a spate of incidents where groups of tough kids would arrange to meet up with the other schools for fights. The schools were the badge of allegiance, but no-one suggested banning schools as a result. They dealt with the troublemakers individually. It's the same thing on a different scale.
You mean you don't buy into football following the good example set by rugby, where opposing fans sit together, everyone drinks sensibly, and sings one inoffensive hymn for the entire match?
😀
I am surprised that anyone can see a screen, given how big that particular elephant is
😉
but if you think football could be like athletics then you really don't understand it.
Very true, it is difficult to understand many of the ugly manifestations of our national sport. Respect....
Well, that's that settled.The three days of rioting involving English hooligans was the fault of Russian hooligans.
Well they said
[b]Some 150 Russians were behind much of the violence[/b] in Marseille ahead of the Euro 2016 match between England and Russia,[b] French prosecutors have said[/b].
So yes, you are correct.
The three days of rioting involving English hooligans was the fault of Russian hooligans.
Yes, yes. Very good.
Anyway, one thing that concerns me with the 2 groups of fans set to be near each other again, [url= https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jun/12/england-russia-fan-violence-marseille-planning?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter ]well done UEFA btw[/url], is that those English hooligans who are subject to banning orders etc, may make a concerted effort to get round these and get out to France. Probably under some misguided notion of 'defending their honour' or some such nonsense.
so the english fans throwing bottles at french police were actually just manipulated by the russians?
so the english fans throwing bottles at french police were actually just manipulated by the russians
Why are you being wilfully ignorant? No one is saying, well maybe one person is, that the English are without any responsibility here. The point that is trying to be made, is that there....oh, I can't be bothered.
so the english fans throwing bottles at french police were actually just manipulated by the russians?
Has anyone said that?
I do wonder at the rise of far right populism and the xenophobia that is seen with the Brexit campaign having an effect on these mobs
certainly state TV extolling the virtues of Russian hooligans seems doesnt help
the clashes between the english and french police a few days ago were accompanied by chants of
“**** off Europe, we’re all voting out”
“sit down if you hate the French”
“Isis, where are you?”
Bare-chested fans also sang songs about the IRA and German bombers being shot down
I know theres always been banter at international matches, I suppose football tribalism and rivalry is better than actual wars
Segregration is absolutely possible though, mental that they were in the same stand.
Why? I am struggling to think of any other sport where fans are segregated.