[Closed] Hunting Act Amendment...

Tories bottled it then.

[i]Tories bottled it then. [/i]

bit early in their term to have to suffer a defeat as a result of a back bench revolt.

I did wonder if the whole thing was to get the SNP to declare they'd vote on an 'English matter' and strengthen the case for 'english votes for english issues'.

did wonder if the whole thing was to get the SNP to declare they'd vote on an 'English matter' and strengthen the case for 'english votes for english issues'.

Yep, I think it's fairly clear now - I think iseeing them stick their oar in, and declaring that it was largely political* will have galvanised some real support for EVEL

* see SNP statement:
"[i]We are in a situation where the Tory government are refusing to agree to any amendments to improve the Scotland Bill - which are supported by 58 of Scotland's 59 MPs - and imposing English Votes for English Laws to make Scotland's representation at Westminster second class.
"In these circumstances, it is right and proper that we assert the Scottish interest on fox hunting by voting with Labour against the Tories' proposals to relax the ban - in the process, reminding an arrogant UK government of just how slender their majority is - just as we will vote against the Tory welfare cuts next week, and appeal to Labour to join us."[/i]

[quote=bruneep ]Tories bottled it then.

Well I suppose that depends whether you'd describe them postponing it because they'd lose the vote now but will win it once they've stopped the SNP MPs from voting on it as "bottling it".

What exactly is the moral difference between enjoying the killing and enjoying the product of the killing?

Are you for real?

You can't see the difference? Is there really no nuance in this issue for you? It's just black and white?

ninfan - Member

What exactly is the moral difference between enjoying the killing and enjoying the product of the killing?

i'd suggest that's something every individual might do well to contemplate.

(including me)

SNP should have kept schtuum on their reasons until after the vote on fox hunting, imo.

I think SNP are going to get taught a lesson about the consequences of trying to throw their weight around when they're not the heaviest beast in the jungle.

To be fair to the SNP they seemed to have become the de facto opposition in the face of the already completely useless and irrelevent labour party now expending what little clueless energy it has on navel gazing, and generally flailing about.

I'd say that in poking some toffs in the eye with a stick (because thats what this is really about), the SNP are probably representing a big chunk of their voters pretty well.

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly depressing that once again parliamentary time is being given over to this ridiculous matter, that effects how many people exactly...?

Its a very British way to conduct a class war

[quote=binners ]Am I the only one who finds it incredibly depressing that once again parliamentary time is being given over to this ridiculous matter, that effects how many people exactly...?

Almost as depressing as incorrect use of the word "effects" 😉

Though seeing stuff like this going on does reinforce the impression that it's all a load of playground games, even to the SNP MPs who claim to be different.

wwaswas - Member

bit early in their term to have to suffer a defeat as a result of a back bench revolt.

This [i]is[/i] a defeat as a result of a back bench revolt.

Well I suppose that depends whether you'd describe them postponing it because they'd lose the vote now but will win it once they've stopped the SNP MPs from voting on it as "bottling it".

The Tories will being in EVEL and return to this fox hunting vote and pass it that way. Many people would call this cheating - for the Tories to be seen to be cheating can only be a good thing in my book.

At some point the opposition of all parties will realise that the Tories are getting really quite good at this politics thing (not necessarily the same as being good at running country).

In just 2 weeks they've managed to paint themselves as the party of the blue collar worker and Labour as the party of skivers. Plus have managed to paint the SNP as the typical stereotypical Scot who support anyone but England. The 2nd of these is even more amazing when you consider they have turned a defeat by their own backbenches into a win!

Be interesting to see what concessions they can get out of Europe now, and then try and strangle the UKIP vote.

If anything is more calculated to get the Tory rebels back onside on the EVEL issue it is the impertinent Scots poking their noses into English fox hunting business, even though it is pretty much just bringing it in line with Scotland.

The ironic aspect is that most Conservative ministers are not particularly bothered about the fox hunting issue anyway, it’s only been reintroduced as a sop to the right wingers. Even more ironic is the fact that for Conservative and Labour MPs it’s a free vote. Only the SNP are telling their MPs how to vote. You really couldn’t make it up. Cameron will be rubbing his hands in glee!

Funny how things change

Nicola Sturgeon, [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/08/nicola-sturgeon-snp-mps-will-vote-on-english-issues?CMP=share_btn_tw ]Feburary 8th 2015[/url]
“The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as foxhunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that. Where any issue is genuinely “English-only”, with no impact on Scotland, the case for Evel can be made.”

SNP website, May 19 2015: https://archive.is/racY4
“The SNP has a long-standing position of not voting on matters that only affect England. The Hunting Act is one such matter that purely affects England and Wales, and so SNP MPs would not vote on this issue.”

“The SNP has a long-standing position of not voting on matters that only affect England. The Hunting Act is one such matter that purely affects England and Wales, and so SNP MPs would not vote on this issue.”

Some might say that the Scotland Bill which only one Scottish MP agreed with and 58 did not means that it's open season and all bets are off.

Some might say that the SNP have just shot their own fox 😆

Some might say that the Scotland Bill which only one Scottish MP agreed with and 58 did not means that it's open season and all bets are off.

The Scotland Bill affects the whole UK.

Just as EVEL affects the whole UK and so if it were tabled as a bill then the SNP should get a vote on it. But it's going in by the back door instead - perhaps technically right but morally wrong.

You underestimate Nicola Sturgeon.

The SNP are just wasting no time in giving Dave a prod, and reminding him just how slim his majority is

I'm out and about a lot and cant say I've seen more than one or two fox's in the lasst year. Are they really a sustantial enough risk to chickens and such that they need large culling operations?

Nicola (bless her) has said that the SNP have had requests by ordinary English voters to act on this. They find themselves playing the role of opposition while Labour, err, I'm not sure.

Remind me please, what are Labour doing apart from squabbling?

Remind me please, what are Labour doing apart from squabbling?

The headless chicken dance?

The SNP are far more organised and coherent (so much so that they are being whipped on a free vote). If the Labour leadership could muster a brain cell between them then the SNP would not be nearly so popular as they are.

ninfan - Member
Some might say that the SNP have just shot their own fox

I think that's the case, but they have usually thought out their actions several moves ahead, so it will be interesting to see if this is to deliberately prod the Tories into an over reaction.

i'm sure / i'd like to think that fox-hunters don't really enjoy the killing

Of course they do, I know a guy who is obsessed with shooting, he's a farmer and carries his gun all day in the tractor as well as lamping by night and shoots everything that moves on his farm; crows, rabbits, foxes, everything. Last time I saw him he'd just been on a beaver shooting holiday in Sweden. It's no different from mountain biking, just another interest/hobby that brings people great enjoyment and they spend all the spare time and money they can doing it.

There are a number of issues here.
The Tories knew, despite their manefesto commitment, that they would never get a repeal through a free vote in the commons as things stand.
So they tried to use a Statutory Instrument, but still failed to get a substantial majority of their own MP's to toe the line- it was touch and go even before the SNP put their oar in.
Even under the EVEL proposals that they have had to kick down the road because, again, they knew they may not get a majority, ALL MP's regardless of where their constituency is, would still be eligible to vote on Statutory instruments

Who has won on this one? Too soon to tell, but as has been said on one of the broadsheet websites, it makes Cameron's task of bringing through contentious UK wide legislation much more tricky, and will continue to do so even after EVEL.

Will they force through an upgraded version of EVEL and then win a free vote on repeal of huntingbin England and Wales? If the polls are right, most of the UK population do not want a return to Hunting as it was pre the Act, and those with slender majorities may do the right thing.

I'm out and about a lot and cant say I've seen more than one or two fox's in the lasst year. Are they really a sustantial enough risk to chickens and such that they need large culling operations?

I probably see a fox a week on average. But i live in he suburbs and we just control the numbers with cars which seems pretty efficient. Country folk just wouldn't understand our ways.

am I right in thinking that the Scots allow hunting foxes with dogs?
Was the amendment meant to come in to line with the scottish law?

Why are the people not bashing the Scottish Toffs for fox hunting?
Why dont the SNP change the law in Scotland if they are so against it in the UK

does anyone else get frustrated with the politics of the UK

does anyone else get frustrated with the politics of the UK

for the SNP they are the politics of separation, EVEL is arguably to their benefit politically

however all the parties north of the border will point to the SNP and say they are going to have English laws for Scottish foxes whether they put it in their manifesto or not 😉

Why dont the SNP change the law in Scotland if they are so against it in the UK

This may be an outcome from today's events, the SNP have made that very point and will probably look again at their own legislation. The biggest loosers may well be the Scottish Hunting Lobby. Bet they are seething this afternoon

Be better if the SNP could concentrate on sorting out their fiasco of a Police force. But hey watching tennis and then playing petty politics with hunting is more important 🙄

Remind me please, what are Labour doing apart from squabbling?

They're abstaining on the welfare bill. A bill that's deliberately designed to target the poorest and most deprived people in the UK and make them considerably poorer, and Labour are abstaining on it.

Useless ****ers.

Who's played a cleverer game? The SNP's aim is obvious, they want Scottish independence. EVEL helps with that. But what's the Tories' aim? What do they really want? Do they really want to break up the UK? Or do they think we'll keep being passive and subservient while they continue to sell off the country to their mates?

On foxhunting, there's a desperate attempt to portray this as Scotland vs England. It isn't - 80% of people in England oppose foxhunting. This is rich psychopaths vs everyone else. Just like all the other arguments in politics at the moment.

Be better if the SNP could concentrate on sorting out their fiasco of a Police force.

It's interesting how this is being reported. There are serious questions to be asked about the death in custody, and that should be investigated. But the car crash? The person who reported the crashed car called 101, the non-emergency number. There are still important questions to be asked, but one should be should the public be expected to triage incidents?

On foxhunting, there's a desperate attempt to portray this as Scotland vs England. It isn't - 80% of people in England oppose foxhunting. This is rich psychopaths vs everyone else.

I think it's safe to say 80% of the people in England probably don't have a clue what the SI would have allowed. A similar % probably don't realise that the "peoples champion" is allowing this cruelty to persist in Scotland despite being able to change it for a number of years

how long before English (and Welsh) laws for Scottish foxes? or is the SNP going to dodge and duck an issue that they could implement quickly?

[quote=binners ]The SNP are just wasting no time in giving Dave a prod, and reminding him just how slim his majority is

On a matter which was a free vote for all the other parties 🙄

[quote=epicyclo ]I think that's the case, but they have usually thought out their actions several moves ahead, so it will be interesting to see if this is to deliberately prod the Tories into an over reaction.

Hmm. The SNP currently manage to look like they've thought several moves ahead. The Tories are thinking so many moves ahead most people don't even notice.

re police, its not just a scottish thing!

fb friend just posted up that she visited her old police station to find the 12 officers on her shift are now 1 PCSO and 1 PC, any ilegal fox hunting in Slough can probably proceed with imunity

So how come no protests outside the Scottish parliament against fox hunting?

how long before English (and Welsh) laws for Scottish foxes? or is the SNP going to dodge and duck an issue that they could implement quickly?

Yes, the SNP need to get on top of that quickly. Hopefully this'll push them that way.

i'm sure / i'd like to think that fox-hunters don't really enjoy the killing

It depends what you mean by fox hunters. 90% of a "fox hunt" is made up of hobnobbing subscribers, interested in little more than trotting along swapping village gossip, and they'll rarely be present at a kill. They will likely see the mangled remains of a fox. It's like being fond of meat but distancing yourself from the slaughter - you know it happens but let's not think too much about it.
The people at the sharp end of a hunt (terrierman, master and whippers in) undoubtably enjoy it. 20 something years spent as a hunt sab trying to get in between the terrierman and the exhausted animal have left me in no doubt of that.

80% of people in England oppose foxhunting

?

Yougov reckon 51% support the ban, 33% oppose it:

However, given a more complex choice, such as the changes actually proposed, the ORB survey shows only 40% want to see no change, 24% support the 'full pack' revision, and 16% total repeal:

Hahahah - the thoroughly shot down LACS/Mori polls:

[img] [/img]

am I right in thinking that the Scots allow hunting foxes with dogs?
Was the amendment meant to come in to line with the scottish law?

Why are the people not bashing the Scottish Toffs for fox hunting?

grumpysculler - Member
...Some are, the SNP don't like to draw attention to it. Their adherence to the political hypocratic oath exceeds even the Tories.

epicyclo - Member

I have no problem with a managed countryside where vermin are controlled by skilled experts.

I have no problem with hunting for the pot even with dogs.

Killing animals for fun though is a different thing

I reckon that gamekeepers really enjoy their job.
They must do, they don't seem to get paid much.

I understand the subtleties regarding the arguments against hunting - not a fan myself, but......

I eat meat and drink milk.
I really enjoy it. I'm equally as responsible for the death of the animals as the slaughterman that killed them.
No problem with that.

I also like fishing.
Well, some of it.
I hate the commercialised fisheries that seem of have sprung up - the UK equivalent of shooting a caged lion.
Overstocked and infested with ****ers.

But I do like a day somewhere quiet, torturing fish/enjoying the 'sport'/insert own prejudice here.
I don't eat everything I catch.

I do find the concept of watching a fox being ripped to pieces by dogs repulsive - and that the enjoyment of it would appear to be perverse.

However, I'm fully aware of the hypocrisy and contradiction inherent in my position.

I think it's easier to point at others than to address your own reality.
An essential, sometimes ugly ability that stops us going mad.
🙂

when humans start caring about the horrors inflicted upon their own species, the children, the elderly, the infirm and the impoverished. Only then will I give two shits about what is to be considered "humane".

Did you mean to put "Tories" instead of "humans" there?