They’d spiral a wee bit less if HS2 didn’t have to provide security for every metre of land they rip up
Don't fall for that newest of utter ballcocks HS2 are spouting.
People aren't protesting for a laugh. Much of what HS2 are doing is illegal but sanctioned. The security is to stop this being recorded/witnessed/reported.
It doesn't take much looking to find them ignoring laws put in place to protect habitats of species at risk. For instance, they're not allowed to work within so many metres of badger setts. There's video around if you can be arsed of them breaking this blatantly, and even using machinery with longer reach so that technically, they are outside that boundary.
Many councils and contractors were also made to sign non disclosure agreements.
The cost isn't spiralling because of protests by a few people who GAF and recognise this project for what it is, it's spiralling because it's utterly ill-conceived, entirely corrupt and monumentally poorly implemented.
Look at the recent highlighting of corrupt practises in requisition of PPE during the start of the pandemic. This isn't any different. Seriously, protestors are not responsible for the spiralling costs. Ridiculous claim.
I have sites all around me in Warwickshire and I've been up to a few of the encampments to offer support, firewood, tools etc where I can and the amount of people there compared to the hired in mob and police security presence is just insanity.
There's just no doubt, they do not want people to see what they are doing. Get in quick, raze everything to the ground and destroy everything before anyone can get anywhere near.
Frankly this pandemic has been a gift for this project as it meant that they could go ahead and do whatever the F they wanted while we are all looking the other way.
The trouble with a project like this is that an awful lot of people are not directly affected and so it's difficult to get them to GAS.
Here in Warwickshire, we are severely affected sadly. They really have f'ed up my nearby countryside profoundly.
I imagine a lot of you who are in favour might think differently if you were witness to what's happening in your own 'back yards'.
Ever continuous expansion and growth just isn't sustainable. This project is a travesty, it really is.
Maybe I should have put "a wee bit less" in bold.
I live within 1 mile of the route nr the Chilterns, so it does and will effect me but a lot of the complaining I see coming from the local nimbys who otherwise have zero concern for the environment.
It's the biggest money pit this country has ever witnessed, & probably ever will witness.
Disgusting.
esselgruntfuttock
It’s the biggest money pit this country has ever witnessed, & probably ever will witness.
Disgusting.
Should this post have gone in the Brexit thread? 😉
National Infrastructure Commission report out today, the Rail Needs Assessment.
Summary of it on the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-55303978
The actual Assessment itself:
What its done is present a series of options to Government to allow them to decide on which option(s) to fund. However it's favouring regional and local connectivity in the North over and above HS2 (although a lot of that regional connectivity kind of relies on HS2 being there as well). Be interesting to see what the responses are. I already know the responses from the east of the Pennines and they're not happy at all. Was only 9 months ago that Boris was promising to build all of HS2 in full (although we all know that a Boris Promise is, in the great quote from [i]Snatch[/i] "Spurious. Not genuine. And it's worth... ****-all." )
It’s catch 22 - I don’t believe they were ever going to build it all in full. It was never affordable in the first place. But you have to build it in full to deliver the benefits that were supposed to be there. Now it really is unaffordable as the passengers have disappeared and they ain’t coming back any time soon. But never mind, it’s made a few people very rich in the meantime, as well as tearing up irreplaceable countryside.
When John Armitt says it won’t be built there is no chance....
Only mention of economics as usual. Nothing about the irreparable environmental devastation and loss of habitat it's causing.
Kin humans man. 😡
It's more and more laughably obvious what this whole thing was about all along, as if any further indication were needed.
**** this government.
Just wanted to say my local Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury service is 75 miles in 2 hours so beat that! They also have the latest European rail traffic management system.
I'm actually in favour of HS2.
It's not just faster, but will increase volume and therefore (in theory) reduce congestion.
Obviously, if you live along the route, you may disagree!
I'd rather go by train than car.
Obviously, if you live along the route, you may disagree!
**** right!
That's the trouble really. Those that don't, have no idea of the destruction, can't directly relate to it and are unlikely to give a shit either.
The world has changed and must change.
Increasing capacity and movement isn't the answer. Reducing it has to be.
There's other routes to increase existing capacity and this is nothing to do with some humble attempt to improve things for everyone.
It's a **** gravy train.
Deplorable and irreversible.
Glad I've not got kids that'll inherit all this.
I really despair how anyone can support this.
Glad I’ve not got kids that’ll inherit all this.
What, a decent rail network?
The big issue with the destruction of wild habitats, by the way, isn't that they are being destroyed, it's that there are so few of them in the first place. So reserve your anger for the fact that habitats are not being restored or created.
It’s the biggest money pit this country has ever witnessed, & probably ever will witness.
You're going to be shocked when you hear about brexit.
Isn’t the general consensus amongst experts that it will never get past Birmingham as the costs will be so astronomical by that point they’ll just scrap the northern section?
I suspect you might be right @binners.
There's a rather unassuming paragraph in a TfL Board Report (for their meeting on 3rd Feb) which says: (my bold)
[i]We continue to provide input into the DfTled study on proposals for Euston following publication of the Oakervee Review in 2020. [b]The DfT has recently instructed HS2 to proceed with further design development for one of the options, which provides a solution based around 10 HS2 platforms, a single stage build and increased oversite development[/b]. However, the impact on our infrastructure, operations and passengers needs further consideration. We are therefore working alongside other key stakeholders, including HS2 Ltd, Network Rail, London Borough of Camden and Lendlease, under the umbrella of the newly formed Euston Partnership, to assess the proposals and refine early scheme designs, and to assist with work on affordability to ensure investment delivers best value.[/i]
Which translates to: Cutting Euston capacity means cutting a route somewhere else on the network - this is the precursor to binning off the Eastern Leg or similar.
So much for levelling up the North, this more or less tells The North that as far as the Tories are concerned, it's a blank space on the map between Birmingham and Scotland.
Meanwhile protestors have literally 'dug in' underneath part of the route.
Fair play to them, but all I see happening is minor delay whilst protestors removed, private contractors claim additional costs for delay, project goes on at slightly increased cost, contractors profit.
Well, It looks like HS2 has had its complete White Elephant status absolutely nailed on now. It won't be going North of Birmingham, as predicted by pretty much everyone who knew what they were talking about
But the project to spend £100 billion on a badly planned commuter line from the Midlands into London, leaving environmental devastation in its wake, carries on regardless. This is what 'levelling up' really looks like for the north. We won't be getting any of the desperately needed rail investment while the financial black hole of HS2 sucks in tens of billions to build a commuter line to service the capital.
https://twitter.com/stophs2/status/1421082126561255428?s=20
Its difficult to see any useful purpose for this ridiculous nonsense other than to line the pockets of the parties involved, particularly in a post-covid world where the need to jump on a train to go for a meeting in London has been replaced, quite rightly, by the Zoom call
I don't live to far from the Warwickshire end if this mess. As others have posted it's borderline criminal destruction.
It was never going past brum at all.. everyone knows it. It was just about commuiting to London from the posh parts of Warwickshire for 3 days in the office.
Should have spent the cash from stoke up on community and work prospects
It was never going past brum at all.. everyone knows it.
Yeah but no but yeah...
The plans and overall aim are actually pretty good and some of the promises, especially in the early days were quite well...promising.
But it's been beset by the standard British ingredients of ineptitude, legal wrangling, incompetence and dithering at almost every level. Should have got the Chinese to build it. It'd be up in Edinburgh by now and already running 10 fast trains an hour.
Government are delaying the already long-delayed Integrated Rail Plan publication which is supposed to be outlining rail for the next 100 years in the UK. Cynically, you'd say this is because it absolutely knackers the North completely (the North already being about 25 years behind in rail investment) and they're putting off the outrage for as long as possible but who knows. It's leaving complementary projects in limbo - stuff like Northern Powerhouse Rail and a lot of other local planning that is predicated on HS2 being delivered.
As for environmental stuff, yeah, it's problematic becasue it's one massive project. However the current £27bn RIS2 roads investment plan destroys far more ancient woodland than HS2 as well as building in embedded carbon for centuries (unlike HS2 which is a very efficient mode of transport). However because it's being done in small packages (a road widening here, a bit of new bypass there, a reworked junction somewhere else), it's unfortunately not sparked anything like the same levels of complaint from environmental activists which is a massive shame.
We absolutely need to be pushing rail, freeing up capacity on regional and local lines especially for freight but the messaging on HS2 has been wildly out of kilter with that. Plus as I say the standard management and Government incompetence.
106 billion!
You could buy 424 royal yachts for that.
It’s leaving complementary projects in limbo – stuff like Northern Powerhouse Rail and a lot of other local planning that is predicated on HS2 being delivered.
This. The plans for Sheffield Midland, NPR, tram train extensions are all predicated by the plans for HS2 (or the slow speed equivalent which is what it really is on the spur) happening. It just means we can’t plan anything even in the relatively near future and also makes funding the renewal of the existing tram system even more problematic. Dogs dinner on a grand scale.
Where's it stated the project is not going past Birmingham ? the link above is the opinion of a journalist writing in the Guardian.
I looked, couldn’t find an official “it’s cancelled” statement. Just an update by the “Infrastructure Projects Authority” who have marked it as “Red”
The red rating means: “Successful delivery of the project appears to be unachievable. There are major issues with project definition, schedule, budget, quality and/or benefits delivery, which at this stage do not appear to be manageable or resolvable. The project may need re-scoping and/or its overall viability reassessed.”
So is it fake news or not? Our local loop and woods will be significantly impacted by the hs2 running near Swynnerton near Stoke.
It's going to Manchester. HS2 are currently submitting the Hybrid Bill for Stage 2B.
I looked, couldn’t find an official “it’s cancelled” statement. Just an update by the “Infrastructure Projects Authority” who have marked it as “Red”
Yeah, the article is a bit misleading, it IS just an opinion column. Politically, cancelling it to Manchester would be a disaster and as @coconut says, the Hybrid Bill is going through Parliament anyway.
Cancelling the eastern leg up to Sheffield and Leeds is probably a bit easier politically although still a disaster for the overall project. I can see it being kicked into the long grass though in some sort of "well we're not cancelling it but we're not building it yet" statement.
Boris Johnson has got himself into a bit of a pickle over this. He promised ages ago that HS2 would be built in full (not that a BJ promise is worth anything) and he's promised a great levelling-up agenda, albeit in a speech that was utterly incomprehensible and widely ridiculed. So cancelling part of HS2 wouldn't look great although again, he's rarely worried himself about stuff like that, he just says whatever comes to mind at the time.
They can cancel the East Midlands bit, will destroy our local off road riding. There's a trail runs through what will be the Toton hub.
More seriously, I get the need to increase rail capacity and usage. I'm just not sure £106bn couldn't have been better spent to do that. Maybe a billion put to one side for cycle infrastructure, is it £10 billion for road repairs, pretty sure £95bn would have done a lot of rail infrastructure and levelling up....
They can cancel the East Midlands bit, will destroy our local off road riding. There’s a trail runs through what will be the Toton hub.
Toton yard is being cleared now to make way for the redevelopment for HS2. There are still some things not quite planned for the area, so an estimate is that it will be 10 years before it gets there. I know someone working on the planning side for it.
That article is rubbish. There may, eventually, be no dedicated line north of Brum, but there are lots of other works happening that will enable fast running north of Brum. Crewe Station plans are well advanced now, the current thoughts are a fast, new line to Crewe, then upgraded current lines for the last 30 miles to Manchester.
The East Mids section is undergoing review as to the best options.HS2 may not be the best option, so current lines may be the best option.
the link above is the opinion of a journalist writing in the Guardian
its worth watching the Channel 4 Dispatches documentary on HS2. They interviewed a lot of rail industry experts and not one of them believed the Birmingham to Manchester stretch would ever be built. So if thats an opinion, it seems to be a fairly unanimous one
Crazy-legs, you're well informed on this, I'm guessing you're DfT and high speed rail group?
At the end of the day do you want a modern rail network or not, and that doesn't mean just fiddling round the edges. You have to have a basic spine that's fit for purpose now and in the future. If you don't then you accept extra road traffic is necessary. Also you need to accept that any sort of levelling up, from Boris Johnson or anyone else, just got a lot more difficult/unliklely.
I want a modern rail network, HS2 is not it.
Levelling up would have been good but HS2 was designed to bring more money to London.
Improving transport links between cities other than London would be levelling up. Having decent units going between places other than London would be levelling up.
Levelling up would have been good but HS2 was designed to bring more money to London.
HS2 is designed as a Birmingham centric project, always was. HS2 are based in Snow Hill Birmingham and view the project as a city interconnection project, with Birmingham at it's heart. The original plan was to link Leeds, Crewe, Liverpool, Sheffield, London and Manchester all via Birmingham. So why start with London to Birmingham then ? simple it was always the most expensive and complex section of the line, it's also the section which would carry the highest passenger numbers. Euston to West Ruislip has the most compelex twin bore section of tunnelling and vent shaft constructions.
Leeds to Manchester via BHM? yep fabulous idea that.
HS2 is designed as a Birmingham centric project, always was. HS2 are based in Snow Hill Birmingham and view the project as a city interconnection project, with Birmingham at it’s heart.
This^^.
Plus it puts Birmingham Airport within 45 minutes of London which is about the same as Stansted and Luton so it eases congestion around the London Airports if you can shift some of it up to Birmingham.
Which in turn puts places like Manchester, Sheffield, York, Leeds closer to an airport with a greater selection of connections therefore avoiding travel to London.
Quite how much Covid and Brexit combined (along with what will have to be some pretty stringent Decarbonisation targets) have scuppered all that international connectivity remains to be seen...
Leeds to Manchester via BHM? yep fabulous idea that.
No, you'd go via the E-W linkage of Northern Powerhouse Rail which is designed to tie into HS2 at each side (Manchester and Leeds).
No, you’d go via the E-W linkage of Northern Powerhouse Rail which is designed to tie into HS2 at each side (Manchester and Leeds).
Should have started with that if it truly was conceived as a city interconnection project.
Has this section even had the go-ahead?
Has this section even had the go-ahead?
None of NPR has had the go-ahead.
The IRP was supposed to be published in February 2021 (and even that was delayed due to Covid) and off the back of that, Transport for the North was then due to publish it's Strategic Outline Case for NPR.
The routes are basically sorted, there were various options of "least worst", "cheapest viable" and "best" all with various parameters mapped out.
DfT then said that, seeing as the IRP is delayed, hold off the publication of the SOC which was agreed. So the whole NPR programme is sort of in limbo (although there's been a lot of further work on surveys, route optimisation and so on but certainly no planning permission given).
The business case for NPR depends on delivery of HS2 in full since some of the track is shared plus the link-ups at Leeds and Manchester are critical.
Leeds to Manchester at the moment is about an hour on TransPennine Express albeit that you have to use the nightmare platforms 16 at Leeds and 13/14 at Manchester Piccadilly. Since 13/14 are the only through platforms at Piccadilly, all the freight goes through there too so any delays just get exported around the North from there.
https://transportforthenorth.com/northern-powerhouse-rail/
On a related note, there were well-advanced plans for 2 additional platforms at Piccadilly which were shelved by that idiot Chris Grayling. Maybe he didn't realise that in order to run trains, it's helpful for them to have platforms to stop at. Was supposed to be part of the Castlefield Corridor improvements - in the end they built the Corridor for improved services but then didn't add the two platforms to accommodate them so effectively they made the bottleneck worse. Classic British engineering exceptionalism, do half a job.
HS2 has been upgraded to Microsoft Teams....
Cheaper faster and better for the environment.
So why start with London to Birmingham then ? simple it was always the most expensive and complex section of the line,
Hmm, only the bits through Birmingham and London, the majority of it is just countryside.
For me from the outset they should aimed for 150mph and 4 tracks with the standard inner fast outer slow approach to get the increased capacity and fast running. That way it wouldn't need full-on concrete base for the entire distance, along with everything else specced for very-high speed, AND over twice the capacity (slower running means more trains on any given stretch of line.
Hmm, only the bits through Birmingham and London, the majority of it is just countryside.
Kind of sums up the attitude of those in favour of this despicable project really.
Just something inconsequential and irritating in the way of ploughing on with the money making.
Most of the talk in this thread is concerned with the economics, and little with the massive destruction of green spaces that unfortunately I am witnessing all around me on my doorstep.
There was an event near me yesterday actually, marking the felling of a beautiful and historic tree with a blue plaque. The tree wasn't near the actual line, just on land they had 'acquired' and so was clear cut and decimated like every other bit of land they acquire.
It's quite telling that every single compound you see around near me is packed with menacing looking security guards in black helmets guarding against and ready to bring down anyone who gives a shit about the indiscriminate destruction they have at their hands.
You folks up north. If it does indeed come your way, I'd get out now and drink in your beautiful surroundings because I promise you, they're not going to be there much longer.
Devastating.
Dont know if its been mentioned in the past 5 pages, but my understanding is a huge portion of the cost is land purchase. Not purchase of the alignment itself, but in many of places the track splits farms in half.
The Economics of farming are already squeezed to breaking point so plenty of land owners have been bought out wholesale, as the farm becomes entirely unworkable when its chopped in half by an impassable barrier. Presumably those plot of land will be sold off to the neighboring farms on respective sides of the alignment, but i doubt they'll see much money back from it.
Why the focus on airports in many pro-HS2 postings? We need to fly a lot less, not improve access to airports, so why make it easier? Sustainable transport needs to be about linking communities and get away from the emphasis being on designing everything for helping big business. Business needs to travel less; as many have said, Teams is a more effective transport solution. But then, our whole way of life in the west isn't even slightly sustainable anyway and is heading for a very nasty end.....
Since 13/14 are the only through platforms at Piccadilly, all the freight goes through there too so any delays just get exported around the North from there.
I'm pretty sure that people must have died of exposure during the winter on those god-forsaken platforms, waiting for trains that never arrive. They're like a special circle of hell.
On a related note, there were well-advanced plans for 2 additional platforms at Piccadilly which were shelved by that idiot Chris Grayling. Maybe he didn’t realise that in order to run trains, it’s helpful for them to have platforms to stop at.
Those 2 additional platforms would probably have been about 1000 times more effective at improving transport links than HS2 will ever be. But our politicians must have their vanity projects
Why the focus on airports in many pro-HS2 postings?
Because rail takes 20+ years to come to fruition - the original business plan for HS2 was done back in the 90's and it's been bounced around in various guises ever since. Back in the 90's, that was how business was done.
This isn't a problem unique to rail - basically everything in the public domain is 20 years out of date. Defence is the other classic - you're procuring for next-generation fighter aircraft in the 90's for something that will come into service in 2020 so by the time it comes into service, everything it was specced with when the designs were done in 2000 is 20 years old.
Transport is a bit more open, especially rail. Building and investing in rail is generally a good thing since it has the potential to remove vehicles from the roads - even if the original goal is no longer serving airports for business travellers, it's still got a purpose.
It’s quite telling that every single compound you see around near me is packed with menacing looking security guards in black helmets guarding against and ready to bring down anyone who gives a shit about the indiscriminate destruction they have at their hands
There is a bore shaft compound like that behind my parents house, which was high quality green belt land. It is now a massive industrial complex with supporting hard surface roads, buildings, fencing, 24hr lights, vehicle movements and noise. Its all okay though as HS2 have planted wildflowers on some of the surrounding land...
^^ I know it's not in a same ballpark but there was a significant amount of work done on a canal near mine which involved moving a lot of heavy machinery into a neighbouring park, removing a load of vegetation and trees nearby, putting in a hardstanding road for access and then fencing it all off.
Looked terrible, especially in the middle of a lovely park. A year later, you can't really tell anything was ever done.
At the end of the day do you want a modern rail network or not, and that doesn’t mean just fiddling round the edges.
HS2 and a modern rail network are not mutually exclusive. From a long distance perspective rail travel is unaffordable to the vast majority of people. It's even more unaffordable if you're trying to move a group of adults around.
Invest the money in re-opening some of the lines closed by Beeching where the roads are completely saturated; rip out the antiquated signalling infrastructure where men in wooden boxes push levers around; get rid of diesel and invest in battery trains and megawatt charging while the train is in the station.
It's cheaper for me to lease a Tesla than it is to commute to work by train, and I can do it off-peak.
