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Look at it this way, the longest direct Tube journey is Epping to West Ruislip, (55km) and it's only a bit longer than the distance from Leeds and Manchester.
Imagine hopping on a tube network that big that included Leeds Manchester, Sheffield with 200+ stations...
I appreciate the ire here but making places closer to London allows money to flow out of London, not in.
nope - it causes money and jobs to go to London!
nope – it causes money and jobs to go to London!
Other than all the jobs that are created when a town expands as it is now a desirable commuter location, you know shops, restaurants, builders, garages etc. And that’s before people in London think why should I pay the London tax when someone in the midlands or north is now more easy to get to than some areas of London.
nope – it causes money and jobs to go to London!
Well yes but it's a bit of a circular argument. London is far and away the wealthiest, best connected city in the UK so there are more / better job opportunities there however it's also stratospherically expensive and many opportunities are therefore lost to the people who can't afford to live there so you end up creating a self-perpetuating wealth spiral.
You can argue that it shouldn't be that way, other areas should have had more support etc and that's sort of true but looking back and saying "we could have done x or we should have done y" isn't really going to help any of the northern cities now; besides which it's been that way since Roman times with occasional short-lived exceptions of some of the eastern coastline towns.
So you could provide "levelling up" opportunities for individual cities via grants, development funds and so on but that's still pouring money down the drain if there's no way to get the people and products to and from said northern city (or the only way to do so is via slow, inefficient transport).
Public transport is the single greatest "levelling up" option available. It instantly gives opportunities to people who might not be able to afford to live there full time but could commute in - very similar to schemes like CrossRail which has (or soon will) open up huge chunks of west and east London to fast services directly into the centre of town. It also opens up capacity elsewhere. CrossRail will alleviate all the pressure on the Central Line which can then take all the more local traffic that doesn't necessarily need to go into town. Same for HS2 - it would have taken the majority of the fast stuff that currently goes up and down WC and EC Main Lines and allowed them to run more regional services and more freight.
It's only by having reliable connections to move people and products around that you can develop trade. Just stupidly short-sighted from the Government (plus the standard ineptitude that usually comes with large-scale infra projects in this country). There's the spiralling cost of doing it but the much more hidden and pervasive costs of NOT doing it.
Imagine hopping on a tube network that big that included Leeds Manchester, Sheffield with 200+ stations…
Yes. Equivalent spending in the North. It shouldn't be about getting to London it should be about connecting northern cities.
Trains to and from London are X10 better than the east to west services. How about we level up these before we improve the London services?
. London is far and away the wealthiest, best connected city in the UK....very similar to schemes like CrossRail which has (or soon will) open up huge chunks of west and east London to fast services directly into the centre of town. It also opens up capacity elsewhere. CrossRail will
So the wealthiest best connected city has crossrail and HS2 and everywhere else gets sweet f.a.
Best to ignore London for a while and spend all the money elsewhere. Surely towns and cities can hope for more than being a London commuter town?
Proper interconnection between Leeds/Bradford/Manchester creates something closer to a single entity in economic terms, at which point it can start to attract investment on that basis, rather than being a single smaller city.
Megacity North (!) would be a bit more of a rival to Greater London, and with that comes more influence politically.
Crossrail isn't just for London. It should mean it's no longer a massive ballache to get from anywhere in the West of England to anywhere in the East of England. At least I'm hoping so.
So the wealthiest best connected city has crossrail and HS2
HS2 has got two ends!
London is far and away the wealthiest, best connected city in the UK
There isn’t much competition. I’ve always been amazed by the way people down there don’t think about public transport because its just there. There is none of the normal having to leave somewhere by a certain time because the buses stop running (Round here we call that time Friday).
I can understand ‘London weighting’ on public sector jobs but its the additional funding on public services there on top of that that really riles. Its not a north south thing its a London & everyone else thing
HS2 has 2 ends and one is definitely in London where is the other?
What I'm saying is let's have some transport plans that don't include London.
“Look at it this way, the longest direct Tube journey is Epping to West Ruislip, (55km) and it’s only a bit longer than the distance from Leeds and Manchester.“
This is correct - but the journey time is 85 minutes.
By contrast Leeds to Manchester by train takes 45 to 65 minutes so the North is better served than some routes in the South.
Crossrail isn’t just for London. It should mean it’s no longer a massive ballache to get from anywhere in the West of England to anywhere in the East of England
Try travelling east to west by rail in the north.
If you’ve a spare day to write off.
You’ll need it
nope – it causes money and jobs to go to London!
Another TJ fact, but I don't think it's true.
There are lots of businesses in London already. There are lots of people who want to start businesses elsewhere, where they live, where they went to uni, where their families are, where there's countryside, and where everything's cheaper. If they start businesses elsewhere, they struggle to get work from the companies that are already in London because those London based people don't want to travel all the way out to see them, cos it takes too long. This was a constant problem for friends of mine who set up a digital agency in Cardiff. Prospective customers would say 'well come and see you in your London office' then when told there wasn't a London office they'd put the phone down.
If you set up shop in Birmingham and it's only going to take 50 mins to get out from London, or into London for meetings, it's going to help your Birmingham based business. Now, if your Birmingham based business (and loads of others) grow, then that is going to draw work in from other places e.g. Manchester, Leeds etc - provided the transport network is there.
So we clearly will all benefit from a good high speed rail network, but there's nothing wrong with it starting in London, because that's where the work and business is now. But of course it needs to result in a full network, doing a half-arsed job like the current govt is doing doesn't help much.
By contrast Leeds to Manchester by train takes 45 to 65 minutes so the North is better served than some routes in the South.
Competing with Kerley on the Starmer thread for idiotic comment of the week award 🙄
What I’m saying is let’s have some transport plans that don’t include London
Like between Bradford, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester? I'll take that!
What do you mean that's exactly what's been axed?
It is true Molgrips - check the research. Its been done for HS2 and shows that it will cause money to flow into London = and crossrail is a london only scheme - makes sod all difference to anyone outside london
and crossrail is a london only scheme – makes sod all difference to anyone outside london
No, makes a big difference to me and anyone else who needs to cross London. Which is a lot of people given the way that the network is laid out.
so only of benefit to people in London then? What benefit is crossrail to me?
You're absolutely right TJ. It's not all about you.
so only of benefit to people in London then? What benefit is crossrail to me?
What benefit is Edinburgh Tram to me?
That's one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. Should everything done in the country benefit you personally?
TJ, I'm skimming the report now. I notice that the number in the link you posted - more benefits going to London than elsewhere - might be derived from this bit:
It is made clear in the DfT’s economic
case for HS2 that more of the benefits
of the scheme will accrue to London
than any other part of the country. The
most recent assessment finds that 40%
of the transport user benefits of the full
network will go to London, with other
regions lagging behind: the north-west
receives 18% of these benefits, the West
Midlands 12%, and Yorkshire and the
Humber 10%.80
I'm not sure you can conclude from that that money is going to be flowing into London.
Correct - thats money flowing from the rest of the country into london - very simple and clear same as crossrail only benefits london. Westminster tried to get crossrail put thru as UK strategic spending so that they did not have to give the devolved governments the barnett consequentials for this spending - eventually they had to agree it was not UK strategic spending as its only benefits are in london.
so only of benefit to people in London then?
Mate, people need to cross London when they travel TO it! The stations in London are around the edge, they all terminate in a ring around the central area. This means that if you need to get from Cardiff to say, Canary Wharf, it takes about half as long to do the last 10 miles as it does the previous 140 miles. This could be slashed by Crossrail, making other parts of London more accessible.
It sounds like you haven't got a lot of experience of business travel and what it means for businesses.
Correct – thats money flowing from the rest of the country into london
No, economics isn't a zero sum game. London benefits 40% and the rest of the UK er 60%. Which is more.. but they all get MORE than before it was built!
What benefit is Edinburgh Tram to me?
That’s one of the worst arguments I’ve ever heard. Should everything done in the country benefit you personally?
thats precisely my point. Crossrail only benefits london. Same as the edinburgh trams.
to claim crossrail has benefits for rthwe wider country is bogus.
Same as the edinburgh trams.
I've benefitted from the Edinburgh Trams, as did the companies that wanted to see me. And I don't even live there!
Yes molgrips - thats benefiting only people in London and what yo give there is an example of why HS2 will suck even more money out of the rest of the UK ( i know you are talking about crossrail)
what yo give there is an example of why HS2 will suck even more money out of the rest of the UK
It really doens't work like that.
If I give you £10, and Bill £20, have you lost £10?
Crossrail's mega benefit is for those commuting from Thames Valley to City of London and Canary Wharf (Farringdon, Liverpool St, Canary Wharf on the map below). There are of course ancillary benefits such as those coming in from further west on GWR who otherwise have the hassle of getting from Paddington. Heathrow already has an Express but also benefits from wider connectivity via Crossrail which makes sense.
Those to the north, south and east of London are already well connected to the City of London (or for north / south don't really benefit from Crossrail).
Megacity North (!) would be a bit more of a rival to Greater London, and with that comes more influence politically.
‘Megacity North’ 🙂
That latter part of your comment. I see why things might (continue to) go slowly.
Molgrips - If you have £30 to spend on transport and spend £29 of it in london for the benefits of londoners then yes the rest of the country has been cheated
Molgrips – If you have £30 to spend on transport and spend £29 of it in london for the benefits of londoners then yes the rest of the country has been cheated
But what I'm saying is that it's not just the benefit of Londoners. That's the flaw in your argument. But you know what, never mind.
tjagain
Full Member
Molgrips – If you have £30 to spend on transport and spend £29 of it in london for the benefits of londoners then yes the rest of the country has been cheated
If you have £96B to spend and you build a line to some place no Londoner wants to go who's being cheated?
Bring on Crossrail 2, the Bakerloo extension, sleeper trains to Europe or lower fares in London. They're all happening, right?
the problem is Molgrips that this is entirely about benefit to londoners. every bit of analysis says so
Please tell me what benefits this brings to those of us north of birminham?
You two seem to be arguing about semantics.
It benefits people in London, doesn't matter if you're Scottish and traveling from Wales to France, you're going through London and it's benefiting you.
This doesn't benefit any Londoners that are trying to get from Manchester to Leeds.
As for the Cardiff example, that's still benefiting London because it lets people stay there's and make everything revolve around them.
What if Cardiff wanted to do business with Newcastle? How is crossrail or HS1.35 going to benefit them? It'll still be a day's travel.
I think the argument molgrips is trying to make is having more people in London able to move around by train means they won't be clogging up Northern Rail lines instead. ie the North benefits (by having less people...) as some gravitate to London.
Anyway, according to the latest IRP, it will be going to Manchester!
Not a chance it ever gets north of Birmingham - thats been obvious right from the start.
This means that if you need to get from Cardiff to say, Canary Wharf, it takes about half as long to do the last 10 miles as it does the previous 140 miles. This could be slashed by Crossrail, making other parts of London more accessible.
Yes Crossrail benefits London, makes travel easier in London, means people like you can travel more easily around London. This is levelling up London.
Its the rest of the country that needs levelling up!
Its the rest of the country that needs levelling up!
Very true, but HS2 was never really going to be the answer, much better putting all that money into properly upgrading tracks and rolling stock for the northern regions, and other regions as well, like the southwest - shaving off a half hour or so for well-off London business types shouldn’t come at the cost of massive environmental damage and no advantage to anyone unable to take advantage of the line, because it goes hammering through the local stations without stopping.
‘Upgrading tracks’ means worse service for years while they are ongoing, and then competing demands on lines (commuters/freight/intercity) resulting in continued fragile easily disturbed and delayed service… ie it can push people and goods onto the road, short term and medium term… and doesn’t build the network for the long term. New lines do so so much more. It’s only living in our inwards looking country, where we were lucky to inherit the network we have, that blinds us to the fact the new lines are essential, we paint them as vanity projects while our competitor regions in other countries crack on and install the infrastructure needed for this century of decarbonisation and changing economics.
In England, the economic divide between north and south is greater than the economic divide between east and west in Germany at unification. This won’t be fixed by deciding to reserve new line investment for London and its ever expanding commuter belts. We need new lines connecting up the cities of the North of England, and as a result of that, improved local services on existing lines. Need, not want. It’s the minimum needed. The cancelled HS2 and NPR lines up here were to be at least the start of building that network, and rescuing the regions up here… now it’s stalled completely for at least another 10 years. There is now bugger all chance of rail supporting moving freight and commuters onto electrified rail transit now… all our eggs are in electric vehicles and road widening now. Good luck with that…
‘Upgrading tracks’ means worse service for years while they are ongoing,
this keeps on being said but Edinburgh / Glasgow main line was upgraded and electrified while still carrying the usual services pretty much.
Also on the idea that HS2 increases capacity - yes by the number of fast passengwer trains on it but if you are running high speed passenger trains you cannot put freight or stopping trains on the smae line can you - so the only extra capacity is those few high speed passenger trains
another normal line would be able to run freight as well
“few high speed trains” - you have no idea what the demands are for getting between cities down here, try getting a low stopping service here between Manchester and Leeds, or York and Sheffield, or Liverpool and Bradford. Try driving those routes as well. We need more connectivity, or accept that economically England is to be just London and its satellites, and keep getting left behind. Anyway, the existing lines could run more freight and local services if they were no longer also the main intercity lines.
Who are all these people that need to get to Manchester from Leeds and vice versa all the time? They should’ve chosen the right city to live in in the first place.
Anyway, the existing lines could run more freight and local services if they were no longer also the main intercity lines.
so no more intercity trains in total then? the claims just do not add up for me.
How many trains a day on the high speed london to Birmingham line? those appear to be the only extra capacity created.
I agree with you that this money should have been spent elsewhere where far greater good could be done for the money
Who are all these people that need to get to Manchester from Leeds and vice versa all the time? They should’ve chosen the right city to live in in the first place.
All these people shuffling around the South East of England every day. With their new lines. And more to come. They shouldn’t have chosen the right area to live in in the first place.
Burn your car jambourgie… see how well you’ve chosen the right exact spot to site yourself in relation to anyone you need to deal with, and to do everything you need or want to do.
so no more intercity trains in total then?
You’ve lost me there. You don’t think dedicated extra lines would result in extra intercity trains? That’s the only thing a lot of people do understand! New lines would carry more passengers between the hubs (as it happens, quicker, but don’t focus on that) and the older lines could have carry more people (importantly more reliably) on stopping and local services, and carry more freight.
kelvin - I think we are slightly at cross purposes. I am assuming as seems more than likely this is going to stop at birmingham. even if it does go to manchester its not going to connect the northern cities