[Closed] Howies co-founder quits, but why?

His canoe sank on the way to work.

Why would anyone care what a trouser salesman has to say?

presumably a fall out with Timberland who now own/ part own the brand

Er, this sort of thing isn't unusual. The pattern is usuaully something like:

Business is founded and grows.

Only way to realise value from business, and get it to the next stage, is a trade sale or VC investment.

Trade sale/VC investment means founder loses control of his baby.

Brand is no longer his "own".

He quits.

I'm guessing its a fake 'Im now going to set up a new brand based on my fake ethics-bollox and charge you £100 for hemp-faux trousers made in China but eco-loving crap'.

Watch this space. Its part of the guerilla-marketing.

'Take your customers with you on a new adventure'.

Probably just got fed up having someone to answer to. Once you are your own boss do you really want to work for somebody else doing the same job?

I should expect he will be back with another clothing company before long. Hopefully their clothes will be a little cheaper.

grievoustim and Ourmaninthenorth have it.

I had two interviews with Howies a couple of years ago. Personally I found David a bit unfriendly and communications with them a bit chaotic. To be fair I think he was just very passionate and very single-minded about his vision. The deal with Timberland probably limited his ability to do this...

...but added to his bank balance nicely 🙂

As above, time for a new BS brand I reckon - probably claiming power to the people and other anti-corporate stuff to hook in a new group of buyers who fall for it 😉

As above, time for a new BS brand I reckon - probably claiming power to the people and other anti-corporate stuff to hook in a new group of buyers who fall for it

Exactly. Probably had a restrictive covenant in the contract 'can not start a business that would be classed as a competitor within x amount of time'. times now expired and hes off to start something new- always the way in business. Watch the people who like the 'power to the people' sheep-following. They'll see something else to buy and show totheir friends.

[i]Hopefully their clothes will be a little [s]cheaper[/s] better[/i]

KINGTUT - Member
His canoe sank on the way to work.

POSTED 16 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

*s*****

i have two howies merino tops and they are ace. i agree the are pricey but they are good quality. T shirt line went downhill a long time ago though.

T shirt line went downhill a long time ago though.

R. Ubbish.

I have two Icebreaker merino tops- one is 10yrs old, the other about 5. Whats your point baw jaws?! Basics should last especially if they are ridiculously overpriced.

From the link written by the remaining Howies bods:

So David for every t-shirt you packed, every box you shifted, every bill you paid, every word you wrote, every wrist you slapped, every layout you changed, every back you patted, every product you complained about, every person you inspired, you should feel so darn proud.

Sounds a bit condescending i think. Hard feelings maybe?

my point was the howies merino tops are pricey but I think they are good quality. thought that was implicit?

baw jaws- no offence meant. I just dont get why people like Howies. Its conflicting at best.

He tweet'd last week:
"If you sell out and go corporate, you should have the decency to shut up about it whilst pocketing the cash."
"When other people own your dream, you'd better get another one to sell on"

Yeah, guessing it must be issues with Timberland. It never really made sense in terms of brand ethos (eco-friendy, anit-corporate, etc..) to accept investment from a huge corporation. Surely it went against everything they stood for? I do like some of their stuff and vaguely agree with their principles but wish they could do it in a less pretentious, "look how cool we are" way. Also wish it wasn't so ridiculously overpriced!

The brand ethos was to make money by dressing it up in a faux-ethical message (admittedly backed up to a reasonable extent but I'm confident that the driver was the image rather than the ethics). Just look at the founders' background and tell me that's not right 🙂

I saw an interview with him and his wife back last year sometime I think. It seemed a very double edged interview in that they were saying 'Timberland is great' but it was also combined with an awful lot of 'how do you keep total control of a business you sold to another owner'. I am not surprised if they have quit, as the sulky rebellion was already in writing, so it was just a matter of time. Basic issue very much seemed to be wanting the money and the control - but you only get to pick one in this sort of situation I would think.

Wales has millions of sheep. Why use NZ sheep and send the wool to China and back to Carnaby Street in the name of Mother Earth?

Utter Hogwash.

hora - sorry, re-read my post and I sounded like a w@nk 🙁

I dont subscribe to the whole howies thing, but I dont think its fair that they get a bashing every time. there are loads of clothing manufacturers out there who sell overpriced sh!t but these guys market themselves (rightly or wrongly) as wearing their heart on their sleeve and being passionate about what they do. some folk will buy into it, some wont. It does come across a bit w@nky to me but good luck to them.

I saw an interview with him and his wife back last year sometime I think. It seemed a very double edged interview in that they were saying 'Timberland is great' but it was also combined with an awful lot of 'how do you keep total control of a business you sold to another owner'. I am not surprised if they have quit, as the sulky rebellion was already in writing, so it was just a matter of time. Basic issue very much seemed to be wanting the money and the control - but you only get to pick one in this sort of situation I would think.

Sadly I've been around the block a fair few many times in life soo far.

I read it as a business deal was done. The old owner (somewhat of a keyman in the brand agreed to be kept on for a specified period) until the transition is safe enough that the established customer base doesnt leave. Restrictive contract conveyance preventing old owner setting up a rival brand for a certain period expires and marketing-savvy old owner sends out vibes that are easy to be construed by established customer base. Sorry, Im really cynical but business is business.

Scruff - something I recall from a drunken conversation about merino. (Yes that does make me sound a little odd, must be the Welsh blood) Is - these fancy dan merino sheep can only thrive in NZ. So breeding them over here isn't viable but I could be wrong. Any sheep breeders out there?

Re the ts I've had similar probs. Used to rave about them but recent purchases have left me a little disappointed on the quality. And the Sundown jacket I bought, I got a hole in the pocket in less than a week. But as it was a sale item couldn't be bothered complaining.

There are lots of buisinesses that try to sell on the "we're your friends" schtick - ST is a glaring example. Do not forget that people are in business to make money, and if they do so from a certain set of principles, then that's better than not having them, but just because Howies - like ST, or Innocent, or a host of others - market themselves in a chummy way, doesn't mean that they are not in it to make money.

I have no problem with the Howies marketing approach; it doesn't irk me, and neither does it ensnare me. I don't object to people running businesses on ethical lines - surely it is better than not doing so? And no-one is perfect - we can pick holes in everything. Everything is a compromise. But I would rather have the option of having ethically sourced merinos than no option at all.

Timberland, though undoubtedly a large business, does have an ethical streak to it (they are quite proud of the CSR work they do, and require their employees to take part in the same), and rather more so than most other clothing businesses. That's why the Hieatts were apparently happy to sell to Timberland.

It is not unusual for the sale of a business of this type (i.e. built from scratch by the then owners) to have, as part of the deal, a significant transitionary period, whereby the original owners are retained - effectively as consultants - to manage this transion with the new owners. It is cost effective for the new owners to pay handsomely for this, while still spending an awful lot less than they would do on change management consultants.

And, of course there would have been restrictive covenants. That's normal practice in any transaction. Most are unenforceable, but that doesn't make any difference.

Hieatt will find it hard to let go, but he has shown entrepreneurial spirit once, and so will likely do something again. Whether his next business projects bring in new consumers, or take from Howies, will entirely depend on what he does. My suspicion is that he won't go into the clothing business in a big way, but will probably pursue something else.

That fact that you're all talking about this means that Howies has had a certain amount of impact... Is that a little bit of jealousy in there too?

Good luck to him and his next venture, whatever it is.

That fact that you're all talking about this means that Howies has had a certain amount of impact.

So does Coca Cola and McDonalds. Doesnt mean you will buy their products.

Is it possible to run out of clichés?

Made you post though
ooops and me

So does Coca Cola and McDonalds. Doesnt mean you will buy their products.

That's gotta be one of the pooerst compariosons I've ever read......... 😐

Damn straight!
Pepsi and Burger King then 🙂

Howies are a classic case of eco-greenwashing to make people "feel better" about their rampant consumerism.

Chimptastic - I asked the same thing on a fram trip in the Borders (I was there with the kids, honest 😉 Got a similar answer that Merino weren't suitable to the UK though can't remember why. It might have been something to do with the very low value of wool (even if it is Merino) but can't really remember.

Lovely helpful lass at the farm tho' - Cream o'Galloway (around Dumfies-ish), well worth a visit with the kids 😉

I won't join in with the howies bashing as I feel like it happens on here once every other week or so, and its always the same arguments..

My understanding it that David Hieatt quit for reasons over the Timberland part-ownership. In an interview with the [url= http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/celebrity/article3727422.ece ]Times[/url] he said they still had full creative control, but apparently not enough if he quit!

From his tweets since leaving it sounds like he's moving into denim production, although i thought he couldnt work within fashion for a year. He mentioned seeing a patent lawyer on twitter so perhaps developing a technical fabric?

At any rate his wife still remains at howies so he still has a fairly direct involvement. Someone I know who'd spent time at howies speculated that he planned on being away for a year in order to raise funds to buy howies back...

I for one am very intersted to see what he does next and will no doubt be sucked in and 'along for the adventure!'

Maybe not the best comparison but like those brands they all want to create a feel-good feeling in their punters whilst making more money.

Howies are a classic case of eco-greenwashing to make people "feel better" about their rampant consumerism.

BANG to rights. Personally I dont have a softspot for any brand. I'll buy anything thats good quality and well priced. People who revisit one brand as they feel an affinity need to look at their souls and how deep their convictions really are.

Saying all this I have am a self-confessed Santa Cruz whore.

That fact that you're all talking about this means that Howies has had a certain amount of impact.

If I had heard loads of responses saying how great Howies are now, I might have considered buying their products again but few are and I won't be.

So not very good impact ehh?

Personally I dont have a softspot for any brand. I'll buy anything thats good quality and well priced. People who revisit one brand as they feel an affinity need to look at their souls and how deep their convictions really are.

Saying all this I have am a self-confessed Santa Cruz whore.

You are a genius, hora. 🙂

If you think their clothing is expensive, check the f***ing hotel thingy they've got. Can't find the link, maybe he's going to concentrate on that?

There are lots of buisinesses that try to sell on the "we're your friends" schtick - ST is a glaring example. Do not forget that people are in business to make money, and if they do so from a certain set of principles, then that's better than not having them, but just because Howies - like ST, or Innocent, or a host of others - market themselves in a chummy way, doesn't mean that they are not in it to make money.

I have no problem with the Howies marketing approach; it doesn't irk me, and neither does it ensnare me. I don't object to people running businesses on ethical lines - surely it is better than not doing so? And no-one is perfect - we can pick holes in everything. Everything is a compromise. But I would rather have the option of having ethically sourced merinos than no option at all.

Spot on. I have some Howies stuff, and although some of the "live your dreams"/tree-hugging stuff is too OTT for me a lot of the time there is at least some ethical accountability behind it. It's decent enough stuff (despite some odd T-shirt sizing) so good luck to them.

I'm guessing its a fake 'Im now going to set up a new brand based on my fake ethics-bollox and charge you £100 for hemp-faux trousers made in China but eco-loving crap'.

Watch this space. Its part of the guerilla-marketing.

'Take your customers with you on a new adventure'.

OMG, hora in got it nailed down watertight shocker!

Oh well, howies were cool while they lasted. have to weave my own hemp now 🙄

I've got a Marketing Degree for my sins and ever since everything is bollox 🙁

Its the first legible and sensible thing I think I've ever heard you say hora, well dones!

Cancel my last, it's a campsite and you will pay up to £460 for a weekend. In a tent. Of course, its environmentally friendly so there's no comfort afforded 🙄
****. That.

He He He. This whole thread is making me laugh.

Howies stuff not living up to expectations? Then don't buy anymore.

Worked for me.

and me.

It just irritates when the sh^tty place the world is catches up with something, whether it was well intentioned or not, was good.

I started reading the comments on the guy's final blog post and was actually sick in my mouth a little bit. That said, there are loads of other companies out there with different marketing strategies if all the "we're your mates" claptrap annoys you - the lovely people at [url= http://boingboing.net/2009/10/06/the-criticism-that-r.html ]Ralph Lauren[/url], for example, who try to sue people who make fun of their stupid photoshopped adverts.

"ST is a glaring example" . I think the people from Howies used to work in advert before deciding to make their own company using the green tag. I don't think that's the case of the people from ST tower, decided to make a magasine based on "we are your friends" bla-bla. They were keen to do a bike mag, and the beginning was difficult, need our support and now they are happy the way it works (apart maybe the previous issue).

Howies USED to make decent, not terribly over-priced clothes that fitted. I've still got some.
Then they made expensive rarity-****-poser clothes for city boys who drove 500 miles to play on bikes and hung out at skateparks pretending not to be fund managers. Some of that stuff is still good quality, but because it's priced waay above anything I can afford, I'll never know if it's going to last.
I mean, how much for a scruffy satchel?

IME, Howies folks were always really nice when you spoke to them on the phone, so I bear them no ill will, but I expect that the Hieatts just wanted the equity on their house and their lives back after doing everything for years, and that's why they 'sold out' to Timberland. Good luck to them, they're good at what they do (firstly clothing, and now rinsing the wallets of 'carbon traders') but I won't buy their clothes any more.

They've moved on, and so have I.

"ST is a glaring example" . I think the people from Howies used to work in advert before deciding to make their own company using the green tag.

As far as I am aware, Howies started out as a clothing company first, adopting the "green" thing later. Hardly an endorsement of a cynical advertiser's plot to suck in the unsuspecting masses to buy stuff because "it's green, nam". Good grief, when they started out, the world couldn't have been further from a "let's get eco" desire.

I don't think that's the case of the people from ST tower, decided to make a magasine based on "we are your friends" bla-bla. They were keen to do a bike mag

I don't doubt they were. But the way the magazine is propositioned - which is necessarily part of its marketing - is that it's all-inclusive, matey and we're-all-in-this-together (viz Ferrentino's column).

and the beginning was difficult, need our support and now they are happy the way it works (apart maybe the previous issue).

WTF has how hard a start-up venture is got to do with anything? Loads of businesses start up in back bedrooms. Some grow big, others never make it past the bedroom door.

I am quite sure that the ST lads are happy (to the extent anyone is ever happy with an evolving product), but I think it's somewhat dubious to try to create a distcinction between businesses that follow a similar marketing ethos on the basis of "my prejudices like this one, but not that one".

I once bought an expensive bin-liner from Howies. It was called something like the 10 second jacket. Something to do with how quick you could get it on. But probably also to do with how quickly you'd realise you'd just been had.

In the beginning all the howies kit was pretty good, later on they did good kit mixed in with rubbish kit. Much like the way TNF went. Sold out and started making overpriced tat for fund managers.

i'm involved in an eco friendly, sustainable fashion business and if you're not playing by the book you will get caught out. we have to be careful about everything from the yarn to the dye to the workers rights. we get asked to ship unfinished garments to europe so they can have a button sewn on and then say made in italy.... we won't do it.

eco friendly and sustainable costs more - no way round it. but if you can cut corners, you can massage your margins.

IMHO howies was smoke and mirrors. finisterre seem to be their true heirs. shame they don't make biking things.....

iDave - care to share who your business is? Email is OK, if not happy on the forum.

YGM in 5 mins!

Is this a good time to point out that the bullish, ultimate, hardnosed point of a business is to make money? (Sorry Hora, but this - and I hate to say this - also includes Santa Cruz 😉 )

It's probably also a good time to point out that it's what the company does that brings value, not the fact that it's a money-making company. I mean, if our employers didn't ultimately make money they'd not be requiring our services, would they? And even governments need money-making people to tax, to pay for the services used by money-making people... It's all part of our beautiful rampant consumerist cycle.

Howies could finance arms deals in the middle east or test bottled milk on newborns in Africa, but it doesn't - it makes clothes, and appears to do so whilst concentrating on sustainability. Yes, it fuels our 'rampant consumerism', but isn't it better to fuel our little money-spilling disease with something that does a little less damage and pays fair wages throughout it's production, as opposed to the more disposable consumerism that other companies push for? Howies make no bones about you saving up for their clothes, whereas Top Man would like to see you in a new pair of jeans every Friday night.

I personally also like the fact that they try out innovative kit - it ain't cheap, but the Barrier hoody to me looks like something I'd be wearing a lot during the winter, especially after a dip in the North Sea or a spin where I have to get changed in a carpark afterwards before driving home.

Yeap - I agree that their kit could be a little cheaper and I'd like to see fewer items fail. But companies have ups and downs for various reasons - look at Manitou and Marzocchi - and it'll be interesting to see where both Howies and Dave H go from here. I have a hunch that Dave will still be keeping his finger in the clothing pie and I wouldn't be surprised to see something happening in a years time.

Sorry, iDave - sounds fascinating. My sister is quite involved in projects of that ilk as well - care to share with me too? Again, no worries if not. 🙂

PimpJ, sure, email me, tulga@me.com

Howies make no bones about you saving up for their clothes, whereas Top Man would like to see you in a new pair of jeans every Friday night

Good point this - I spoke to them not long ago to relate the sad tale of my beloved drizzler jacket (ridden in constantly for years) meeting an accident at Aonach Mor, and rather than suggesting a replacement they put me in touch with a firm in the north east of England that could fix it.

Their marketing approach is often nauseating, and some of the lines over the last few years have been a bit puzzling to me (but I'm not a stockbroker after a bit of zeitgeisty cool) but on the whole I'm still a fan of their gear.

Worth pointing out that I only buy clothes when I need them and when I do I expect them to last - I'm not rolling in cash, so its usually the sale for me - their clothes do last and do the job, for me anyway. Think I've only ever sent one thing back, and that was maybe 6 years ago.

People have a lot of strong feelings on Howies, which is a bit weird for something you're not forced to buy.

I've never run my own business, but I can imagine how difficult the balance must be when you need to grow the business because its successful against the feeling that its not yours anymore.

Very surprised to see they make merino products in China. NZ wool, shipped to the land of cheap labour and shocking human rights record.....

someone always pays for cheaper clothing

Personally I've always liked Howies stuff, their T's have imaginative designs, and their jeans are excellent. I've got three pairs of Skomers, because they fit me really well, they are very comfortable and I really like the styling. The fact I got all three pairs for around thirty quid each is a help, but seriously, anyone looked at the price of so-called designer jeans lately? £170 for some anonymous looking denim with rips in and some fancy embroidery on the pocket! Levi's will cost you the same as a pair of Howies. And as for Rapha, well... Cycling gear for rich City expense account types to wear with their fixie for the four hundred yard ride to their local posing spot with all their fakenger mates. £95 for a simple Merino top? Frack Off.

iDave, China does have a very poor human rights record, but you can't tar all factories with the same brush. Like every country there are good and bad factories, but isolation has never helped a country develop and improve human rights and worker standards.

Couldn't help taking a special interest in this thread, everybody is completely entitled to their opinions regarding howies and what we do but a couple of posts run quite close to my heart and day job

If anybody has any questions regarding how we source our products, how we ensure our factories meet our standards and what those standards are please email infoathowiesdotcodotuk. Your email will find it's way to me and i'll be happy to answer any questions.

mcgruff, I know there are some nice shiny factories in china. I also know that auditors get bribed, staff are manipulated and so on. And at the end of the day they do not have rights that we take for granted.

I think that isolation would be a more effective kick in the ass for the Chinese leadership than turning a blind eye.

If you're serious about the ethical side of your business, I can help you shift your merino operations to Mongolia - Buddhist democracy, minimum wages, unions, and the cashmere industry already produce exceptional quality fine knitwear.

You can't apply the one size fits all approach to this problem, it's far too complex to say that all workers in China lack the rights we have. You're ignoring some of the great work that is being done in China right now to improve things for everyday people. I simply can't agree that isolation will improve standards in a country. By choosing which factories to work with based on their approach to their employees sends a powerful message to other factories that employee standards are important.

We have a great system in place to ensure that our factories are providing for their employees and i would be happy to give you that information , but obviously not over an open forum.

mcgruff, sorry mate even if you had an Agent directly employed by you who lives/works closeby to the factory they'll still feed him/her info. Unless your agent has his own key and is allowed free access to all employees at any time.
They'll feed you what you want to hear for your audits. Ever asked them if an order can be produced quicker?

I know great work is being done in China. But you could source from countries where that great work wasn't necessary? A great factory in China is still a great factory in a country with an atrocious human rights record.

All workers in China [b]do[/b] lack the rights we have. Free speech, freedom of association, for a start... there are others... you know this.

Going back to the OP, its pretty common in business for a founder to leave after a takeover, and in my view Howies was no more marketing lead than any other successful businesses. There is competition for your cash and consumers respond to stories not product specification... buy with your heart, the justify the purchase with your head.

mcgruff don't take this the wrong way- are you in your 20's? I know a few people in their 30's/40's who are quite senior in this industry and they know the party line and the flipside. You have a naive or 'US/Corporate PR' viewpoint.

.....they'll also feed the agent hush funds to ensure his reports are what the customer wants to read - great entrepreneurship!

Regardless of which factory you choose, you're still propping up and financing the Chinese government, who can hardly be praised for their attitude to human rights!

hora - as i mentioned previously i can't go into specifics on an open forum, but if you want to contact me at howies then i would be happy to give you details on how we tackle this particular problem. Not all audits are done the same way.

idave - it sounds like we both want the same thing but are coming at from different directions, by being in China we're trying to initiate the change needed through working practises and giving rights to those workers. If every company pulled out of China right now you would only hurt the workers, the Chinese govt would still be sitting in luxury and we wouldn't have any computers to use this forum. I would be really interested to get your thoughts on sourcing through Mongolia.

Happy to discuss Mongolian textile opportunities, I work with three factories there, all with exceptional equipment and ethics. email in profile.

Maybe if every company didn't go to China in the first place, and made it clear why they wouldn't, the changes we all want may have taken place already? Maybe you could try insisting that all your Chinese workers can access facebook, twitter and youtube....... 😉

In the nicest possible way. Ive been around the block a few times. I'm a bit jaded by reports/assurances etc. All the best mate. Hope you dont drop your rose-tinted specs.

Rapha, well... Cycling gear for rich City expense account types to wear with their fixie for the four hundred yard ride to their local posing spot with all their fakenger mates. £95 for a simple Merino top? Frack Off.

the jerseys (with pockets/zips/reflectives/stripes) are expensive but their merino base layers are priced between £45-£55 and often they have an offer on for 3 for £100. so their 'simple merino tops' are actually very good value.

hora, the offer is there for you or anyone else to have more information if you want it. No rose tinted spectacles but a significant number of years spent in textile factories.

mcgruff, this highlights the problem - as soon you choose china, you immediately put a company who have traded on their sustainable and ethical credentials on the defensive. fire fighting when you could be more productive with your Sunday morning...

mcgruff. Do your factories work exclusively/solely making only Howies products?

Every Australian knows that Kiwi merino is superior to any other country's merino because Kiwi sheep are more "loved".

epicyclo - Member
Every Australian knows that Kiwi merino is superior to any other country's merino because Kiwi sheep are more "loved".

Stepping away from the howies thing a bit, but...
I can't see how isolating a country and it's people brings any benefit. It is by trading with a nation that the people see outside influence.

the00, which would work better..

change regime/ethics and [i]then[/i] we'll start to do business

or, we'll do business with you anyway and then maybe see if you can change a bit, or we [i]might[/i] not do business with you any more, which would cost us a lot in lost expenditure......

the west is soft on china because it suits big business and that suits govt