[Closed] How high do you think fuel prices will have to reach before...

If they put up fuel duty in the budget perhaps.

The government are probably taking a gamble that the negative effect of some angry fat people in tractors will be more than offset when the inner city riots inevitably kick off in the summer. Petrol bombs will be by far beyond the means of the average rioter

Everything's a compromise, but ultimately, on reflection, its worth the gamble.

Haven't they already set expectations by saying fuel is going to be 2 quid a litre shortly?

Here you go. See how many times it's been reported on.
[url] http://business.ukplurk.com/2011/03/soaring-oil-price-could-raise-cost-of.html [/url]

Then when it *only* hits £1.70 or something, there's less chance of everyone kicking off.

How high do you think fuel prices will have to reach before people stop driving so much and realise that oil is finite?

Fuel (for cars and homes) is always going to go up in price, as said above, it's a finite resource. Probably nothing will seriously happen on price until we gat to some sort of major crisis. Until then, drive less, or buy a cheaper car.
Just got to suck it up i'm afraid.

Just a thought. The folk who drive 15mpg range rovers are actually pushing up the price for the rest of us. Ditto the people who drive 40k/year, even if it is for work.

How high do you think fuel prices will have to reach before people stop driving so much and realise that oil is finite?

Thats quite a niave viewpoint. Our whole economy is based around movement to a point.

Our food, clothes and your bike bits.

If it hits £1.70 then we still start to see real problems. Not least as with people driving less there will be less money (a HUGE earner) going into state coffers.

Ontop of this you'll see real issues with social order.

The Government know with the escalation of price the higher their income so they can effectively keep quiet and say 'not our fault- blame the oil companies for rises as we haven't risen the tax'.

Going back to my comment on naivety- public transport costs will also rise soon (have you seen how much bus fares are?! If you are on a low income how do you afford these? Not everyone can cycle to their city centre job in retail or a factory. We don't live in a Eutopia where we are middle-aged men in lycra cycling 20miles each day.

I heard the gov't have some money in the coffers that they are going to use to help aleviate the current highs caused by external market forces.
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It's not so much the price of filling up the motor but the effect it will have on food. My wagon has gone up to £300+ to fill up and all this gets passed down to the customer eventually . At the moment a lot of the hauliers are soaking up the extra costs to stay competitive but very soon the whole lot will be passed on. I know my place has not charged the customer any extra yet but it will at some point not too far away.

Hora I was thinking this just the other day. If the retail price goes up enough then sales will drop dramatically, which would be bad for govt revenue. If they want to maximise revenue they need to CUT duty to keep it within a manageable range.

Purely from a revenue generating viewpoint though - not an environmental one.

How high do you think fuel prices will have to reach before people stop driving so much and realise that oil is finite?

But we don't like being told this, so instead we all prefer to go around with our fingers jammed in our ears shouting "la-la-la-la-la.. I can't hear you.. la-la-la-la-la-la-.."

When you hear anybody say "yes, we must reduce our dependency on cars", what they really mean is "everyone else should reduce their dependency on cars but I'll be damned if I'm going to change my precious little lifestyle" ...

The sanctimonious vegan shoe wearing crowd really make my **** itch sometimes. 🙄

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I'm trying to work out if it's had an effect on car usage already, I'm sure the roads are quieter than usual on my commute at the moment although there don't seem to be hundreds of extra cycle commuters either.

The sanctimonious vegan shoe wearing crowd really make my **** itch sometimes

This will be the same crowd that eats food transported to their area, wears clothes transported to the area, sits in a house warmed by energy transported to the area, shops in vegan shops powered by fuel/energy, holidays etc etc.

They love to live in a self-created arrogance-bubble.

Anyone who doesn't own a car yet crows about 'cars'. Top tip for you- don't breed please. Not because I don't like you (we all have notions of disliking waste) but babies really do consume and perpetuate more consumption of our worlds natural resources.

Anecdotal evidence reported in the press suggests it has had an effect on volumes and speeds...

mansonsoul - Member
How high do you think fuel prices will have to reach before people stop driving so much and realise that oil is finite?

Yeti +1 by the way

There will not be any fuel protests. Its not in the tory parties interest so their friends and fellow travellers won't stir any protests up

Some people have no choice. My company decided to relocate me 45 miles away from home.

My company did this too!! Except it was only 35 miles. They said they'd calculated it'd only take an extra 30 mintues (70mph average!). I had to buy a new car, but the whole thing was a waste of time anyway because i got made redundant a few months later. ****ers.

You have to wonder if they'd have done it if fuel wasn't so cheap though?

Some of my colleagues are of the opinion that high and rising fuel prices are a good thing. We work in the environmental business, and many of us cycle to work, etc.

HOWEVER, although reducing driving and car relaince is a GOOD THING, it needs to be achieved through a series of measures. Fuel cost rises alone will hurt our competitive position and harm our economy. Unilaterally forcing drivers off the road without greener personal or public transport alternatives is just plain stupid.

I have been considering changing car - a new company car would get me into a more CO2 and fuel efficient vehicle (for now - ie by today's standards).

As part of my car needs thinking I have considered electric, especially the about to be launched Nissan Leaf - but it couldn't manage any of my current business trips without running out of juice... and even commuting on a cold day would require me to charge up during the day - using my employer's electricity?... assuming I have a parking space right next to work?

More needed to bring the emerging technologies to the fore before penalising everyone for using technology to which there is no viable alternative.

joao3v16 - yes fuel is finite, so what we ought to do is change our whole economic structure and transportation culture in order to use less, peoples lifestyle is built around jobs and transport to a large degree. So totally transforming our way of life would be a great idea to preserve fuel reserves and keep costs down, except the big boys like china and US will still be guzzling it..... so the fuel will still be depleting and in high demand.... because its an international market.....

so we could just get a grip and look at ways to maintain our status whilst making fuel go further, more efficient cars, a variety of power stations etc etc..... and this is already happening.

I'm interested to see if it has any impact on unemployment. Think about it...

Everyone is feeling this, but I'm guessing most people on here are earning a reasonable salary and can absorb the costs to a certain degree.

But what If you're earning minimum wage? And that provides you with an income that isn't that much higher than being on benefits? But you have to travel to your job, and your travel costs are going up and up and up....?

At what point, do you think **** it! Its not worth it

rkk01 - where would your electricity come from? presume you only use juice from hydro or wind power station? If not the extra fuel required to make and transport a new car that uses electricity from a coal burning power station pretty much negates the point of buying an electric car......

it is running out no proetest will reduce our dependence on a diminishing resource

Thats quite a niave viewpoint. Our whole economy is based around movement to a point.

The sanctimonious vegan shoe wearing crowd really make my **** itch sometimes.

This will be the same crowd that eats food transported to their area, wears clothes transported to the area, sits in a house warmed by energy transported to the area, shops in vegan shops powered by fuel/energy, holidays etc etc.

TandemJeremy - Member
tory parties

Ahh, Tory Parties.

Yes, I never miss the South Wilts Hunt Ball 😉

You're not one of those who think that the last round of fuel protests were orchestrated by Teh Toriezz are you?

Now you aren't being sanctimonious are you Junky? 😉

I imagine you have a self-sufficient veg patch for all your food needs and your internet is powered by carrot-juice then?
🙄 😆

(have you seen how much bus fares are?!

Yep which is why it's a bit of a pisstake when people moan about the cost of driving.

Of course they were organised by the right wing with tacit approval and assistance from teh tory party. I am not hopelessly naive

is there not a ( albeit seemingly not very well ) co-ordinated protest organised for april 1st..?

Maybe the oil companies are just hiking up prices before their world collapses when electric cars finally make it.

And by stealing everyones money they are making sure people can't afford electric cars when they come out.

The last time I hoped on a bus it was almost 4 quid for two of us one-way.

Trust me, I wouldn't mind catching a bus however the thing belches out diesel fumes and the route it takes is circulous. I want to go 2miles into the city centre. Guess what? It goes around the houses first and still ends up in Picadilly - nowhere near the straight line into the city centre.

Ontop of this there is the Tram system. They are investing money into extending the lines into idiot-areas of Manchester yet have done nothing about the two-carriage (wait 20mins at peaktime) service on the existing lines.

The a6 through belper is always busy on a weekend especially a Sunday with people heading into Matlock bath etc, but of late it is definately quieter than it normally is. People, me included just aren't going out for that afternoon jaunt coz it costs so bloody much!!

as I said originally what would you prefer me to do reduce my use or not give a shit ?Does the organ than influences your behaviour least have any thoughts on the issue or do you just want to do petty [but mildly amusing] insults?
Iot is stupid to suggest that there are onlt two ways continue using a resoutrce that will run out or give up all my possesssions. It is just possible that there may be something between those two extreme positions to consider.
My electricty is 100% generated from renewable resources thnaks for caring - you still releiant on depleting resources no wonder you mock me

It goes around the houses first and still ends up in Picadilly - nowhere near the straight line into the city centre

I think the thing that gets me is the 'I'm alright jack, * the rest attitude' displayed by those lucky enough to live close to where they work and are not affected by fuel prices.

I'll be honest... I am alright, I can absorb the fuel increase. It's given me the excuse to buy a road bike so that I can comute every now and again so that I can feel like I'm doing my part... I however recognise that this is not possible, or practical for all.

It just makes a lot of seemingly left wing and liberal people sound very, very tory indeed.

But then... 'I'm alright, so * the rest of you'

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viv - Member
joao3v16 - yes fuel is finite, so what we ought to do is change our whole economic structure and transportation culture in order to use less, peoples lifestyle is built around jobs and transport to a large degree. So totally transforming our way of life would be a great idea to preserve fuel reserves and keep costs down, except the big boys like china and US will still be guzzling it..... so the fuel will still be depleting and in high demand.... because its an international market.....

so we could just get a grip and look at ways to maintain our status whilst making fuel go further, more efficient cars, a variety of power stations etc etc..... and this is already happening.

Getting ahead of the game in terms of restructuring society put us in a better position to compete. China and the US can be slower reacting about it because of their size and power, we need to be ahead of them, not following their leed.

rkk01 - where would your electricity come from? presume you only use juice from hydro or wind power station? If not the extra fuel required to make and transport a new car that uses electricity from a coal burning power station pretty much negates the point of buying an electric car......

Like I said - I work in the environmental sector. We're currently doing quite a bit to support the wind and solar generation industry, as well as traditional fossil fuel and nuclear sectors... I am quite well aware that electricity generation has it's own environmental costs for transport (of raw fuel), infrastructure, generation, transmission etc...

My consideration of an electric vehicle was based purely on the fiscal measures in place to hurt infernal combustion engine drivers...

... and like I said,I can't see that the technology is anywhere near ready for any application other than limited range city runabouts.

I however recognise that this is not possible, or practical for all.

It just makes a lot of seemingly left wing and liberal people sound very, very tory indeed

An element of these didn't do very well at life and fell into a niche which to be honest is slower and lazier.... so rail against the rest. "I couldn't make it so I'll show my resentment in another form/pretend I wasn't interested anyway".

I'll never be able to afford a Porsche 911. Doesn't mean an owner of one is a **** though. They just worked harder at life than me.

The only thing we should discuss is how best to manage this change

Amen!

Were there aliens involved in this conspiracy too TJ? It just looked like some fat blokes with bad haircuts to me

Perhaps we should have sent a squadron of Prescott's to punch them? After all, lefties like him are renowned for their environmental leanings and sympathy for green issues

Not for them, the world of gas guzzling large engined cars.

Oh.... hang on a minute......

I am not hopelessly naive

I think you'll find that's exactly what you are. Sorry

It's great, less cars and they're going slower.

I think the thing that gets me is the 'I'm alright jack, **** the rest attitude' displayed by those lucky enough to live close to where they work and are not affected by fuel prices.

its not always a case of being lucky though is it? In some cases its a choice, just as its a choice to switch your electricity supplier to one thats 100% generated from renewable resources and its a choice buy localy made/grown products etc etc etc

its not always a case of being lucky though is it?

I refer you to Twin.

Its no conspiracy. The previous fuel cost protests were clearly organised and managed by right wing elements with tory party links and were supported by Cameron

to think otherwise is hopelessly naive but as usual its the head in the sand petrol heads tendency on STW bleating hopelessly about this

Energy prices will rise and continue to rise. managing the change in our society that this means should be our priority. its better to get ahead of the game than wait for it to be forced upon us

I'll never be able to afford a Porsche 911. Doesn't mean an owner of one is a **** though. They just worked harder at life than me.

More money != worked harder or more successful

The previous fuel cost protests were clearly organised and managed by right wing elements with tory party links and were supported by Cameron

You've probably got a point to some extent there TJ. EDIT - in that the protests were certainly publicised by elements of the press just to stir up trouble and the idea that Labour were losing control, etc.

Mind you, your patronising view on everyone else who isn't as clever/well informed as you (which seemingly covers pretty much anyone who disagrees with you on anything) explains why a lot of people don't believe or like your views or your behaviour... something to think about maybe...

What about you TSY?

just as its a choice to switch your electricity supplier to one thats 100% generated from renewable resources

There isn't one, is there? And even if there were, we couldn't all switch to it.

But yes - managing change is what's needed. End of.

The issue is though that the Govt is depending on fuel duty as much as we are depending on the fuel. Great - we've slashed fuel usage, hooray - but our income tax has doubled - boo.

Its no conspiracy. The previous fuel cost protests were clearly organised and managed by right wing elements with tory party links and were supported by Cameron

If that's the case, then now that their master plan has reached fruition, they will be calling in the favours and we'll be seeing their Tory friends, now safely in government, will be slashing fuel duty for them.....

Let me know when that happens will you TJ. Then you'll have the proof of your conspiracy. And not before.

[url] http://www.goodenergy.co.uk/ [/url]

It's great, less cars and they're going slower.

Except, that's not true, is it.

People, fundamentally, won't give up their cars. They'll run into debt, they'll steal fuel, they'll put a cocktail of chip-pan oil and Special Brew into their diesels and hope for the best, but there'd have to be a serious price hike for most people to seriously consider alternatives.

Personally, I think part of the problem is the woeful absence of realistic options. Long-distance train routes are viable so long as you're travelling on your own, but to do any sort of short to medium distance is just silly. I idly looked at getting my OH to South Wales via train for a job she was looking at, and to get there for say 9am she'd have to set off at 10pm the night before.

Also, where did all the school buses go? Go anywhere near a school at picking up or dropping off time and you can't move for yummy mummies ferrying little Hermione about in their BMW X5s and Land Cruisers.

Well, it's a bit of a Catch 22 for me... I move jobs every two years or so... I work at a level and in a position that requires me to be within an organisation of a certain size... my age, house prices in the SE, proximity to family and friends dictate that it makes more sense to commute a little further than I'd like to and avoid paying the costs of relocating just to save some fluffy bunnies.

True TJ, but are you personally ahead of the game.

/self-righteous mode/

My electricity bill last year was -1500e, yes, that's a minus sign. Gas bill: zero. Wood bill: 250e, though some of the tools included in the total should last years (all the wood came from gardens). Commuting: on foot. Weekends: on the bike. Skiing: about 6000e (no pockets in shrouds eh!)

thought so

It is true Cougar, the last time fuel went up in France the consumption of fuel went down (by about 10% for the most expensive period) and the number of speed related accidents went down.

S'pose I could just jack it all in, get a job in the local supermarket, sell my car, move into rented accomodation and put myself on the council house waiting list?

That'd help society the best wouldn't it? Be so much better if not only I could cut down on my fuel bill I could cut down on my tax bill too...

Might have to stop buying locally sourced organic food though... christ this middle class dilemma will keep me going all week... will I still be able to buy fair trade coffee?

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/p>

So Yossarian... care to share how you've achieved your carbon neutral utopia?

Also, where did all the school buses go?

Ah yes, this is a goodun.

In Cardiff afaik they give kids the choice of which school to go to. So kids are going to school all over the city. The result is that you'd need hundreds of busses each with only a few kids on. So their parents drive them - so now instead of people popping down the road to work, they are driving all over the city to drop their kids off first, driving much further and for longer than they need to.

just to save some fluffy bunnies

As if this was just about bunnies. I expect better from you tsy!

will I still be able to buy fair trade coffee?

No. I'm afraid Yeti's gone to Iceland 😉

Yeah I guess you could, bit extreme though isn't it?

So Yossarian... care to share how you've achieved your carbon neutral utopia?

lol, getting a little touchy aren't you?

Well, I made the choice to get a job I could cycle to every day, I made the choice to buy a house that scores pretty well on the environmental impact report and to source our electrcity and gas from the greenest suppliers I could find, I made the choice to grow some of our own food and buy as much local stuff as poss etc.

Maybe I was/am lucky to be able to do this - married with 2 little kids by the way

I think there's a big difference between HAVING to do something and justifying your choices to do something, hence my earlier post...

We still go round to Jerry and Margo's for a glass of sherry from time to time.

Binners... I'm going to report your post for swearing... ***land?! Jesus H... I come out in a rash if I go into a Sainsbury's!

Also, where did all the school buses go?

My Mum used to give me money for the bus but no pocket money. School was 2 miles each way. Now I know why she did this.

I never caught the bus.

There isn't one, is there? And even if there were, we couldn't all switch to it.

http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/for-your-home/?gclid=CM_Wm6PvzacCFcJP4Qod4z0lCw

Probably not accomodate us all but it is a start we need to change.
The status Quo is clearly unsustainable

the last time fuel went up in France the consumption of fuel went down

Ah, didn't realise you were in France.

To be fair, I don't have figures, either for there or for here. I know that in the height of the fuel protests here in the mid-2000s, we were looking at a pound a litre, now some six years on it's 40% more than that. When I started driving circa 1990, IIRC it was under 40p/litre.

I filled up this morning and it was over £90 - if it rises much more it'll be £100 per tank. If we're going to have another "protest," I suspect that might be a tipping point for people.

Purely anecdotally, I've not seen a noticable change in traffic volume or speed. If anything, there's more cars and they're going faster. Like I say though, I don't have any figures for this so could well be wrong.

I've not seen a noticable change in traffic volume or speed. If anything, there's more cars and they're going faster. Like I say though, I don't have any figures for this so could well be wrong

The same people still do 55 in the middle lane or 60 if they go over into the third lane.

The same people still drive as though they are Schumacher from the 90's with their company cars.

What we don't notice is the people who have to commute by car but now with pack lunches, cancelled foreign holidays, living on budgets and turning the hearing off at home.

[url= http://www.caradisiac.com/Baisse-historique-de-la-consommation-de-carburant-en-aout-26937.htm ]Diesel consumption dropped 10.6% in August 2008 when the oil price reached $150[/url]

And 47% of people were prepared to reduce their fuel consumption if the high prices continued.

Hora. Shut your jibba jabba fool. She was actually trying to get you killed. She cackle demoniacally as you tramped dutifully off on your normal walk to school. Down the hard shoulder of the M62

Come on Yeti. Who could resist.....

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😀

I just did a bit of sick in my mouth.

Binners, at least we got shoes as kids. I know kids in Warrington had to make do with bare feet and the only excitement that came to the town was when the IRA held a fireworks display 😆

Well, I made the choice to get a job I could cycle to every day

I think a lot of us would absolutely love that. We're not all in such a fortunate position though.

[quote> http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/for-your-home/?gclid=CM_Wm6PvzacCFcJP4Qod4z0lCw

Probably not accomodate us all but it is a start we need to change

I'm with Ecotricity. This, from their own website:

n just four years we have more than
doubled the amount of green electricity in
our mix to 41%. All from our own
windmills. (The UK average is 6.6%.)

..tells you two things. One is that they can't even supply their own small customer base with 100% renewable, and the other is that there is only enough renewable currently for 6.6% of the UK's needs.

Yes we do need to change, and signing up for Ecotricity is a great start but getting up to say 20% is going to be extremely hard. And then we'd only be 1/5 of the way there!

I just did a bit of sick in my mouth.

Yossarian... please describe your design for life, maybe we can learn from you?

nah, work it out for yourself, its not hard

..tells you two things. One is that they can't even supply their own small customer base with 100% renewable, and the other is that there is only enough renewable currently for 6.6% of the UK's needs.

yep, spot on. nothing's going to change unless the consumer demands it unfortunately.

As if this was just about bunnies. I expect better from you tsy!

😆 I was trying to be inciteful!

Yossarian... I would suggest you are lucky, or fortunate. Maybe I should move. Oh wait a minute... I already live close enough to cycle. 😆 20 miles each way, everyday would probably be bit of a ball ache though.

hora - Member
I know kids in Warrington had to make do with bare feet and the only excitement that came to the town was when the IRA held a fireworks display

It wasn't particularly exciting for three year old Johnathan Ball or twelve year old Tim Parry.

🙄

How will truckdrivers like neilsonwheels dispose of Prostitutes in the future if he doesn't have access to petrol?

20%. Spain tops that whenever there's a bit of wind. Germany is now over 17% and rising. France is at 15.5%.

Warrington had to make do with bare feet and the only excitement that came to the town was when the IRA held a fireworks display

How high do you think fuel prices will have to reach before...

...people stop driving like dickheads?

clearly, quite a lot more.

20%. Spain tops that whenever there's a bit of wind. Germany is now over 17% and rising. France is at 15.5%.

Aware of that. Just saying - it will be hard for us to beat that.

And it will. Politically, economically, socially.. difficult.

Shouldn't be but there you go.

The sanctimonious vegan shoe wearing crowd...

This will be the same crowd that...

care to share how you've achieved your carbon neutral utopia?

Surely using an end product doesn't preclude you from questioning the production methods.

As far as you can.

It's down to choices and priorites. The guy with a Porsche Cayenne and £2000 heating bill obviously doesn't have the same priorities or right to compalin about fuel prices as the man with a Polo, well insulated home, a solar hot water heater and a pile of share certificates in renewable start-ups.