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Whose still posting, you have to question STW/The mods views on racism if stuff like that (and other posts i’ve seen on here) is allowed to fly
I’ve cancelled my sub if thats what they think is acceptable
Did you report it?
Cancelling your sub because you don't like something posted on a public forum seems a bit of an overreaction, IMO.
Mooman
When in a hole stop digging
You just show your ignorance
What would you do in the situation outlined?
What is your professional expertise in dementia care. Ward management and ethics
I assure you that you do not have the standing to challenge me.
Whilst it is important to see each person as individual, by not acknowledging colour you don't see their difficulties. BAME people face micro-aggressions, discrimination, and hostility daily at school, shopping and work. It's the kids who call them monkey, it's the teacher who blames them because they think black people are stupid, the security guard that follows them because they think black people are dodgy, as well as the boss who thinks they are lazy. You don't have to be a redneck to be racist, educated, kind, and polite people are too.
In response to Tj and Mooman:- If a patient is distressed by the skin colour of a staff member to the point of potentially injuring themselves or others, then surely it makes sense to wait until another member of staff is available, unless it's life or death. I'd entrust a relative's care to Tj, his retirement will be a loss to patients and staff in our NHS
A lot people are talking about getting back to normal. For some people getting back to normal is worse than living with coronavirus.
Is it normal to open your social media or turn on the TV to see a snuff movie, then cut to the advertising break to see a charity ad showing an African child scrambling for water in a dirty puddle with a fly hovering around their mouth accompanied by a celebrity voiceover, reminding us of how caring we are?
We have normalised the brutalisation of black bodies. When the Eric Garner video was shown it offered up proof of what many knew to be situation normal. It was an extraordinary video at the time. Nothing was done. The proliferation and repeated showing of such images in the absence of action amounts not to proof but pornography.
As non minorities we should ask ourselves what kind of normal is this that we want to get back to? We should ask ourselves not only what it does to black people to see themselves reflected through imagery in such a horrific way but what does it do to us that we accept it as some kind of 'normal.
TJ,
I think that most on here can recognise that you have a duty of care to both your patients and your staff.
Moonman, at first I thought you were trolling, now I think you are disturbing. A racist person with dementia is a racist person still, dementia doesnt give you a pass to be racist. Nothing in what TJ said suggested anything other than caree of duty, for everyone. He even caveated his comments with examples of how he could distinguish between racist intent and not on the part of his patients.
Unfortunately for all of us, you are incorrect. A correct statement would be “…its just not relevant to some things in everyday life…
so point out to me an everyday example where skin colour actually matters.
so point out to me an everyday example where skin colour actually matters.
If you don't know you can google it and on the assumption you aren't racist will see a long list quite clearly, I'm not here to respond to your ignorance.
Thanks for the support
Apologies for dragging this off topic but I was angry at the attack on my ethics that is clearly based on a total lack of understanding.
Dealing with people living with dementia who exhibit racist behaviour is challenging to say the least. It's about balancing the needs and rights of all involved and in the case above it was obviously reported up the chain of command for formal review and my approach was considered to follow best practice
I don’t see an issue with asking about someones heritage. Does your wife speak with a UK accent?
Yes she sounds English.
Have a look at this comedy short to help you grasp what I’m talking about
If you don’t know you can google it and on the assumption you aren’t racist will see a long list quite clearly, I’m not here to respond to your ignorance.
so you can't then. It isn't ignorance, I'm calling out your BS.
There are a range of ethic background people at my work and my place of study. Not once has their skin colour affected how I interact with them. I'm guessing they don't change the way they interact with me just because I have white skin.
so you can’t then.
Oh I can, I choose not to.
ethic background people
What, not Black, White, Asian, Middle Eastern?
Not once has their skin colour affected how I interact with them
It just did, see "ethic background people" vs "white skin".
@mooman is your determination to be offended a symptom of an underlying cognitive disorder? If not, stop being an ass.
I work in healthcare, but I have nowhere near the experience TJ has in dealing with dementia patients. However, the situation he describes is all too familiar, and the way he managed it sounds entirely appropriate to me.
Don't forget - Mooman's done a course.
If his posting on this thread is a reflection on how he did the job, he was shit at it.
Mooman, TJ's example is the best of a bad situation i'm afraid and is not bad practice. The mental health of the staff and patients is part of TJ's duty of care. If patients are unable to control their actions/words (due to dementia, which is understandable) then controls MUST be put in place to protect the patients and staff members mental health (part of a Risk Assessment process). Using the hierarchy of controls in the HASAWeA1974 (TJ and the other staff are at work remember) then Elimination of the hazard is the first, and best, control. This is followed by Reduction, so reducing the amount of time a staff member has with that patient. This is exactly what TJ has done.
Thankfully most health care staff are professional and able to work with challenging behaviours from ill people
I didn't know you self-identified as ill - glad to hear that people can accomodate your challenging behaviour.
Whose still posting, you have to question STW/The mods views on racism if stuff like that (and other posts i’ve seen on here) is allowed to fly
I’ve cancelled my sub if thats what they think is acceptable
I can't speak for the others, but this moderator for one doesn't have the faintest scooby what you're referring to. We do not and cannot read every single thread.
Using the "report post" link provided alongside every single post on the forum will immediately bring it to our attention. Cancelling a subscription or publicly whining about it on an entirely unrelated thread in order to have an unsubstantiated pop at a volunteer team, not so much.
Whilst it is important to see each person as individual, by not acknowledging colour you don’t see their difficulties.
Thanks, that's very helpful.
so you can’t then.
Oh I can, I choose not to.
sure
ethic background people
What, not Black, White, Asian, Middle Eastern?
Because I wasn't about to list all the different ethnicities. I'm happy do so if you really want but it is quite diverse and wouldn't serve any purpose.
Not once has their skin colour affected how I interact with them
It just did, see “ethic background people” vs “white skin”.
no it didn't. I'm not interacting with them. I discussing why colour doesn't affect how I interact with people on a forum. It is entirely appropriate to use those terms in this discussion.
I'm going to stop after this because its pointless but;
discussing why colour doesn’t affect how I interact with people on a forum. It is entirely appropriate to use those terms in this discussion.
The fact you either consciously or subconsciously chose the generalise people of any skin colour except your own is directly appropriate to this thread. Its subversive racism whether you meant it to be or not, likely ingrained from many years of our society's inability to treat all people of all races equally.
Now that you realise you've done it, you're pointing out that you don't need to because of the nature of this thread. In which case, why did you need to point out you are White?
I'm not saying you are wrong or right, I just showing you that ingrained racism IS a part of our daily lives whether you realise it or not. You fell victim to racial categorisation (White) and generalisation (ethnic background people) probably without realising it - but you did it and by doing it you segregated White people from everyone else.
Therefore In answer to your question; I've just pointed out to you and everyday example of where the mention of skin colour mattered. You could have rephrased your sentence to tell us/me that you communicated in harmony at work with a wide range of ethnicities... and stopped there. But you didn't, you called out your skin colour as "White" which appears as some kind of moral superior inference to your application. Therefore, skin colour mattered somehow in that sentence, otherwise why mention it?
I think also you could open up this conversation at your workplace - I'm pretty sure your colleagues will tell stories of racial prejudice whether you've observed them or not, which may be an education to you. I know that I received an education from similar exposure.
Anyway, have a good afternoon.
my god you don't half talk a load of snowflake bollox
Thanks for your thoughtful and intellectual response.
@moonman can you describe, in detail, what TJ should be doing instead of what he is doing? You keep mentioning duty of care, to whom, the patient or his staff? After all he has a duty of care for both. Do you think it appropriate to subject a colleague to serious racial abuse irrespective of where said abuse is coming from?
You know about dementia and that’s fine. Knowing is a whole different game to dealing with though. Do you work with dementia patients or are you just well read on the disease?
Back to the OP - Directly is the best way to deal with it. Call it out wherever you see it if you can.
Poah, you seem a little fragile yourself. You may think it isn't relevant to you because you are in a privileged position, but it is to those it negatively affects. It has been articulately explained to you how insidious racism is and you retaliated with an insult, your status is not under threat and you don't need to be so defensive.
Wow there’s quite a few folk on here with their head in the sand.
Interesting to look at what’s happening in the states. KK people burning out shops and breaking windows to pour fuel on the fire. Then Trump calling for the trouble to be put down hard. No attempt by those in power to listen to the grievances and address the issues.
It really concerns me that people like Poah and Mooman are apparently in positions of responsibility. Poah also has form on here for not being able to tolerate other minority groups as well whilst thinking he's behaving correctly.
If they don't want to be educated, probably best just ignored.
Oh, and I'd let TJ look after my elderly parents any day. Even if my Dad does sometimes use inappropriate language, I know he'll deal with it professionally and compassionately.
Quite agree Poah and Mooman do come across very badly on this thread. Maybe it’s time they had a good look in the mirror.
Not being racist is the new racism.
Thanks again for the support.
I'll just add it's also my duty of care to the rest of the patients. If I divert a white member of staff immediately it may compromise others care
I could add a lot more. I doubt mooman is even well read on the topic given his fallacious description of dementia.
I think tho he has dug a deep enough hole. No need for me to fill it in on top of him.
Ignorance certainly can’t explain this behaviour:
https://www.dw.com/en/munich-bans-use-of-nazi-jewish-star-at-coronavirus-protests/a-53644792
Racism is not just whites against blacks .. it can be the other way around too;
And between other ethnic groups as well, even between African cultures, in London there are frequent confrontations between Somali, Ethiopian and other Black African communities resulting in violence, and families from the Indian sub-continent can show similar attitudes towards white English people - there was an Indian girl I used to know who was friends with other friends of mine, and she had an white English boyfriend. Her parents were fine with that, up until she announced they were getting engaged, at which point her parents told her that was unacceptable, and she had to finish with him, otherwise she would no longer be accepted in her family.
She went ahead anyway and they got married. As far as I’m aware, there wasn’t a softening of her parents attitude, although I haven’t seen her around for quite a few years now.
Her family were pretty well-off, and high-caste, so that may have had something to do with things as well.
All very sad.
As other here demonstrate; lack of knowledge of dementia is a significant problem when combined with health care staff who do not know their duty of care.
Thankfully most health care staff are professional and able to work with challenging behaviours from ill people.
@mooman - having read tjagain’s posts, and those who clearly know the system and processes involved and who are backing his actions, I can only suggest you put down that shovel, I’ve got something here that’s better equipped for digging the hole you’re standing in...
...and filling it in again afterwards.
@Cougar - nice response to the toys being tossed out of the park and flouncing back a bit. 😁
But... MOOMAN DID A COURSE!!!
Some of you lot need your heads clashed together.
Read this or so help me god, I'll rap you round the back of your legs with my knuckles.
If wee kids know how to talk about race.... i'm sure you big boys can.
Now play nicely or go to your own rooms and stay there. I'm not putting up with this. Just you wait until your dad gets home......
Oh my word, some of the views and downright rudeness coupled with the refusal to accept that held views may be incorrect is quite scary.
How do you challenge racism, first up educate yourself...
I was reading a lot of stuff last night wondering how best to do this and thought "I know, my mate does loads of work with kids about race and racism, he's always great to talk to about this kind of stuff. I'll ask him." Before doing so I then read something else, don't ask a BAME (Black and Minority Ethnic) person for information about what you should do. Yes, my mate is BAME. I have to mention this because it pertains to my story.
I wanted to ask him for his knowledge because he is BAME and I initially thought that's a good thing to do because I am very white, middle class, straight and have no concept of the microagressions and bias that he faces in his everyday life. I am female so have a tiny understanding of some of it, but it's different. However, I learn that I shouldn't, because in doing I would be asking him to do the work for me. Instead I need to use my own time and energy to find resources to educate myself.
There's loads of stuff out there, when Krpton57 said:
If you don’t know you can google it and on the assumption you aren’t racist will see a long list quite clearly, I’m not here to respond to your ignorance."
he was right, look for it yourself, don't be so lazy and assume that other people will provide the evidence for you. Your opinions have been challenged, if you believe yourself to be so high and mighty that you are incapable of being wrong you are very much part of the problem not the cure.
Having said that, I recognise there are people on here who won't look, or will go to the easiest first source, so here's one on white privilege to get you started: http://www.aclrc.com/white-privilege
A search for information on "unconscious bias" may also be helpful for some people.
In the words of Rachel Cargle ( https://www.instagram.com/rachel.cargle/ )
I implore you to remember — the point of AntiRacism work isn’t to make white people feel they are “doing better” in their positions of privilege and power within this immoral system— it is for them to hold themselves and their white community accountable for addressing and attacking the very system that needs to be destroyed in order for black people to stay alive and to be well.
And now I set you free to look, learn and educate yourself to be better, off you trot and don't come back until you've learnt something and have references to back it up.
Nice one Kip! 👍🏼
How do you challenge racism?
Three pages in and have we decided if it's a big stick, or ostracization ?
"colour blindness"
I think this can mean two different things to people. Not noticing colour which IMO is self deception and not treating people of colour differently to anyone else.
Personally I don't really do either. I certainly notice the colour of peoples skin and I probably overcompensate by watching out for me and others behaving differently towards them.
As the number of BAME people in nursing has increased over the years I think incidence of unthinking racism has decreased as its become normalised to have BAME staff around
However, I learn that I shouldn’t, because in doing I would be asking him to do the work for me. Instead I need to use my own time and energy to find resources to educate myself.
I think that's up for debate. I have learned a lot from talking to BAME people that I would not otherwise have learned. Assuming that the people who are prepared to write about it are doing so because they want to educate people, I'd assume that they would also be prepared to talk to you about it. But simply walking up and asking how not to be racist, that would be a bit much - as if it's a thing that can be explained in 5 minutes - so I can see both sides there. Like most things it has to be approached with tact.
I guess in general that asking questions on a difficult topic is ok if they are intelligent questions....
I wanted to ask him for his knowledge because he is BAME and I initially thought that’s a good thing to do because I am very white, middle class, straight and have no concept of the microagressions and bias that he faces in his everyday life. I am female so have a tiny understanding of some of it, but it’s different. However, I learn that I shouldn’t, because in doing I would be asking him to do the work for me. Instead I need to use my own time and energy to find resources to educate myself.
I'm sorry, but to me this is well wrong. One of the principle ways I educate myself is to talk to people.
Whereas you're saying it's okay to read what someone has written, or watch them talk on youtube, but not to approach them??
My concern is that, as with the loose usage of words yesterday, you undermine your credibility and valid points by inserting statements like the above, which to a lot of people seem slightly absurd.
What’s it like under your bridge? Care to provide an outline of exactly what should be done in the situation outlined by TJ? If not then you are just trolling. We know what TJ does for a living and what his credentials are. You on the other hand.
As is typical with STW – the idiots always come out in defence of the other idiots.
Don’t ever change mooman. You’re a walking talking explanation of Dunning-Kruger. 😀
In the meantime, any chance you could step away from the thread? You’re continuously trying to derail it.
he was right, look for it yourself, don’t be so lazy and assume that other people will provide the evidence for you. Your opinions have been challenged, if you believe yourself to be so high and mighty that you are incapable of being wrong you are very much part of the problem not the cure.
That isn't how it works. If you claim something then you have to provide the supporting evidence.
I don't see colour because it isn't relevant. Friend at uni on my PGDE course is black, why would I treat them any differently to someone else just because his skin produces more melanin than mine. That is utterly preposterous, biased and racist. Do you think they do the same?
our systemic racism
Our? Who are you addressing?
I don’t see colour because it isn’t relevant. Friend at uni on my PGDE course is black, why would I treat them any differently to someone else just because his skin produces more melanin than mine.
Then you are ignorant of the issues POC face. Once everyone is treated equally by all, then colour will cease to be relevant.
Actually my credentials? I really do not know why I have to justify myself to a know nothing troll
Registered nurse.
Studied law and ethics to honours degree level with one of Scotlands top law professors. Passed with distinction
Studied care of people living with dementia with world renowned experts at honours degree level. Passed with distinction.
Both of those at my own expense in my own time
Acted as dementia link nurse for many years as an exemplar of best practice
Taught dementia care and managing challenging behaviour to student nurses and CSWs
Used by senior staff as a resource for challenging behaviour and often allocated the most challenging patients because of my skills.
Run a dementia care unit where I was commended for the quality of care.
But according to someone who clearly has no understanding and no qualifications or knowledge is guilty of elder abuse?