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[quote="mooman"] I find the whole white privilege thing offensive and blatantly ignorant.<
Classic racist excuse Denying white privilege exists
I’m minded of a match report of when Man Utd played Ipswich Town in 1995.
‘This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets the flimsiest of objects’
Actually my credentials? I really do not know why I have to justify myself to a know nothing troll
Hold your horses - Mooman done a course!!
Me, I'm super-grateful for everything you and your colleagues do, TJ, in spite of the jobsworths with clipboards you have inflicted on you from time to time.
That is utterly preposterous, biased and racist.
No one's asking you to treat him differently, you're being ask courteously to learn about the problems he faces that perhaps you're not aware of, with these problems directly related to his skin colour.
I don’t see colour because it isn’t relevant.
That is racial prejudice pure and simple, to ignore and deny is to perpetuate the problem.
I don’t see colour because it isn’t relevant. Friend at uni on my PGDE course is black, why would I treat them any differently to someone else just because his skin produces more melanin than mine. That is utterly preposterous, biased and racist. Do you think they do the same?
I don't think "seeing colour" = "treat people differently", I'm not sure what it means - until this week I would have said I don't see colour, and I'd have meant it in a well-meaning, naive and very broad anti-racism sense. I got some reading to do before I can say what I think it means.
Moonman, what are you even doing on here?
You're like the alt-right protester dressed like Darth Vader with a brolly smashing store windows with a hammer. Where he was exploiting protests about police brutality to sow more discord and division, you're jumping on a thread about racism and using it to attack the person on here who probably knows the most about Alzheimer's and accusing him of not knowing about Alzheimer's.
Poah,
If they ever do a new series of the Fast show, I nominate you as a character.
Anyway, in response to the OP.
I find the best way to deal with direct racism is to just call it out there and then. No need to a lecture on why it's racist, just a simple "Oh come on, don't be a ****t" or "sorry, it's not the 1970s" said in a friendly slightly humorous tone is usually sufficient to keep most people in check. If it sounds like they really mean it, then I usually go with "wow, thats a pretty cruel and nasty thing to come out with"
I don’t see colour because it isn’t relevant
Well it's certainly relevant in the case of the McMichaels, Amy Cooper and Derek Chauvin. Just because it affects us middle-aged white guys far less than any African American, nothing justifies you sweeping it under the carpet because you're 'colourblind'
I see the colour of people's skin, there I've said it! and you know what? I like having people from different parts of the world (hell, even different parts of my own country), from different cultures, with different religions, languages and with different life stories around me in my dailly life because (as I tell my kids) if we were all the same and liked doing the same things then life would be boring as variety is the spice of life.
Can you imagine life without curry, the potato, regae, soul and all the other cultural things we come into contact every day that was originally not from these shores? It'd be shit!
However I try challenge racism even the micro sometimes passive racist behavior of people around me at work, where I live etc. And I hope if I say something inadvertently outdated term that is now perceived as being racist then I want to be challenged too. It's how we will shape our society, slowly one little bit at a time.
Embrace diversity.
Integration not segregation.
Has mooman been deleted?
#leerigby is trending today, which tells you a lot about the state of this country
I don't know who Lee Rigby is as I try not watch the news, don't use Facebook or Twitter as it gets me down. And I'd say I'm not the only one.
Looks like it Matt
#leerigby is trending today, which tells you a lot about the state of this country
Jesus. 🙁
Looked up quite a few books on black history and racism - interesting how many are out of stock. A good sign?
@Rydster. I was referring to white westerners, as our governments are in our image and reflect the values of the majority.
#leerigby is trending today, which tells you a lot about the state of this country
🤷🏻♂️
And I repeat Wow!
My concern is that, as with the loose usage of words yesterday, you undermine your credibility and valid points by inserting statements like the above, which to a lot of people seem slightly absurd.
This response to me saying I shouldn't ask a BAME person for information but look for it myself was a little surprising. I was quoting something I'd read about how I get my information about racism and the experiences of BAME people.
I also like to speak to people with experiences I haven't had to further my knowledge and understanding, however in this case, it was suggested my first port of call should be the amazing resources that are already out there.
Yes, by all means chat with friends and colleagues if they are open to the conversation, but don't assume they want to be the person who answers all your questions. It's hard work and suggests we can't be arsed to so it ourselves.
Reni Eddo-Lodge's book Why I'm no longer talking to White people about race is brilliant and explains that very point.
I included a link to the Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre (a Canadian site) which has a wealth of well referenced articles. This one from the Goodmenproject.com<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> is referenced in the article about white privilege and is an interesting read about why talking to White people about racism is so hard.</span>
By the way, I use the term BAME because that's what the Equality, Diversity and Inclusivity team where I work use. Others use POC (People of colour) and BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, and People of Colour) is also used. And coincidentally I did my EDI refresher today, so I too have "done a course." Can I abuse TJ for no reason at all now?
Keep challenging discriminatory systems and behaviours wherever you see them. We don’t have to accept a racist status quo!
Keep challenging your own prejudices - we all have them.
Don’t accept or tolerate racist abuse - whenever you can.
BTW - in the main, this place is better than most other communities. As a POC I very much feel welcomed and not pre-judged here.
I accept people as who they are as I have no intention to change them, good or bad. My reason is simple I don't want to impose on others as I don't want others to impose on me regardless. Live and let live.
My boss at work has just announced that Derek Chauvin killed George Floyd because Mr Floyd is black and Mr Chauvin is white. There is no evidence for that assertion, it is purely based on the skin colour of the two individuals. Should I challenge it?
I found this piece quiet interesting, unfortunately not surprising, but it does explain the constant racial abuse from a young age that some people suffer, even though the perpetrators may not realise what they've said causes offence (not defending it btw).
As the number of BAME people in nursing has increased over the years I think incidence of unthinking racism has decreased as its become normalised to have BAME staff around
There have been significant numbers of BAME working in nursing since well before you qualified. Not a dig TJ (Hopefully you that is clear 👍🏼) - just stating the fact. Largely from all over Commonwealth and former Commonwealth nations... This I have a personal view of - my dad having been one of so very many...
There have been significant numbers of BAME working in nursing since well before you qualified.
Maybe not in Scotland.
mooman wrote:
I find the whole white privilege thing offensive and blatantly ignorant.<
I would really love it if you could provide some evidence as to why?
StuF, thanks, really interesting read. I've read similar but the piece that said:
I also have to alter headlines constantly to 1) include a person’s name and not have it just be “Black Man Wins Settlement” or “Carnegie Hall Gets 1st Black Board Member,” or 2) rephrase it from a subtle subjugator like “ABC taps Viola Davis as Series Lead” to “Viola Davis Lands Lead on ABC Show” as is done for, say, Jennifer Aniston or Steven Spielberg.
I found especially enlightening. I got the bit about using colour not name to describe the subject but not the subtle subjugator bit. That is much clearer and makes this sort of comment or headline much easier to recognise for the racist language it is.
Bravo that man (my unconscious bias is assuming you to be a man, hopefully correctly).
P.S. I do love a good reference!
That was a good read StuF. The phrase 'white privilege' has entered the lexicon over the last few years and it scares people. Not just those who read BLM as 'only' black lives matter, rather than black lives matter as much as white lives. (The actual message of the movement)
I saw Toto Wolf supporting Lewis Hamilton earlier. He said words to the effect that Lewis once asked him: 'Toto, do you ever go about your day being conscious that you're white.' To which Toto replied: no Lewis, I've never really thought about it. Lewis replied that it something he has to be conscious of every day in his dealings with the world.
For Toto Wolf this was a revelation and I think perfectly encompasses both what white privilege is and how the concept can still be alien to an otherwise intelligent and competent person until they are open to have it either explained or revealed to them.
Maybe not in Scotland.
The midges put them off!😁. As I said though - not a dig at TJ, I appreciate and respect his perspective.
jamj1974
Not taken as a dig. Its just my experience both in Scotland and in Manchester. I started working in the health service in the late 70s. In scotland there were almost none. It Manchester in the 80s very few. 2 out of 100+ in my training group for example. None at all in the little hospital I worked at in Kirkintilloch n the late 70s
I can understand why you find that odd given the windrush generation and so on and especially so given the big BAME population in manchester
It was the same with men. there were 3 men out of 600+ nurses in that manchester hospital
I just remember black faces being rarer then than they are now. Maybe because it was mainly small suburban / peripheral hospitals that than the big district generals?
I saw Toto Wolf supporting Lewis Hamilton earlier. He said words to the effect that Lewis once asked him: ‘Toto, do you ever go about your day being conscious that you’re white.’ To which Toto replied: no Lewis, I’ve never really thought about it. Lewis replied that it something he has to be conscious of every day in his dealings with the world.
For Toto Wolf this was a revelation
Now I thought I’d had this type of conversation to death with my wife over many years of deep, drunk, sober young and now mid life conversation. I’ve just relayed this to her, and she’s agreed with Lewis and repeated a few more things that happen while we been together in places, that I’ve never noticed. These include people clutching their bags tighter, people crossing the road. I asked why she thinks I didn’t notice; her response is akin to Toto’s experience. Because I’m not looking for or expecting it, my brain is racially naive to it
It’s a sad world, isn’t it, but very much our responsibility to continue an education leading to change.
I was totally blind to racism, I lived in a nice bubble where most people were civil and polite. That was until I met my ex, who was from Nigeria. I'd never been pulled over by the police to ask what I was doing driving in a neighbourhood, until I met him. Almost every family wedding we went to, the border agency were there, I was considering sending them a formal invite. Each time we applied for a visa it would be declined, only to be accepted a week before we were due in court. We never knew if he was going to be served a deportation notice, or if he was going to be detained when he had to sign weekly at the police station.
It's worse for our kids though. My youngest was dismissed as being too sensitive, when her friends were saying that brown people are dirty/smelly/stupid... Kids will be kids though, eh? Parents would shout at my kids that they weren't allowed to play in parkland, the others could stay though.
She tried to whiten her skin with toothpaste, aged 5. Age six, she was talking about suicide.
Then a teacher made a racist comment, backed up by the Head of Education; stating that "black people are physiologically different to white people". The SPSO legislation actively prevents them from even investigating. I wrote to every agency, but it was not within their remit. I wrote to MSP's and the media, but there was limited interest.
I wrote to every BAME professor of education, sociology and sports in the UK. I received quite moving replies of support, encouraging me not to give up. I compiled a tight case, which I took to the best human rights lawyer who commended my work. He recommended that I push for a judicial review, at a cost of at least £60k. Legal aid isn't available for human rights or public law.
Whilst that was going on I was ostracised for speaking out, the PC refused to help despite policy and the council threatened to take my kids off of me; I really should consider the effect my fight has on their mental health.
My kids have been called monkey and N*, they have been followed and stared at, and they have been beaten by gangs.
They are 9 and 12, we live in a pretty little Scottish village not far from Edinburgh, full of professionals and ex teachers.
From this small snapshot of my experience you can see how policy and practice, whilst all being legal can institutionally discriminate. This isn't a unique experience, this is the daily experience of the vast majority of BAME people in the UK. I've been "privileged" to gain an insight as to how the system works, and it's my sense of entitlement that is driving me to push for justice. Despite being shut down numerous times, I've been patient and I hope people are ready to listen.
Kryton,
Yep. Been with my partner for 26 years and still learn new things, or am made aware of things I've taken for granted.
I'm not naive, I've seen quite a lot of things over the years that have shaped my understanding of racism and have been very much aware of white privilege, it's something I've had to negotiate with in both social and at work contexts. It's one thing to be intelligent and avowedly non racist but without having relevant experiences to draw upon opinions become moral positions that are divorced from reality.
Faerie,
I hope some posting here on a few of the current threads read your post. I've had to stop myself countering some of the posters on here with things I've actually seen or experienced, because they're difficult, because they're private, because they're complex.
So thank you for your small snapshot.
faerie - thanks for sharing.
Faerie , thanks for sharing that shocking reality and I sincerely hope your situation improves.
Inkster, spot on. We’ve been together for 20 years and things still shock me. We are lucky to live in fairly cosmopolitan London and one of my wife’s greatest joys is that our kids schools classrooms are so disparately mixed, they are lucky. We are having a tough time - for all the right reasons - explaining to my 11yo what the current situation is all about.
Yet it’s literally not black and white. It’s African and Caribbean, Turkish and Kurdish, Jewish and not... so much conflict. I’m originally from a small sussex village, my first experience was of seeing a severed Deers head being placed outside the villages new and first Indian restaurant On my way to my paper-round at 12yo. As I grew up, I wondered of every body I knew in that village as a child who it was with such evil hatred that could treat people and such a majestic animal that way for a racist agenda. It often springs to mind in my adult life.
For the morons (I dont even care if I offend you at this point) claim "all lives matter", "oh I don't see colour" or "saying I have privilege due to my skin colour is racist" just WATCH and LISTEN to Eliot Jacksons experiences
I really hope maying if this comes from a fellow cyclists might make you listen to his words a little more.
CBA to read all this, but my experience is that I do not like to be told and I dig in when challenged hard. Because of that and seeing others do it, I try harder to accept criticism and try to realise when I'm being proud and obtuse. Not very succesful, but hey ho...
Reflecting that personal experience on everyone else, I prefer to try and empathise with those I disagree with and present alternative viewpoints.
Ha ha... Chance of that working is low, also its hard to be nice when someone is an utter tosser.
However I have converted 1 brexiteer and softened 2 more. I also talked a good friend out of death penalty approval (he also racist but we can't talk about that as he won't admit or say racist things near me). I think 1 for 1 conversion is good, if we all converted 1 person then that would cover most of the population.
So I say be nice, disagree respectfully, demonstrate the kind of person you should be, and walk away when presented with unmitigated arseholery.
Edit I read Faeries post and this makes me want to contradict my own advice and kick the **** out of all of the racists, I am sorry people are like that.
Thanks for sharing - it's bloody heart-breaking. 🙁 I've never been more aware of my white privilege, I've got a lot of learning to do...
I've deleted the last half dozen posts due to receiving both complaints about the posts and an apology from the poster in question. Can we have an Etch-a-Sketch moment and try again please?
Point of note here: I know I've said this many times before but it's even more critical on sensitive topics, please use the "report post" link if something problematic is posted. That's the fastest way of getting it reviewed, we do not spend our entire lives constantly reading every thread (contrary to how it might seem).
@molgrips of course, let me know if you'd like any more information. I have identified systemic and institutional racism within the Scottish education system, judicial system and government. This stems from the playground to Bute House, and all I'm asking for is implicit bias training for educational staff, and a few judicial reviews. I'm not going to get any justice in retrospect and I'm not holding out for an apology, but if I can make a positive change for future generations I'd be well chuffed
If we assert that education is the key, then it is important to recognise that not only have we been failing to make progress within our education system, we have actually been going backwards.
Michael Gove's education reforms mirrored the Brexit campaign.
All schools were sent a copy of the King James Bible, with a special forward by Michael Gove himself.
To quote from the Independent: 'It was out with GCSE drama and dance lessons and 'To Kill a Mockingbird' as it was thought there were no lessons to be learnt from that novel'.
The Arts came under siege, working in the arts myself I understood the political nature of the attack but perhaps more sinisterly, in the removal of dance classes and the consequent stripping of their value I saw a racial dimension.
Removing 'To Kill a Mockingbird' from the curriculum was beyond ironic.
There was also push back against the teaching of the life of Mary Seacole, how dare she take some of the limelight from our beloved Florence Nightingale. (Massively more people, mostly ex-servicemen attended her memorial parade than they did for Queen Victoria's.)
Michael Gove re wrote history to conform to a white supremacist, pro Empire narrative.
Thats a great meme, stealing that.
I have one thing to add - honesty/truth.
To me this is crucial, despite believing in the concept of anti racism, do any of us recognise racism in ourselves.
I think it is important to allow people to admit mistakes and change, maybe it is unconscious bias, maybe a younger you was consciously racist. Either way we need to make the space for these people to admit mistakes, this might mean reserving judgement on their actions so we can hear out their mistakes.
If you write people off for being racist, they will never change. It is better to lead by example and be forgiving.
To that end I can admit to being racist.
If anything it was recent. I grew up in the 80's in a small country town where there were about 4 black people and a chinese restaurant. To me at this time I would say I was race/colourblind they were all just other humans.
However only 2 years ago I was in a park in Paris with my wife & kids. There was a group of young men playing football near us, jumpers for goalposts. They looked to be of middle east origin. They were boistourous and sexist to passing women, and most crucially to me, they were spitting all the time, on the ground, not just in the area they were playing but all over near the kids playground etc.
This replused me and I was concerned my kids would step or touch their spit. I asked them to reign it in, and the sexism, in my crap french. They told me to **** off so I lost my temper and called them filthy arab ****s in english. Well it turned out they spoke english and were not happy and we had a bit of a row where I did not edify myself in any way. Especially in front of my kids.
When I calmed down I realised that my racism did not trump their unsanitary behaviour. I had a long talk to myself, my wife and kids and with their agreement I apologised. One of the group punched me. In a moment of clarity, I turned around and walked away to their jeers.
There are three points here:
1) I was racist.
2) I would still call out their behaviour regardless of colour. I would/should have done it without the racial abuse. IE filthy ****s, without the 'arab'... (Joke) I should have gently suggested they stop spitting and then found somewhere else to play if they were not receptive to my wisdom.
3) If I had been punched at the end of that, I still would like to think I would have walked away.
In fact even now I find if I see groups of middle eastern looking men in public I avoid them. I know I still harbour a 'racial grudge' when I know it is wrong.
But one thing I realise, is that if it was a group of white anglo saxon men playing footy, I would actually be just as cautious, and have to remind myself that bad behaviour is not due to skin colour.