[Closed] How come UN resolutions and the Geneva Convention don't apply to Israel?

^ Nicely Done JY 😀

Given what's going on behind the scenes, Israel should be boycotted until they sort their apartheid like treatment of Palestinians

Lets imagine that Wales was the holy land and the Queen was building a fortified wall to keep the Welsh in, whilst taking water from aquifers below Wales for a few of her country homes, reducing the amount of clean water available to the Welsh... whatsmore, the Queen was also imposing strict rules on the transit of Welsh citizens and ensuring limited import of goods. I won't go into too much detail of the aid ship in the Irish sea...

That would suck a bit, huh...

Israel & Palestine are clearly unable to resolve their differences by themselves, and I would urge the other nations to help both sides to see reason, and see the benefits mutual respect.

I can't see this happening though.

It was noted that at PMQ's today there wasn't a single mention of whats going on in Israel and Palastine. The conclusion: why would any British politician bother commenting on it? Or any other European leader? No matter what they say, nobody out there is listening anyway. The Americans are the only ones who can get people to the negotiating table. They've done it before.

I won't be holding my breath for that though

Israel & Palestine are clearly unable to resolve their differences by themselves, and I would urge the other nations to help both sides to see reason, and see the benefits mutual respect.

no, i would urge Israel to stop brutalizing the Palestinians, repair all the damage it has done to Palestine, get rid of its nuclear arsenal, acknowledge that as a nation it has become a pariah and is a war criminal, encourage its top politicians and military personnel to be tried as the war criminals that they are, and give back all the land it has stolen from the Palestinians and return to the original borders it was given....only then can we say a step has been made in the right direction...

I can't see this happening though.

What, you mean like UN resolutions and that?

UN resolutions are a cynical tool used by various Governments to score points off each other (Think USA, Russia, China, Israel, UK etc.)

Like I think I said, I can't see that happening because no party is truly prepared to put aside their differences for a common good. If USA, Russia et al could combine in a serious way I think that together they could bash heads together between the Israelis and Palestinians and actually achieve something.

I can not see any of that happening any time soon. Sadly, your big wall solution doesn't work either.

i would urge Israel to stop brutalizing the Palestinians, repair all the damage it has done to Palestine, get rid of its nuclear arsenal, acknowledge that as a nation it has become a pariah and is a war criminal,

war criminal are you insane ! get rid of its nuclear weapons why should they do that ? do expect any other country to do so ?

a lot of hot air being blown about including myself...for that reason Im out...

This being a forum we are all entitled to our views at the end of the day nothing we can do will change this war or any other...if only we lived in a peaceful world it would be great...I don't agree with senseless killing at any level and because of the extremists (on both sides) its making it even harder to negotiate.

Shalom aleikhem

or

salaam alaikum

Im happy with either...

Gonzy,

Whislt we are talking about people having their land stolen. I would mention that My wife's (Jewish) parents were expelled from Egypt in the 1950'a after having all of their property confiscated, their ancestors having lived their since their expulsion from Spain in 1492.

Your demands are unrealistic both sides exist and are not going away.

and give back all the land it has stolen from the Palestinians and return to the original borders it was given....only then can we say a step has been made in the right direction...

Everyone needs to give up being so righteous and put their differences aside.

unfitgeezer - Member
and where do you get your information from?
Try reading some Israeli papers...

Everyone needs to give up being so righteous and put their differences aside.

Wholly agree, but due to brainwashing and compulsory military service with the IDF, it'll take an immense shift in values to make that happen, nonetheless, there is hope:

full documentary here:

[img] [/img]

Your demands are unrealistic both sides exist and are not going away.

Try reading some Israeli papers...

[img] https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4277099520/h899CEBC9/ [/img]

hungry monkey

[img] [/img]

im sure you can work it out

Gonzy,

Nobody took what thy were given. The British suggested a partition plan which was rejected. Israel then declared independence, and took what it could. It was wrongly assumed by the Arabs that together with Jordan Iraq, Lebanon etc. It would be trivial to throw us out and take everything. That backfired when we defeated the Arab armies.

None of this changes the need to come to a. Civilized agreement.

Everyone needs to give up being so righteous and put their differences aside.

That backfired when we defeated the Arab armies.

Any civilised arrangement will inevitably involve the return of the [ majority of the ]stuff you stole and the conversation wont start whilst you continue to land grab and build settlements. Illegal under international law and often against your own law

EZrider - Member

Israel then declared independence, and took what it could

Civilized agreement.

I didn't say might is right. That is what happened.And here we are today.

so you accept that the land taken by force must be returned then?

EDIT: FWIW you seem , given how shitty the situation is on both sides, pretty reasonable on the issue so I am not meaning to sound as combative as it does.

Israel has huge freedom of the press and the govt are often criticised freely. Ha aretz for instance vergesa times of having anti Israeli articles. Hence reading the Israeli press is not such a daft idea.

I don't think Israel has any interest in a settlement. Instability furthers their aims. Which is to take more and more territory, build more and more illegal settlements. The maps above perfectly illustrate this. From an Israelis perspective - why would they negotiate a settlement, they are slowly eating away at what,s left of Palestine. The last time the two sides were at the negotiating table, being prodded by the US (details are a bit hazy, I'm afraid, it was few years ago) and a settlement looked possible, the Israelis bombed some Pleastinian generals, and of coarse it all fell apart. At that point I realised the Israelis had no interest in a negotiated settlement. They'll just keep going, until there's nothing left for the Palstinians to negotiate for. They've done it all along, they've taken all this territory by force, it's been working all this time - why stop now. I don't understand the Palestinian tactics though.

Really? Israel has no interest in peace? Israel returned Sinai to Egypt for peace, made peace with Jordan andppullwd out of Gaza.

Yeah, 2 nation states with significant,well armed and well drilled military forces.

Funny how quickly they negotiate when staring down the barrel of a gun.

More significantly I suppose, air power. Quite a lot of it.

Israel returned Sinai to Egypt for peace, made peace with Jordan andppullwd out of Gaza.

That's not evidence of any commitment on the part of Israel for peace. Israel simply reduced the threat on its borders by coming to an arrangement with a couple of US stooge dictatorships with no commitment to justice.

That didn't in any way reduce Israel's hostile and aggressive military operations in the region. After coming to an agreement with the US backed dictator Sadat and handing back Sinai, which they had been illegally occupying, Israel then went on to attack and invade Lebanon where they stayed and occupied, illegally, before being eventually driven out by Hezbollah.

Israel is in a constant state of war attacking whoever they please whenever they please, this year they have attacked Syria when both the US and UK governments weren't able to do so because of public opposition.

And I find you citing Israeli withdrawal from Gaza as an example of Israel wanting peace particularly grotesque. Gaza has 1.64 million people crammed into 360km2, its land and sea borders are sealed by Israel which controls every single item and person that goes in and out, it is in effect a huge concentration camp made up of people who have been driven from their land, most rely on UN assistance to eat.

Israel did [i]officially[/i] withdraw from Gaza but that means very little, I would compare it to a jailer not standing in the cell with his prisoners. Israeli "withdrawal" in reality means that they can, and do, bomb and invade Gaza at will, in the certain knowledge that it is Palestinians that will be dying and not Israelis.

None of this provides evidence that Israel wants peace.

I have to agree with many of the things said by ernie_lynch (OMG).

Since the Oslo accords more and more settlements have been added by consecutive governments, in a cynical attempt to squeeze any hope out of the Palestinians, totally not in the spirit of those accords. What response do we expect? You don't need to be a rocket scientist (too many of those at the moment) to realize that our actions only make the Palestinians hate us. I totally agree with your comments on Gaza, not that I have any sympathy for Hamas.

I am now sitting here with Ashraf, from East Jerusalem, and who would be stateless if he didn't have a US passport. Neither of us see a solution, and we are both depressed. Whatever happens, we will still be friends, and treat each other as human beings, and we are not alone. It's a small start, but you have to start somewhere.

simply stunned by some of the views on here...

Let's not forget what Israel did to the Lebanon not so long ago.

Lets not forget what we did in Iraq & Afghanistan + the weapons we sell

We have no right to lecture Israelis when we put up with our lot.

Re Gaza. Israel had to extract Israelis unwilling to leave and physically remove them. They also had to dig up their cemeteries and re-bury their dead. Hardly an easy excercise and not done as a pr stunt. Gaza must be a hellish existence under Hamas. Lets not forget Hamas clashed with Fattah and killed 118 including throwing people from roof tops. When Israel withdrew, were they meant to leave an open border for such psychos to come into Israel?

Re Lebanon, the same conflict kicked off by Hizbollah ambushing a patrol on the Israeli side of the fence killing 3 soldiers and abducted 2 who were subsequently killed there or shortly afterwards, not that their families were to find out for years believing they may still have been alive.

Seems like lots of criticism of Israel some of which merited but seems to me Israel singled out for special attention but the endless of rockets etc seldom deemed newsworthy until Israel responds.

ctk - Member

Lets not forget what we did in Iraq & Afghanistan + the weapons we sell

We have no right to lecture Israelis when we put up with our lot.

And lets not forget that "we" shamefully support Israel when we are quick top condemn the Palestinians. I assume "we" in the context which you've used it means the UK government.

BTW what's your position on the former Apartheid regime in South Africa, were "we" right to condemn it ? Or did we have no right to lecture to them ?

To some, the crux of the matter:

"if the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel."

What nim said.

The Israelis feel threatened and so are prone to getting their retaliation in first. If all the Arab states surrounding them were to renounce anti-Israel violence then that would be the best first step to peace in the area.

You mean if there was no more US government foreign aid to Israel there would be no Israel. It's strange that a country should be dependent on government handouts from a country which doesn't believe in big government or government interference.

Personally I would welcome no more Israel and in its place a democratic secular Palestine where your right to a home wasn't based on what God allegedly promised someone 3,000 years ago.

If all the Arab states surrounding them were to renounce anti-Israel violence then that would be the best first step to peace in the area.

An immediate end to the building of illegal settlements, the immediate dismantling of all the existing ones, and an end to the apartheid and degrading inhumane treatment of Palestinians would be a much better first step to peace.

BTW:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/israeli-minister-agrees-ahmadinejad-never-said-israel-must-be-wiped-off-the-map/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

See also:

http://www.juancole.com/2006/08/ahmadinejad-we-are-not-threat-to-any.html

Kayhan reports that [Pers.] Ahmadinejad said, “Iran is not a threat to any country, and is not in any way a people of intimidation and aggression.” He described Iranians as people of peace and civilization. He said that Iran does not even pose a threat to Israel, and wants to deal with the problem there peacefully, through elections:
“Weapons research is in no way part of Iran’s program. Even with regard to the Zionist regime, our path to a solution is elections.”

But carry on believing the propaganda that he said he wants to 'wipe Israel off the map' if you like.

compliance with UN resolutions and a return to internationally recognised borders
Stop breaking the law

Israel had to extract Israelis unwilling to leave and physically remove them. They also had to dig up their cemeteries and re-bury their dead

The Israelis feel threatened and so are prone to getting their retaliation in first. If all the Arab states surrounding them were to renounce anti-Israel violence then that would be the best first step to peace in the area.

Grum, I said Arab states. Iran isn't Arab. They are Persian and no, I never for a minute believed that was what had been said.

A lot of the very wealthy Arab states could easily put an end to Palestinian poverty however it suits their political ends to keep the Palestinians as an oppressed minority.

ctk - Member
Lets not forget what we did in Iraq & Afghanistan + the weapons we sell

We have no right to lecture Israelis when we put up with our lot.

And lets not forget that "we" shamefully support Israel when we are quick top condemn the Palestinians. I assume "we" in the context which you've used it means the UK government.

BTW what's your position on the former Apartheid regime in South Africa, were "we" right to condemn it ? Or did we have no right to lecture to them ?

Yes you are right I have put together those two sentences in a manner that makes no sense at all.

ctk - Member
Lets not forget what we(UK govt) did in Iraq & Afghanistan + the weapons we(UK govt) sell

We(good people of UK) have no right to lecture Israelis when we(good people of UK) put up with our lot(UK govt)

You're example of SA is a good one. Of course it was right to condemn the apartheid regime and it would be right if the UK government condemned the Israel governments actions in the Gaza strip.

Not one sided, just trying to put across points that are overlooked

And the following invasion and bombing campaign - was once again a collective punishment.

Not one sided, just trying to put across points that are overlooked

I dont see much balance from some of the other posts on here and there's ample criticism of Israel without me adding to it.

Gaza must be a hellish existence under Hamas

It's not Hamas that is starving and bombing Gaza, in case you hadn't noticed. You've raised "blame the victim" to a whole new level.

Gaza is being bombed because Hamas is firing rockets into Israel. If they wanted to stop the bombing they could stop firing rockets. The blame for the Gaza civilian plight lies squarely with the Hamas leadership.

So Hamas fire at nuclear reactor... Should Israel just accept that ?

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/09/breaking-hamas-rockets-target-israels-nuke-research-facility/

Home made rockets I think not !

But I guess you lot think that's acceptable !

Agreed, it's the person on the street that suffers. Hamas are a terrorist organisation, doubt anyone here would care for them as their government.

unfitgeezer - Member

simply stunned by some of the views on here...

I'm stunned that you're stunned. The views expressed are hardly mad, out-there, left-field, out-of-kilter stuff, are they?

A lot of people look at the disproportionately aggressive behaviour of the Israeli state and despair. I don't think many people would defend Hamas (or any similar group), but I think most people have an innate sense of whats fair and right, and can therefore empathise with the conditions that the Palestinians are being forced to live in. They look to how they would feel, forced to endure something similar, and conclude, perfectly reasonably, that its just plain wrong.

I think an added element to this is that you would expect a degree of sensitivity to this from a nation of people that have endured such horrendous persecution themselves. When in reality, the opposite seems to be the case. Which is pretty depressing in itself

Gaza is being bombed because Hamas is firing rockets into Israel.

That's simply not true. It's the old lie which the Israeli government trots out every time they attack Gaza. They begin military action against Gaza by bombing it, the Gazians respond by firing rockets at Israel, and Israel says "we're only bombing Gaza because they are firing rockets at us".

Israel originally claimed that military operations against Gaza, or Hamas as they prefer to say, was in response to the murder of 3 Israeli teenagers, that was only a few days ago, now they are saying that it is in response to rockets. They are liars.

EDIT : BTW despite being quick to bomb Gaza in their collective punishment of the Palestinians, the three teenagers were murdered in the West Bank, not Gaza.

That's simply not true. It's the old lie which the Israeli government trots out every time they attack Gaza

Well, it worked pretty well when they trotted out the same lie over Lebanon.