[Closed] How come UN resolutions and the Geneva Convention don't apply to Israel?

unfitgeezer - Member

Murdering children...move them to a safe place...cant do that cos hamas hide out in the schools...fact

How about a safe place like a UN compound? Oh hang on...

To answer the OP:

a) They do, but they don't give a shit because...

b) They're mates with the US who have enough power to make these problems go away so as a result...

c) No one has the balls to actually sort them out.

Welcome to the depressing world of geopolitics and vested interests.

Slightly OT - Can someone post a link to the really rather clever thread where a forumite told a story of his allotment being messed with and his reaction to it?

I won't spoil the ending, but I think it's worth a read.

More on topic - the Jews were persecuted and bullied for years. Now it seems they have become more the bully in response.....

Public opinion in the world is - and has been for a while - moving away from Israel.
There'll come a tipping point when they'll change their ways, its hard to see it right now but I hope that they'll go the way South Africa had to and find a different way to co-exist.
I hope to see that but wouldn't hold my breath waiting, the onus is on Israel to make it happen and for the rest of us to make them make it happen.

Easier said than done to negotiate peace with a party who wants to destroy you.

Funny how this never makes the UK press until Israel has had enough and reacts to the hundreds of rockets from Gaza.
UN is deafeningly silent too.

Also no one mentions the great big effing wall by Gaza built by Egypt, only the Israeli wall gets spoken about.

Easier said than done to negotiate peace with a party who wants to destroy you.

Your enemies are the ones that you need to negotiate with. That's how negotiation works.

@gonzy re facebook - the murder of the three teenagers has hardened a lot of attitudes. Tolerence right now is non-existent.

What is happening now was absolutely predictable, it is exactly what the Palestinians who murdered the three teenagers wanted.

@DrJ I find your post quite offensive

I'm not going to contribute anything further.

Exactly , Hamas have no intention of doing so. Just refer to their charter.

There'll come a tipping point when they'll change their ways, its hard to see it right now but I hope that they'll go the way South Africa had to and find a different way to co-exist.

Ironically you have linked South Africa and Israel there, which reminds me of a very good example of how power corrupts.

In the mid 70s (only 30-odd years after the holocaust) there was top level government collusion on nuclear weapons between these two pariah states. This despite the fact that Vorster, the south African president, was interned during the second world war for openly showing Nazi sympathies. I don't think he ever rescinded these views.

It seems that expediency can often be relied upon to usurp principles when it comes to power and wealth.......

Exactly , Hamas have no intention of doing so. Just refer to their charter.

All that could change overnight if the Israelis offered an honest deal. Bear in mind that Hamas are only popular because of the failure of PLO and Fatah to obtain anything via negotiation. Israel created this situation and could end it if they wanted to.

@DrJ I find your post quite offensive

I'm not going to contribute anything further.

Can't come up with a counter-argument - flounces.

Read up a little more in Hamas before offering such comments. They won't stop until Israel doesn't exist.

And of course it's not as if we have members of the Israeli parliament calling for genocide against the Palestinians and receiving mass public support. Oh...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-lawmakers-call-for-genocide-of-palestinians-gets-thousands-of-facebook-likes/5390230?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=israeli-lawmakers-call-for-genocide-of-palestinians-gets-thousands-of-facebook-likes

Also no one mentions the great big effing wall by Gaza built by Egypt, only the Israeli wall gets spoken about.

IIRC egypt built it on their land with US funding and it is is only 6 miles long and it is to keep terrorists out of egypt rather than to grab land. Perhaps its because it is nothing like the Israel one that no one mentions it.
Shall we discuss the egypt Israel barrier next? at a mere 245 miles?

Hamas are but one group what you need to do is let them see that peace is better than war and then they are less popular with their supporters. Could you see Mc Guiness meeting the queen - being a leader in N ireland? would he have said he would have done this publicly initially

Dont get me wrong they are not helping

As N ireland shows you need the "waring" sides to talk to each other and work together.

This is all very depressing.

As an Israeli Jew living in Israel I would like to make some personal observations about this thread, and about the current situation.

I am not a spokesman for the Israeli government and speak only for myself.

It is very popular to pin labels to people, like "The Israelis", "The Palestinians", etc. This is a gross simplification which just serves to dehumanize both "sides". I work and socialize with Arab friends every day, some of whom are Israeli citizens, and some are Stateless Palestinians. I feel no hatred whatsoever towards Palestinians, Arabs, Moslems, or whoever and refuse to let the current unrest an insanity taint my relationship with them, although others would disagree.

Kidnapping and murdering three Israeli teenagers is wrong, even if I have a strong dislike of the political settler movement from which they came.

Kidnapping and burning alive a 15 year old Palestinian boy is a sickening atrocity.

The people who perpetrated these acts are fuelled by the same hatred, and perversely serve the same goals.

These crimes were not done by "The Israelis", or "The Palestinians", but by bitter and twisted individuals.

The border police who brutally beat the other child whilst in custody were in Israeli uniform, and I hope their punishment will be all the more severe because of it. (Although this may not turn out to be the case).

As for Israel being attacked with rockets from Gaza, any country would defend itself by attacking back, and in the context of war innocent people always suffer. I am sure that those responsible for those attacks are aware of this, and that this poses no serious military threat to Israel. Incidentally, these rockets do sometimes kill Jews and Arabs, and cause significant disruption.

I would suggest that these acts are motivated by the same idiotic desire to perpetuate the hatred and mistrust, and ensure that this mess just goes on ad infinitum.

There are obviously real and deep issues between our peoples, which need addressing in a sane and logical manner, which means putting aside all the point scoring on both sides. Sadly there seems to little chance of this. Certainly not on this forum too.

Paul Friedman

As for Israel being attacked with rockets from Gaza, any country would defend itself by attacking back, and in the context of war innocent people always suffer.

This is true. So ask yourself if a) the response is proportionate and b) if it is likely to bring about peace.

They won't stop until Israel doesn't exist.

The destruction of Israel and its replacement with a democratic Palestine is by far the most morally acceptable solution imo.

There is no justification whatsoever for a British Jew such as Dame Shirley Porter, for example, to own land and/or live in Palestine. Whatever the Germans did in Europe 70 years ago.

I would like Israel to become an unpleasant memory in the dustbin of history, like Apartheid South Africa.

@nim: Maybe read up a bit yourself ...

"With its takeover of Gaza after the 1967 war with Egypt, Israel hunted down secular Palestinian Liberation Organization factions, but dropped the previous Egyptian rulers' harsh restrictions against Islamic activists.[19] In fact, Israel for many years tolerated and at times encouraged Islamic activists and groups as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the PLO and its dominant faction, Fatah

Among the activists benefited was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, who had also formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, a charity recognized by Israel in 1979. Israel allowed the organization to build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza.[19]"

What should they do then ?

Murdering children...move them to a safe place...cant do that cos hamas hide out in the schools...fact

They should stop murdering children. Decades of history tells us that the only workable solution is to negotiate a peaceful settlement.

@DrJ I find your post quite offensive

@jambalaya - I'm sorry you're offended, but you will get over it. These children, killed by those you defend, will not.

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ezrider/Paul

Thanks for an interesting and thoughtful post.

Latest estimate at 43 dead and 300+ injured since Sunday.

Do we think the Palestinian people have learned their collective lesson yet?

Do we think the Palestinian people have learned their collective lesson yet?

Which lesson is that? That they live next door to a bunch of psychopaths? I think they learned that a long time ago. That if they keep quiet in their slums, everything will turn out nice? No, I don't think they have much faith in that.

The Charter identified Hamas as theMuslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[1]

Ideal partners for peace

ernie_lynch - Member

I would like Israel to become an unpleasant memory in the dustbin of history, like Apartheid South Africa.

Are you sure you mean this ? Its a pretty big statement to make.

Do you hate jews ?

Ideal partners for peace

Gee, I wonder why they have popular support...

Ideal partners for peace

You're missing the point. Firstly, Hamas was created with Israel's help. Secondly, if Israel shows an honest approach to negotiation then Hamas' hard line will not have any support. Thirdly, you don't get to choose who you negotiate with.

Sorry - that's three points you missed.

Do you hate jews ?

the classic fall-back - 'oh you disagree that the state of israel is a positive influence in the middle east? you must hate jews'

FFS that is low blow even for here:roll:
Did he hate white people for saying that about South Africa?

No he respects fairness and justice rather than hate anyone.
As for the rest he will be able to articulate his views clearly enough that he does not need my help but he is in no way shape or form a racist or Jew hater 🙄

Do you hate jews ?

Yes of course - anyone who disagrees with Israel is automatically a jew-hater. Jeeez.

Oh... how achingly predictable.

When you lob the anti-semite accusation in, you've pretty much lost the argument.
Doesn't tend to stop the Israeli government though 🙄

So because you don't think Zionism is bloody great, the next thing you'll be painting yellow stars on doors in Prestwich?

unfitgeezer - Member

Do you hate jews ?

Isn't it weird though? You can simultaneously be disappointed that someone made a particular comment, yet amazed it didn't happen sooner.

With regards to Ernie Lynch, the existence of the State of Israeli is largely a product of the Middle East being split up between Britain & France towards the end of the first world war, and the break-up of the British empire.

When the British took the Mandate for Palestine in 1917 they issued the Balfour Declaration in parliament:

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

This means that, like it or not, the State Israel is a fact, and is a historical legacy inherited by those alive in the region today.

Working on the basis of this inherited legacy, we need to find a sane way to resolve our differences. It is a fact that Israel is militarily far stronger than the Palestinians, but this does not absolve us from responsibility for our actions. Clearly the current trends are not conducive to a sane outcome.

There is clearly no military solution to the Israeli/Palestinian issue. Both sides are here to stay, and need to find a way which would be acceptable for all. This cannot happen until Israeli society realizes that they are going to have to make major concessions. There is no consensus about the nature of the state or its borders.

As far as I can see, all those on both sides who perpetrate the hatred and violence have the same ends. Clearly this violent path is not and cannot achieve anything other than to guarantee an endless spiral into oblivion.

I don't think that an act of genocide against either party would be a solution. It has been tried before in history, and it didn't go well.

With regards to any Hamas charter, or indeed, peace agreement in existence, words are cheap.

Important not to forget how and why Israel was founded. A war-weary Great Britain was threatened with a campaign of terrorism conducted by Zionist terrorists.

We gave Palestine away to protect ourselves and since then have largely turned a blind eye to the suffering of Palestinians caused by an increasingly bold and greedy Israeli state. Israel is a nation founded on extremism and terrorism and has used the anti-Semitic actions of others to justify its own use of genocide.

As already said though there are a majority of Israelis (and non-Israeli Jews too) who are not supportive of the actions of the Israeli government. Unfortunately their is a very powerful element of the Israeli populace who are not prepared to take a reasonable, tolerant, cooperative or just plain just view. Unfortunately they are supported by a pro-Israeli group in the United States, who sanction any action by Israel - no matter how extreme.

re facebook - the murder of the three teenagers has hardened a lot of attitudes. Tolerence right now is non-existent.
What is happening now was absolutely predictable, it is exactly what the Palestinians who murdered the three teenagers wanted.

@ jambalaya - If you bothered to read what I had actually posted you would have noticed that what I had posted about the genocide of every Palestinian was made by a top Israeli politician and not some random member of the public….
So you’re saying that the Israelis were very fair and tolerant of the Palestinians up until this point?
Yeah right!! So tolerant that they see fit to hand out beatings, arrest small children for no apparent reason and if you so much as look at them they demolish your house and kill members of your family.
And yet again you seem to be utterly adamant that the 3 boys were killed by Palestinians…how do you know this to be fact?!
Did you see it?! Has a Palestinian admitted to it?! Or maybe you have that war criminal Netanyahu on speed dial and he’s told you it was the Palestinians so it must be true...
This is what that war criminal Netanyahu tweeted:

Vengeance for the blood of a small child, Satan has not yet created. Neither has vengeance for the blood of 3 pure youths who were on their way home to their parents who will not see them anymore. Hamas is responsible and Hamas will pay. May the memories of the 3 boys be blessed.

The border police who brutally beat the other child whilst in custody were in Israeli uniform, and I hope their punishment will be all the more severe because of it. (Although this may not turn out to be the case).

This means that, like it or not, the State Israel is a fact

As far as I can see, all those on both sides who perpetrate the hatred and violence have the same ends. Clearly this violent path is not and cannot achieve anything other than to guarantee an endless spiral into oblivion.

I also agree the international community ,the US in particular, turn a blind eye to what Israel does. No other nation is able to act like this and still be considered a partner in the international community

No other nation is able to act like this and still be considered a partner in the international community

be careful JY...you'll be accused of being an anti-semite next

you lot are allowed your opinions which is great apart from you are all wrong but that's my point of view...

You only know what you see in the media...FACT ! Or do you have some other great knowledge ? No...

This means that, like it or not, the State Israel is a fact, and is a historical legacy inherited by those alive in the region today.

Working on the basis of this inherited legacy,

EZrider - you mention that the Balfour Declaration was issued to facilitate this which i am sure that your government would have had to swear to abide by...but has since decided to give it a big F-You!!

You only know what you see in the media...FACT ! Or do you have some other great knowledge ? No...

and where do you get your information from?

Important not to forget how and why Israel was founded. A war-weary Great Britain was threatened with a campaign of terrorism conducted by Zionist terrorists.

I think that the term "Zionist" is hugely problematic, as the meaning of the word differs hugely depending on the views of those using it. Even amongst the hugely divided Jewish Israeli population, the word has totally differing connotations. In anti-Israeli and /or antisemitic usage it refers to all Israelis or sometimes all Jews, and resembles facism.

Israel was founded on Zionist ideology (Socialist zionist ideology), and just as with all ideologies, where facts on the ground contradicted that ideology, then force and psychological denial was used to make the facts on the ground fit the ideology.

Today, long after the creation of the State of Israel, the need for that state building ideology has faded, and the current carriers of the "Zionist" banner tend to be right wing pro-settlement groups, who often have scant regard for the rule of law, can sometimes be racists, and have lots of political leverage in Israeli politics. The rest of the Israeli population would understand the term "zionism" to be connected to their history lessons about the creation of the State of Israel from school, and a general acceptance of their right to exist in an independent state.

Israel & Palestine are clearly unable to resolve their differences by themselves, and I would urge the other nations to help both sides to see reason, and see the benefits mutual respect.

I can't see this happening though.

and where do you get your information from?

Try reading some Israeli papers...

EZrider - Member

Israel & Palestine are clearly unable to resolve their differences by themselves, and I would urge the other nations to help both sides to see reason,

What, you mean like UN resolutions and that?

Maybe the solution is to build a big wall between the two. (actually between them, this time)

You only know what you see in the media

i try not to read into what western media reports on this as it is biased in Israel's favour...so we see only what the media and the Israeli/American/British government wants us to see...example - the BBC reported to say that the 3 Israeli boys were murdered but the 15 year old Palestinian merely died.
this is the same media that went to great lengths to identify the killers of Lee Rigby as Muslims...not 2 nut jobs who happened to be muslim and by the same token the muslim girl who was stabbed to death because of her religious attire in Colchester was referred to as a Saudi Arabian and not as a Muslim who had been murdered...if they catch the guy i seriously doubt they are going to report that she was killed by a Christian...the 2 nutcases were classed as Muslim terrorists for what they did...do you think the killer of the girl in Colchester will be treated as a Christian terrorist??

Or do you have some other great knowledge ?

Try reading some Israeli papers...

You only know what you see in the media...FACT

Try reading some Israeli papers...

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