The UN, human rights watch and I imagine, most palestinians living in the Gaza strip still consider them an occupying power
Actually @scaled. If you looked at a map of Gaza 10 years 5/10 years ago, you would find that Israel Occupied it. They've since dismantled the settlements in Gaza and moved out. Did it help bring peace? - Hamas are now more aggressive than ever.
When are they going to remove ALL of the illegal settlements, stop bulldozing homes and denying people water? Might be a start for achieving peace.
I'm waiting for them to blow up the homes of the youths arrested for the murder of the Palestinian lad just now. I suspect I may be in for a long wait ...
When are they going to remove ALL of the illegal settlements, stop bulldozing homes and denying people water? Might be a start for achieving peace.
And not just peace in Palestine. If the US had been even-handed in its treatment of the Palestinians, I suspect Al Qaeda would have trouble finding volunteers to stuff envelopes, let alone blow themselves up.
There is no credible alternative theory.
As I said the kidnap and murder was designed by the [s]Palestinians[/s] Israeli's to create a military conflict. The Isreali's have the more powerful military so the consequences are predictable.
FTFY. Much more credible this way.
When are they going to remove ALL of the illegal settlements, stop bulldozing homes and denying people water? Might be a start for achieving peace.
Israeli operation to as an excuse to 'overreact' and start an orchestrated chain of events leading to the occupation and eventual full Jewish settlement of both Gaza and the West Bank. There would then be no more houses to bulldoze or land to grab. I have no doubt Hamas would also create their own 'martyrs' if it was advantageous to their cause.
I suspect I may be in for a long wait
you would have a long wait for them to knock them unconscious then beta them senseless never mind do a [ illegal] "collective punishment" on their family.
Its a ****ing mess there and no mistake
Israeli solution is to permanently keep them on their knees with intermittent invading to kick the shit out of them when they are on their knees. it will never lead to peace though it may be maintained permanently
I'm not confused the world is confused as always the media portrays the Israelis as the bad guys...whats new about that...
That's the opposite of the truth. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28222613
Hamas are firing ineffectual rockets killing no-one, and Israel - a military superpower - is using jet fighters to murder school children. Do you think the BBC headline is fair and balanced?
ransos - MemberI'm not confused the world is confused as always the media portrays the Israelis as the bad guys...whats new about that...
That's the opposite of the truth. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28222613
Hamas are firing ineffectual rockets killing no-one, and Israel - a military superpower - is using jet fighters to murder school children. Do you think the BBC headline is fair and balanced?
What should they do then ?
Murdering children...move them to a safe place...cant do that cos hamas hide out in the schools...fact
What should they do then ?
Negotiate a fair peace agreement. End of conflict. Simple.
unfitgeezer - MemberMurdering children...move them to a safe place...cant do that cos hamas hide out in the schools...fact
How about a safe place like a UN compound? Oh hang on...
To answer the OP:
a) They do, but they don't give a shit because...
b) They're mates with the US who have enough power to make these problems go away so as a result...
c) No one has the balls to actually sort them out.
Welcome to the depressing world of geopolitics and vested interests.
Slightly OT - Can someone post a link to the really rather clever thread where a forumite told a story of his allotment being messed with and his reaction to it?
I won't spoil the ending, but I think it's worth a read.
More on topic - the Jews were persecuted and bullied for years. Now it seems they have become more the bully in response.....
Public opinion in the world is - and has been for a while - moving away from Israel.
There'll come a tipping point when they'll change their ways, its hard to see it right now but I hope that they'll go the way South Africa had to and find a different way to co-exist.
I hope to see that but wouldn't hold my breath waiting, the onus is on Israel to make it happen and for the rest of us to make them make it happen.
Easier said than done to negotiate peace with a party who wants to destroy you.
Funny how this never makes the UK press until Israel has had enough and reacts to the hundreds of rockets from Gaza.
UN is deafeningly silent too.
Also no one mentions the great big effing wall by Gaza built by Egypt, only the Israeli wall gets spoken about.
Easier said than done to negotiate peace with a party who wants to destroy you.
Your enemies are the ones that you need to negotiate with. That's how negotiation works.
@gonzy re facebook - the murder of the three teenagers has hardened a lot of attitudes. Tolerence right now is non-existent.
What is happening now was absolutely predictable, it is exactly what the Palestinians who murdered the three teenagers wanted.
@DrJ I find your post quite offensive
I'm not going to contribute anything further.
Exactly , Hamas have no intention of doing so. Just refer to their charter.
There'll come a tipping point when they'll change their ways, its hard to see it right now but I hope that they'll go the way South Africa had to and find a different way to co-exist.
Ironically you have linked South Africa and Israel there, which reminds me of a very good example of how power corrupts.
In the mid 70s (only 30-odd years after the holocaust) there was top level government collusion on nuclear weapons between these two pariah states. This despite the fact that Vorster, the south African president, was interned during the second world war for openly showing Nazi sympathies. I don't think he ever rescinded these views.
It seems that expediency can often be relied upon to usurp principles when it comes to power and wealth.......
Exactly , Hamas have no intention of doing so. Just refer to their charter.
All that could change overnight if the Israelis offered an honest deal. Bear in mind that Hamas are only popular because of the failure of PLO and Fatah to obtain anything via negotiation. Israel created this situation and could end it if they wanted to.
@DrJ I find your post quite offensiveI'm not going to contribute anything further.
Can't come up with a counter-argument - flounces.
Read up a little more in Hamas before offering such comments. They won't stop until Israel doesn't exist.
And of course it's not as if we have members of the Israeli parliament calling for genocide against the Palestinians and receiving mass public support. Oh...
Also no one mentions the great big effing wall by Gaza built by Egypt, only the Israeli wall gets spoken about.
IIRC egypt built it on their land with US funding and it is is only 6 miles long and it is to keep terrorists out of egypt rather than to grab land. Perhaps its because it is nothing like the Israel one that no one mentions it.
Shall we discuss the egypt Israel barrier next? at a mere 245 miles?
Hamas are but one group what you need to do is let them see that peace is better than war and then they are less popular with their supporters. Could you see Mc Guiness meeting the queen - being a leader in N ireland? would he have said he would have done this publicly initially
Dont get me wrong they are not helping
As N ireland shows you need the "waring" sides to talk to each other and work together.
This is all very depressing.
As an Israeli Jew living in Israel I would like to make some personal observations about this thread, and about the current situation.
I am not a spokesman for the Israeli government and speak only for myself.
It is very popular to pin labels to people, like "The Israelis", "The Palestinians", etc. This is a gross simplification which just serves to dehumanize both "sides". I work and socialize with Arab friends every day, some of whom are Israeli citizens, and some are Stateless Palestinians. I feel no hatred whatsoever towards Palestinians, Arabs, Moslems, or whoever and refuse to let the current unrest an insanity taint my relationship with them, although others would disagree.
Kidnapping and murdering three Israeli teenagers is wrong, even if I have a strong dislike of the political settler movement from which they came.
Kidnapping and burning alive a 15 year old Palestinian boy is a sickening atrocity.
The people who perpetrated these acts are fuelled by the same hatred, and perversely serve the same goals.
These crimes were not done by "The Israelis", or "The Palestinians", but by bitter and twisted individuals.
The border police who brutally beat the other child whilst in custody were in Israeli uniform, and I hope their punishment will be all the more severe because of it. (Although this may not turn out to be the case).
As for Israel being attacked with rockets from Gaza, any country would defend itself by attacking back, and in the context of war innocent people always suffer. I am sure that those responsible for those attacks are aware of this, and that this poses no serious military threat to Israel. Incidentally, these rockets do sometimes kill Jews and Arabs, and cause significant disruption.
I would suggest that these acts are motivated by the same idiotic desire to perpetuate the hatred and mistrust, and ensure that this mess just goes on ad infinitum.
There are obviously real and deep issues between our peoples, which need addressing in a sane and logical manner, which means putting aside all the point scoring on both sides. Sadly there seems to little chance of this. Certainly not on this forum too.
Paul Friedman
As for Israel being attacked with rockets from Gaza, any country would defend itself by attacking back, and in the context of war innocent people always suffer.
This is true. So ask yourself if a) the response is proportionate and b) if it is likely to bring about peace.
They won't stop until Israel doesn't exist.
The destruction of Israel and its replacement with a democratic Palestine is by far the most morally acceptable solution imo.
There is no justification whatsoever for a British Jew such as Dame Shirley Porter, for example, to own land and/or live in Palestine. Whatever the Germans did in Europe 70 years ago.
I would like Israel to become an unpleasant memory in the dustbin of history, like Apartheid South Africa.
@nim: Maybe read up a bit yourself ...
"With its takeover of Gaza after the 1967 war with Egypt, Israel hunted down secular Palestinian Liberation Organization factions, but dropped the previous Egyptian rulers' harsh restrictions against Islamic activists.[19] In fact, Israel for many years tolerated and at times encouraged Islamic activists and groups as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the PLO and its dominant faction, Fatah
Among the activists benefited was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, who had also formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, a charity recognized by Israel in 1979. Israel allowed the organization to build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza.[19]"
What should they do then ?Murdering children...move them to a safe place...cant do that cos hamas hide out in the schools...fact
They should stop murdering children. Decades of history tells us that the only workable solution is to negotiate a peaceful settlement.
@DrJ I find your post quite offensive
@jambalaya - I'm sorry you're offended, but you will get over it. These children, killed by those you defend, will not.
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ezrider/Paul
Thanks for an interesting and thoughtful post.
Latest estimate at 43 dead and 300+ injured since Sunday.
Do we think the Palestinian people have learned their collective lesson yet?
Do we think the Palestinian people have learned their collective lesson yet?
Which lesson is that? That they live next door to a bunch of psychopaths? I think they learned that a long time ago. That if they keep quiet in their slums, everything will turn out nice? No, I don't think they have much faith in that.
The Charter identified Hamas as theMuslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[1]
Ideal partners for peace
ernie_lynch - MemberI would like Israel to become an unpleasant memory in the dustbin of history, like Apartheid South Africa.
Are you sure you mean this ? Its a pretty big statement to make.
Do you hate jews ?
Ideal partners for peace
Gee, I wonder why they have popular support...
Ideal partners for peace
You're missing the point. Firstly, Hamas was created with Israel's help. Secondly, if Israel shows an honest approach to negotiation then Hamas' hard line will not have any support. Thirdly, you don't get to choose who you negotiate with.
Sorry - that's three points you missed.
Do you hate jews ?
the classic fall-back - 'oh you disagree that the state of israel is a positive influence in the middle east? you must hate jews'
FFS that is low blow even for here:roll:
Did he hate white people for saying that about South Africa?
No he respects fairness and justice rather than hate anyone.
As for the rest he will be able to articulate his views clearly enough that he does not need my help but he is in no way shape or form a racist or Jew hater 🙄
Do you hate jews ?
Yes of course - anyone who disagrees with Israel is automatically a jew-hater. Jeeez.
Oh... how achingly predictable.
When you lob the anti-semite accusation in, you've pretty much lost the argument.
Doesn't tend to stop the Israeli government though 🙄
So because you don't think Zionism is bloody great, the next thing you'll be painting yellow stars on doors in Prestwich?
unfitgeezer - MemberDo you hate jews ?
Isn't it weird though? You can simultaneously be disappointed that someone made a particular comment, yet amazed it didn't happen sooner.
With regards to Ernie Lynch, the existence of the State of Israeli is largely a product of the Middle East being split up between Britain & France towards the end of the first world war, and the break-up of the British empire.
When the British took the Mandate for Palestine in 1917 they issued the Balfour Declaration in parliament:
His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
In the following years the Jewish population set up state-like institutions, meaning that when the British abandoned the area in 1848, Israel already had a state framework in place.
This means that, like it or not, the State Israel is a fact, and is a historical legacy inherited by those alive in the region today.
Working on the basis of this inherited legacy, we need to find a sane way to resolve our differences. It is a fact that Israel is militarily far stronger than the Palestinians, but this does not absolve us from responsibility for our actions. Clearly the current trends are not conducive to a sane outcome.
There is clearly no military solution to the Israeli/Palestinian issue. Both sides are here to stay, and need to find a way which would be acceptable for all. This cannot happen until Israeli society realizes that they are going to have to make major concessions. There is no consensus about the nature of the state or its borders.
As far as I can see, all those on both sides who perpetrate the hatred and violence have the same ends. Clearly this violent path is not and cannot achieve anything other than to guarantee an endless spiral into oblivion.
I don't think that an act of genocide against either party would be a solution. It has been tried before in history, and it didn't go well.
With regards to any Hamas charter, or indeed, peace agreement in existence, words are cheap.
Important not to forget how and why Israel was founded. A war-weary Great Britain was threatened with a campaign of terrorism conducted by Zionist terrorists.
We gave Palestine away to protect ourselves and since then have largely turned a blind eye to the suffering of Palestinians caused by an increasingly bold and greedy Israeli state. Israel is a nation founded on extremism and terrorism and has used the anti-Semitic actions of others to justify its own use of genocide.
As already said though there are a majority of Israelis (and non-Israeli Jews too) who are not supportive of the actions of the Israeli government. Unfortunately their is a very powerful element of the Israeli populace who are not prepared to take a reasonable, tolerant, cooperative or just plain just view. Unfortunately they are supported by a pro-Israeli group in the United States, who sanction any action by Israel - no matter how extreme.
re facebook - the murder of the three teenagers has hardened a lot of attitudes. Tolerence right now is non-existent.
What is happening now was absolutely predictable, it is exactly what the Palestinians who murdered the three teenagers wanted.
@ jambalaya - If you bothered to read what I had actually posted you would have noticed that what I had posted about the genocide of every Palestinian was made by a top Israeli politician and not some random member of the public….
So you’re saying that the Israelis were very fair and tolerant of the Palestinians up until this point?
Yeah right!! So tolerant that they see fit to hand out beatings, arrest small children for no apparent reason and if you so much as look at them they demolish your house and kill members of your family.
And yet again you seem to be utterly adamant that the 3 boys were killed by Palestinians…how do you know this to be fact?!
Did you see it?! Has a Palestinian admitted to it?! Or maybe you have that war criminal Netanyahu on speed dial and he’s told you it was the Palestinians so it must be true...
This is what that war criminal Netanyahu tweeted:
Vengeance for the blood of a small child, Satan has not yet created. Neither has vengeance for the blood of 3 pure youths who were on their way home to their parents who will not see them anymore. Hamas is responsible and Hamas will pay. May the memories of the 3 boys be blessed.
The border police who brutally beat the other child whilst in custody were in Israeli uniform, and I hope their punishment will be all the more severe because of it. (Although this may not turn out to be the case).
@EZrider – you mean like the captain who killed Iman Al Hams??
This means that, like it or not, the State Israel is a fact
why do you think we need a history lesson or that pointing out to us?
As far as I can see, all those on both sides who perpetrate the hatred and violence have the same ends. Clearly this violent path is not and cannot achieve anything other than to guarantee an endless spiral into oblivion.
I dont disagree
I also agree the international community ,the US in particular, turn a blind eye to what Israel does. No other nation is able to act like this and still be considered a partner in the international community
No other nation is able to act like this and still be considered a partner in the international community
be careful JY...you'll be accused of being an anti-semite next
you lot are allowed your opinions which is great apart from you are all wrong but that's my point of view...
You only know what you see in the media...FACT ! Or do you have some other great knowledge ? No...
This means that, like it or not, the State Israel is a fact, and is a historical legacy inherited by those alive in the region today.Working on the basis of this inherited legacy,
inherited legacy?! from who?! the Palestinians?! its their land that you were given by the British government...and i seriously doubt they were happy with this...
EZrider - you mention that the Balfour Declaration was issued to facilitate this which i am sure that your government would have had to swear to abide by...but has since decided to give it a big F-You!!
You only know what you see in the media...FACT ! Or do you have some other great knowledge ? No...
and where do you get your information from?
Important not to forget how and why Israel was founded. A war-weary Great Britain was threatened with a campaign of terrorism conducted by Zionist terrorists.
The zionist terrorists you mention were the LEHI and EZEL, both fairly violent right wing type groups. The left wing zionsit Hagana was generally opposed to to those groups, and sometimes acted against them.
I think that the term "Zionist" is hugely problematic, as the meaning of the word differs hugely depending on the views of those using it. Even amongst the hugely divided Jewish Israeli population, the word has totally differing connotations. In anti-Israeli and /or antisemitic usage it refers to all Israelis or sometimes all Jews, and resembles facism.
Israel was founded on Zionist ideology (Socialist zionist ideology), and just as with all ideologies, where facts on the ground contradicted that ideology, then force and psychological denial was used to make the facts on the ground fit the ideology.
Today, long after the creation of the State of Israel, the need for that state building ideology has faded, and the current carriers of the "Zionist" banner tend to be right wing pro-settlement groups, who often have scant regard for the rule of law, can sometimes be racists, and have lots of political leverage in Israeli politics. The rest of the Israeli population would understand the term "zionism" to be connected to their history lessons about the creation of the State of Israel from school, and a general acceptance of their right to exist in an independent state.
Israel & Palestine are clearly unable to resolve their differences by themselves, and I would urge the other nations to help both sides to see reason, and see the benefits mutual respect.
I can't see this happening though.
and where do you get your information from?
Try reading some Israeli papers...
EZrider - MemberIsrael & Palestine are clearly unable to resolve their differences by themselves, and I would urge the other nations to help both sides to see reason,
What, you mean like UN resolutions and that?
Maybe the solution is to build a big wall between the two. (actually between them, this time)
You only know what you see in the mediaOr do you have some other great knowledge ?
i try not to read into what western media reports on this as it is biased in Israel's favour...so we see only what the media and the Israeli/American/British government wants us to see...example - the BBC reported to say that the 3 Israeli boys were murdered but the 15 year old Palestinian merely died.
this is the same media that went to great lengths to identify the killers of Lee Rigby as Muslims...not 2 nut jobs who happened to be muslim and by the same token the muslim girl who was stabbed to death because of her religious attire in Colchester was referred to as a Saudi Arabian and not as a Muslim who had been murdered...if they catch the guy i seriously doubt they are going to report that she was killed by a Christian...the 2 nutcases were classed as Muslim terrorists for what they did...do you think the killer of the girl in Colchester will be treated as a Christian terrorist??
no i look at other sources for the news
Try reading some Israeli papers...
because they are soooo unbiased arent they(?)
You only know what you see in the media...FACT
Try reading some Israeli papers...
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^ Nicely Done JY 😀
Given what's going on behind the scenes, Israel should be boycotted until they sort their apartheid like treatment of Palestinians
Lets imagine that Wales was the holy land and the Queen was building a fortified wall to keep the Welsh in, whilst taking water from aquifers below Wales for a few of her country homes, reducing the amount of clean water available to the Welsh... whatsmore, the Queen was also imposing strict rules on the transit of Welsh citizens and ensuring limited import of goods. I won't go into too much detail of the aid ship in the Irish sea...
That would suck a bit, huh...
Israel & Palestine are clearly unable to resolve their differences by themselves, and I would urge the other nations to help both sides to see reason, and see the benefits mutual respect.I can't see this happening though.
It was noted that at PMQ's today there wasn't a single mention of whats going on in Israel and Palastine. The conclusion: why would any British politician bother commenting on it? Or any other European leader? No matter what they say, nobody out there is listening anyway. The Americans are the only ones who can get people to the negotiating table. They've done it before.
I won't be holding my breath for that though
Israel & Palestine are clearly unable to resolve their differences by themselves, and I would urge the other nations to help both sides to see reason, and see the benefits mutual respect.
no, i would urge Israel to stop brutalizing the Palestinians, repair all the damage it has done to Palestine, get rid of its nuclear arsenal, acknowledge that as a nation it has become a pariah and is a war criminal, encourage its top politicians and military personnel to be tried as the war criminals that they are, and give back all the land it has stolen from the Palestinians and return to the original borders it was given....only then can we say a step has been made in the right direction...
I can't see this happening though.
i'll agree with you on that bit
What, you mean like UN resolutions and that?
UN resolutions are a cynical tool used by various Governments to score points off each other (Think USA, Russia, China, Israel, UK etc.)
Like I think I said, I can't see that happening because no party is truly prepared to put aside their differences for a common good. If USA, Russia et al could combine in a serious way I think that together they could bash heads together between the Israelis and Palestinians and actually achieve something.
I can not see any of that happening any time soon. Sadly, your big wall solution doesn't work either.
i would urge Israel to stop brutalizing the Palestinians, repair all the damage it has done to Palestine, get rid of its nuclear arsenal, acknowledge that as a nation it has become a pariah and is a war criminal,
war criminal are you insane ! get rid of its nuclear weapons why should they do that ? do expect any other country to do so ?
a lot of hot air being blown about including myself...for that reason Im out...
This being a forum we are all entitled to our views at the end of the day nothing we can do will change this war or any other...if only we lived in a peaceful world it would be great...I don't agree with senseless killing at any level and because of the extremists (on both sides) its making it even harder to negotiate.
Shalom aleikhem
or
salaam alaikum
Im happy with either...
Gonzy,
Whislt we are talking about people having their land stolen. I would mention that My wife's (Jewish) parents were expelled from Egypt in the 1950'a after having all of their property confiscated, their ancestors having lived their since their expulsion from Spain in 1492.
Your demands are unrealistic both sides exist and are not going away.
and give back all the land it has stolen from the Palestinians and return to the original borders it was given....only then can we say a step has been made in the right direction...
These would be the borders drawn up by the British & French after the break-up of the Ottoman empire?
Everyone needs to give up being so righteous and put their differences aside.
hahahahahahaunfitgeezer - Member
and where do you get your information from?
Try reading some Israeli papers...
Everyone needs to give up being so righteous and put their differences aside.
Wholly agree, but due to brainwashing and compulsory military service with the IDF, it'll take an immense shift in values to make that happen, nonetheless, there is hope:
full documentary here:
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Your demands are unrealistic both sides exist and are not going away.
i'm not asking for both sides to go away...what i am asking for is that the one side that has taken more land than it was originally given should give that land back...i think the map above indicates that its far from unreasonable to do so...it wasnt yours to take so give it back
hungry monkey
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im sure you can work it out
Gonzy,
Nobody took what thy were given. The British suggested a partition plan which was rejected. Israel then declared independence, and took what it could. It was wrongly assumed by the Arabs that together with Jordan Iraq, Lebanon etc. It would be trivial to throw us out and take everything. That backfired when we defeated the Arab armies.
None of this changes the need to come to a. Civilized agreement.
Everyone needs to give up being so righteous and put their differences aside.
Unfortunately we cannot right the wrong done centuries ago but we can correct the wrongs being done now and recently
That backfired when we defeated the Arab armies.
Ah might is right then - so you took it by force and any complaint about this is just someone being self righteous.
Any civilised arrangement will inevitably involve the return of the [ majority of the ]stuff you stole and the conversation wont start whilst you continue to land grab and build settlements. Illegal under international law and often against your own law
hahahahahahahahaEZrider - Member
Israel then declared independence, and took what it couldCivilized agreement.
I didn't say might is right. That is what happened.And here we are today.
so you accept that the land taken by force must be returned then?
EDIT: FWIW you seem , given how shitty the situation is on both sides, pretty reasonable on the issue so I am not meaning to sound as combative as it does.
Israel has huge freedom of the press and the govt are often criticised freely. Ha aretz for instance vergesa times of having anti Israeli articles. Hence reading the Israeli press is not such a daft idea.
I don't think Israel has any interest in a settlement. Instability furthers their aims. Which is to take more and more territory, build more and more illegal settlements. The maps above perfectly illustrate this. From an Israelis perspective - why would they negotiate a settlement, they are slowly eating away at what,s left of Palestine. The last time the two sides were at the negotiating table, being prodded by the US (details are a bit hazy, I'm afraid, it was few years ago) and a settlement looked possible, the Israelis bombed some Pleastinian generals, and of coarse it all fell apart. At that point I realised the Israelis had no interest in a negotiated settlement. They'll just keep going, until there's nothing left for the Palstinians to negotiate for. They've done it all along, they've taken all this territory by force, it's been working all this time - why stop now. I don't understand the Palestinian tactics though.
Really? Israel has no interest in peace? Israel returned Sinai to Egypt for peace, made peace with Jordan andppullwd out of Gaza.
Yeah, 2 nation states with significant,well armed and well drilled military forces.
Funny how quickly they negotiate when staring down the barrel of a gun.
More significantly I suppose, air power. Quite a lot of it.
Israel returned Sinai to Egypt for peace, made peace with Jordan andppullwd out of Gaza.
That's not evidence of any commitment on the part of Israel for peace. Israel simply reduced the threat on its borders by coming to an arrangement with a couple of US stooge dictatorships with no commitment to justice.
That didn't in any way reduce Israel's hostile and aggressive military operations in the region. After coming to an agreement with the US backed dictator Sadat and handing back Sinai, which they had been illegally occupying, Israel then went on to attack and invade Lebanon where they stayed and occupied, illegally, before being eventually driven out by Hezbollah.
Israel is in a constant state of war attacking whoever they please whenever they please, this year they have attacked Syria when both the US and UK governments weren't able to do so because of public opposition.
And I find you citing Israeli withdrawal from Gaza as an example of Israel wanting peace particularly grotesque. Gaza has 1.64 million people crammed into 360km2, its land and sea borders are sealed by Israel which controls every single item and person that goes in and out, it is in effect a huge concentration camp made up of people who have been driven from their land, most rely on UN assistance to eat.
Israel did [i]officially[/i] withdraw from Gaza but that means very little, I would compare it to a jailer not standing in the cell with his prisoners. Israeli "withdrawal" in reality means that they can, and do, bomb and invade Gaza at will, in the certain knowledge that it is Palestinians that will be dying and not Israelis.
None of this provides evidence that Israel wants peace.
I have to agree with many of the things said by ernie_lynch (OMG).
Since the Oslo accords more and more settlements have been added by consecutive governments, in a cynical attempt to squeeze any hope out of the Palestinians, totally not in the spirit of those accords. What response do we expect? You don't need to be a rocket scientist (too many of those at the moment) to realize that our actions only make the Palestinians hate us. I totally agree with your comments on Gaza, not that I have any sympathy for Hamas.
I am now sitting here with Ashraf, from East Jerusalem, and who would be stateless if he didn't have a US passport. Neither of us see a solution, and we are both depressed. Whatever happens, we will still be friends, and treat each other as human beings, and we are not alone. It's a small start, but you have to start somewhere.
simply stunned by some of the views on here...
Let's not forget what Israel did to the Lebanon not so long ago.
Lets not forget what we did in Iraq & Afghanistan + the weapons we sell
We have no right to lecture Israelis when we put up with our lot.