What I think happens in Afghanistan has absolutely no bearing on what I think happens in Gaza.
Its not about what you think, its about the proven statistics that show the civilian casualty ratio is similar in both conflicts
So either they're being reckless as to civilian casualties in both, or neither.
Why should Israel risk the lives of their soldiers in special forces raids to try and reduce the casualty figure?
Because murder is wrong. I don't see why that's so hard to grasp.
@IsraelHayomEng: #IAF aborts mission to avoid civilian casualties
http://t.co/dGG5UmLL22
So either they're being reckless as to civilian casualties in both, or neither.
That doesn't follow, but as I said, it's irrelevant, and yet another childish and transparent attempt to change the subject.
And risk political backlash at home if it all goes Bravo Two Zero? Countries always try to reduce their own casualties by using any means at their disposal.
I think the Israelis are being massive idiots because they aren't willing to risk their special forces raids, as they are committing political suicide.
But I can't solely condemn the Israelis for responding, as we've done it ourselves time and time again throughout history. I just really don't buy all this, "it's all teh zionistsss....they're the only barrier to peace" crap....that a lot of you are spouting. Any criticism made, needs to be made equally in regards to both sides.
So Brits killing people in Afghanistan is alright, but Jews killing people is a no no.
Err, no, I didn't say that, but marks for perseverance. As I said, if you want to discuss Afghanistan, that's fine, just not here, where you are just using it as a diversion.
I just really don't buy all this, it's all teh zionistsss....they're the only barrier to peace crap
C'mon Tom - I mean its obvious isn't it - if the Yids pulled back to the green line, then everyone would live happily ever after, and Hamas would stop firing rockets, kidnapping and murdering people overnight!
Countries always try to reduce their own casualties by using any means at their disposal.
The best way for the Israelis to reduce their casualties is probably to stay home - there is a risk that some IDF member will be accidentally run over by a tank, or something, and rather little that anyone will be killed by a Palestinian rocket. That's for the short term. The long term benefits of not showing yourself to be bunch of psychopaths are probably even greater. If peace is actually what you want .....
C'mon Tom - I mean its obvious isn't it - if the Yids pulled back to the green line, then everyone would live happily ever after, and Hamas would stop firing rockets, kidnapping and murdering people overnight!
If the Israelis had done that a long time ago, Hamas wouldn't have received a single vote. The Hamas threat has been created - in more than one meaning of the word - by the Israelis themselves - by their bloodthirsty intransigience, and by their money.
Any criticism made, needs to be made equally in regards to both sides.
Are you claiming the zionists on here have not been doing this?
Some of the palestinians need to alter their methods their MO and some of their policies and actions.
Find a zionist willing to criticise Israel despite numerous challenges FFS one blamed HAMAS for israel killing civilians and said it showed Hamas did not care 😯
It seems that anything which is not a direct criticism of Israel is regarded as irrelevant on this thread.
Israel has flown well over a thousand missions in gaza and the civilian death count is 170+
Don't you think that if they were deliberately targeting civilians that would number would be higher?
I mean, with all their military superiority,, apparently in deliberately targeting civilians they can only manage 1 kill for every five missiles fired! and in such a highly populated area...Maybe the airforce isn't that good after all?! or perhaps more feasibly, most of you haven't stopped to think about it for too long..
considering they are on record as saying "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!".
You need to get a grip Tom, that quote is from what someone said over 1,400 years ago. I'm not sure how literally you are suppose to take it - are the rocks and trees really going to cry out "There is a Jew hiding behind me" ? ffs
Yes it's in the Hamas Charter of 1988 but it's not exactly surprising that they included flowery language which refers to past conflicts when you consider the situation that confronted them.
Furthermore firstly Jews have lived peacefully alongside Muslims for the last 1,400 years since Mohamed first made the comment, and secondly, in 2010 the Hamas leader stated that the 1988 Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant".
I know that your Zionist websites tell you to regurgitate the quote to vilify Hamas but it smacks of desperation on your part. Presumably because Gonzy, a practicing Muslim, has come along and completely shattered your already extremely weak "argument". And without the need to vilify Jews, unlike your frankly disgraceful attempts to vilify Palestinians.
And finally we can of course all play that little game. Here is a quote from the Talmud :
[i]"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew."[/i]
Another choice quote from the Talmud is :
[i]"The souls of non-Jews come from impure spirits and are called pigs"[/i]
Presumably therefore I can make the claim that all Jews are racists. Except I won't because I wouldn't stoop down to your level.
Find a zionist willing to criticise Israel despite numerous challenges FFS one blamed HAMAS for israel killing civilians and said it showed Hamas did not care
That must have mean me. but apparently not just me. also all Telegraph readers, and the Canadian government, and the UK government, and then someone kindly helped me out by saying most of the western world governments hold this view.
Are you claiming the zionists on here have not been doing this?
Some of the palestinians need to alter their methods their MO and some of their policies and actions.
Both sides are exactly 50/50 responsible for the current mess. A lot of the criticism on here of Israel holds up, but what it boils down to is what terms Palestinians will accept for peace and for the moment that's a one state solution that would see Israel dissolved. There won't be peace until they realise that Israel will use its Samson option before that ever happens.
Here's a fairly competent break down of the issues at hand.
Furthermore firstly Jews have lived peacefully alongside Muslims for the last 1,400 years since Mohamed first made the comment, and secondly, in 2010 the Hamas leader stated that the 1988 Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant".
Complete horse crap. There have been peaceful times, yes. But not 1,400 years of peace between Muslims and Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism
and also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_the_Gaza_Strip
They've done a UKIP in that Hamas have softened their views publicly, but I'm fairly certain that in private they won't have.
Well of course there hasn't been uninterrupted peace between Muslims and Jews for the last 1,400 years 🙄
But Muslims and Jews have lived in peace during the period since Mohamed made that comment. Perhaps it's because the rocks and trees forgot to cry out "There is a Jew hiding behind me" ? ffs
And since you still want to play that little game here's some more choice quotes from the Talmud which using your logic proves that all Jews are racists :
[b][i]"Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human."
"Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals."
"It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile."
"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God." [/i][/b]
All from the central text of Judaism.
See how easy it is ?
Tom - You keep quoting the Daily Telegraph as if it's impartial. You are aware of the papers history, I presume? About being run by avowed Zionist Conrad Black? An editorial agenda that has continued under the Barclay Brothers.
Except those quotes have yet to have been placed in an organisations charter (that I know of).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
Still think Palestinians would live peacefully with dirty Jews in the midst?
Except those quotes have yet to have been placed in an organisations charter (that I know of).
Well firstly I imagine that the central text of Judaism is quite "important".
And secondly racism towards non-Jews goes to the very heart of the Zionist state. A Brit has no right to go and live in Israel, unless they are Jewish, which is clearly racist.
Zionist websites? Which ones?
Do you struggle with the internet ?
Seriously, is this really the best that you can come up with ?
nim - MemberZionist websites? Which ones?
Posted 1 minute ago
You really have given up all hope of coming up with any sort of half sensible argument to support Israeli brutality in Gaza, haven't you ?
No just curious for specifics seeing as youve brought it up.
The picture you paint of Hamas as this kind of yeah 'we've said some naughty stuff in our charter but but we dont really mean it' nonsense is disturbing in itself. They dont value life, Palestinian, Israeli or other. Hamas murdered 118 Fatah in Gaza without much thought.
I suppose the military wing of Hezbollah are an equally friendly bunch, just misunderstood.
Well you've certainly painted a picture of Zionists which is kind of "yeah we've said some naughty stuff in our Talmud but we dont really mean it"
How come you can so easy dismiss this ?
[i]"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew."
"The souls of non-Jews come from impure spirits and are called pigs"
"Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human."
"Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals."
"It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile."
"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God." [/i]
How can there be peace with people that believe that nonsense ? Tell me.
Samj the Israeli air force are deliberately targeting civilians homes. They are taking some steps to ensure that are empty hence leaflets text messages and knock on roof hence the low kill rate.But they know full well that the policy will kill more civilians than fighters but they carry on to punish the Palestinians in the hope it will hurt Hammas .
It is politically easier to kill Palestinian civilians than risk their troops . Though their special forces are really shit hot and should be able to cope with targeted strikes .
Ernie. Those quotes cannot be right. Where from, presuming you are not a Hebrew reader referring to ooriginal texts.
https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100714142940AAHjRED
Worth a glance re those nasty 'talmud' quotes, sseems nonsense at best.
I dont have much access to wifi and on a pants phone so yes struggling with thw Internet at present.
However a google search shows them on the Davis Duke website which isn't exactly promising.
David Duke website ? You really are struggling aren't you.
Have a read of this :
[url= https://craignielsen.wordpress.com/tag/racism-and-sexism-in-the-talmud/ ]An Orthodox anti-Zionist Rabbi writes in defense of the Talmud.[/url]
With particular reference to this :
[i]Unfortunately, some individuals in our time have accused the Talmud of advocating racism and unfair treatment of gentiles. They provide short quotations, invariably taken completely out of context, that seem to support their accusations.
In reply to these accusers, we can only remind people that the Talmud contains a vast amount of material; to cover it all takes the brightest scholars a lifetime of study. Although it does contain a small number of statements directed at gentiles, most of the Talmud consists of laws and sharply-stated ethical teachings directed at Jews. For every “anti-gentile” statement the critics can find, there are ten “anti-Jewish” statements. And just as the latter must be studied in context, so too the former.[/i]
You see if Tom wants to cherry pick selected stuff to vilify Palestinians, as he has done with a 1,400 year old quote which speaks of rocks and trees crying out "there is a Jew hiding behind me" then I can do the same with cherry picked selected quotes from the central text of Judaism.
However unlike Tom who attempts to vilify Palestinians I have no interest at all in vilifying Jews. Whatever dodgy stuff the Talmud may contain.
My criticism of Israel's behaviour goes far beyond taking a few old quotes out of context.
In the link I posted, your supposed Talmudic quotes and more are dealt with one by one and at best badly handled or worse don't exist in the Talmud and are fabricated.
I will be putting this to my contacts for my own peace of mind but I suspect the quotes to be twisted or fabricated to cast things that cannot easily be verified in a very bad light indeed.
[quote=ernie_lynch]Well you've certainly painted a picture of Zionists which is kind of "yeah we've said some naughty stuff in our Talmud but we dont really mean it"
How come you can so easy dismiss this ?
Most of those quotes I can only seem to find on what I'll just say are "interesting" websites, primarily either overtly anti-semitic far-right sites or NWO-style sites. I'm struggling to track down any of the passages in English translations of the Talmud.
So, Egyptian brokered ceasefire officially agreed to by Israel - no official decision yet from Hamas, but initial indications that they will reject it
[i]"A ceasefire without reaching an agreement is rejected. In times of war, you don't cease fire and then negotiate," said spokesperson Fawzi Barhum.
[/i]
😯
Most of those quotes I can only seem to find on what I'll just say are "interesting" websites, primarily either overtly anti-semitic far-right sites or NWO-style sites.
You mean an "anti-semitic" website like the one I posted with the link "An Orthodox anti-Zionist Rabbi writes in defense of the Talmud" ? 🙄
And it's interesting that the quote which Tom uses in an attempt to vilify all Palestinians repeatedly appears in shall I just say "interesting" websites, ie, islamophobic anti-Palestinian and right-wing websites.
The double standards of Zionists is staggering. They are quick to condemn others for the very tactics which they use.
No one has vilified Jews on this thread, and yet there have been repeated attempts by Zionist supporters on here to vilify Palestinians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
Still think Palestinians would live peacefully with dirty Jews in the midst?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
Still think the Jews would live peacefully with dirty Palestinians in their midst? This is a truly pathetic argument - even by the low standards of the Israeli apologists in this thread.
quite depressing piece in the indie....
on 28 December 2006, the Israeli human rights organisation B’Tselem reported that 660 Palestinians had been killed in that year alone, most in Gaza, including 141 children; and that since 2000, Israeli forces had killed almost 4,000 Palestinians with 20,000 wounded. But scarcely has there been a single mention of all of this in a single report on the latest slaughter in the Gaza war.
has this been done yet?
[img] 
[/img]
Allan Sørensen @allansorensen72Sderot cinema. Israelis bringing chairs 2 hilltop in sderot 2 watch latest from Gaza. Clapping when blasts are heard.
8:26 PM - 9 Jul 2014
[quote> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
Still think Palestinians would live peacefully with dirty Jews in the midst?
well lets look at what has been reported in the article...arab palestinians massacred some 67 jews after hearing a rumour that muslims were being massacred by jews in jerusalem. after the massacre it was declared as marking a point-of-no-return in Arab-Jewish relations, and forcing the Mizrahi Jews to join forces with Zionism.
to me it seems like the whole incident was manipulated by the zionists...
kimbers - I've seen that article but didn't want to bring it up myself but I'm glad you have...as it highlights what is inherently wrong with Israeli society. the minds of the people have been manipulated and brainwashed by the Zionist propaganda to the extent that they sit and cheer as the Palestinians are being bombed in their homes like as if they're watching some sporting event.
this is what the Zionist propaganda machine has done....it has completely devalued the lives of every Palestinian by legitimising their killing.
they dont like to hear the truth these zionists...even from one of their own...
kimbers - I've seen that article but didn't want to bring it up myself but I'm glad you have...as it highlights what is inherently wrong with Israeli society. the minds of the people have been manipulated and brainwashed by the Zionist propaganda to the extent that they sit and cheer as the Palestinians are being bombed in their homes like as if they're watching some sporting event.this is what the Zionist propaganda machine has done....it has completely devalued the lives of every Palestinian by legitimising their killing.
To be fair this works both ways and both sides have been brutalised (one massively more than the other) and desensitised.
It does however negate the arguments we repeatedly see here and elsewhere about the evil Palestinians celebrating death because of their warped religion, as compared to the supposedly more civilised Israelis.
Definitely takes away any pretence of moral high ground. As does:
[url= http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602334 ]
Ya'alon proposes new settlement in memory of murdered teens[/url]
"It is wrong to split the nation along ideological lines of construction that the entire nation is not behind," Livni said. "Such a move could also hurt our international legitimacy for a military operation against Hamas. Settlement construction at this stage would minimize the murders and transform it from a national issue to a political one."
To be fair this works both ways and both sides have been brutalised (one massively more than the other) and desensitised.
I'm not going to defend the actions of the PLO, Hamas or Fatah...all 3 have been as bad as each other in that they are woefully corrupt and ignorant to the needs of those who they are supposed to speak for.
they have between them done nothing to help ease the plight of the Palestinian people...all they have done is further exacerbate the tension between the 2 sides...however who else is there for the Palestinians to turn to?
the PLO tried to stand up for them but got it wrong on many occasions, the Israelis in their resistance against the PLO helped fund Hamas as the alternative to destabilise the PLO...once the PLO was out of the picture Hamas began to stand on its own 2 feet and then started to "bite the hand that fed it"
Fatah has been wholly ineffective right from the beginning and as a result during the independent election the people chose Hamas.
obviously this is not the result Israel wanted...especially seeing as it the monster it helped to create and is now its biggest enemy.
however although i wholly condemn the wrongful actions of the various Palestinian groups...this does in no way justify the disproportionate collective punishment meted out by the Israeli government.
however the Israelis are not helping themselves when their top politicians uphold this attitude/view:
Israeli parliament member and law-maker Ayalet Shaked has stigmatized all Palestinian as terrorists, wishing death on all Palestinians while supporting the Israeli military assault. "They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," said Shaked. Standing behind the operations to Gaza, "they are all our enemies and their blood should be in our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists," Shaked added.
http://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2014/07/14/mothers-of-all-palestinians-should-also-be-killed-says-israeli-politician
An Israeli lawmaker has called for the government and armed forces to cut off power to hospitals in Gaza, to kill off Palestinians.“The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israeli army] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza],” said Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, on Wednesday.
“Therefore I call on the prime minister who we all support in this difficult hour, before we send the IDF into Gaza, we should simply shut down their electricity,” he added.
During the televised parliamentary session where Feiglin made these calls for war crimes – heard clearly in the video below – he had already expelled three Palestinian members for criticizing Israel’s full-scale assault of Gaza which has claimed more than 150 Palestinian lives since Monday (around a third of them children), and injured over 1,000.
Feiglin, a member of Israeli prime minister’s ruling Likud party, has also recently pushed for legislation to replace occupied Jerusalem’s al-Aqsa mosque with a Jewish “Third Temple.” A provocation to the entire Muslim world.
During the same session, another member of parliament stated that Israeli missiles were good for Palestinians in Gaza. These comments are in tune with an atmosphere of intense incitement that has included lawmaker Ayelet Shaked taking to Facebook to call for genocide of the Palestinian people.
Israel often claims to be the only democracy in the Middle East.
However, whilst the nearly 1.7 million Palestinian citizens of Israel have the right to vote and be elected to the Knesset, the video below, edited and subtitled by Boycott from Within activist Ronnie Barkan, exposes the strict limits Israel places on freedom of expression.When lawmaker Ibrahim Sarsour of the United Arab List party condemned Israel’s attack on Gaza, Feiglin orders guards to forcibly remove him from the podium and expel him.
“Those who refer to Israeli soldiers as murderers will not stay here another second,” Feiglin states.
Shortly thereafter, Ahmed Tibi of the Arab Movement for Change raises his voice in condemnation of the incitement by Israeli leaders and rabbis that led to the kidnap and murder of Palestinian teen Muhammad Abu Khudair on 2nd July. As he reads aloud the names of Palestinian children killed in the bombing of Gaza – he is heckled throughout.
“The IDF is committing war crimes,” Tibi charges.
Feiglin calls Tibi “the representative for the martyrs” and declares, “there are no war crimes.”
Knesset member Masud Ghanayim takes to his feet to challenge this ban on dissenting Knesset members.
“You have massacred, you have murdered! And in Gaza, up to this moment, you murder,” he tells the parliament.
“And the army is an army of murderers, and you may kick me off the stage,” he says.
He is also removed.
Just incase anyone was hoping that Feiglin may have repented after considering the days events, he chose instead to brag about the expulsions on his Facebook page, later that day.
“Earlier today in the Knesset, I expelled 3 Arab MKs [Knesset members] from the plenum for calling our IDF soldiers ‘murderers,’” he wrote. “As long as I am in charge of the deliberations, nobody will get away with such lies.”
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/14/israeli-lawmaker-lets-cut-off-power-to-gaza-hospitals/
Ceasefire 9am local time but Hamas still firing rockets.
No response from Israel as yet, 5 hours later:
@AviMayer: Reminder: Israel accepted an Egyptian ceasefire at 9 a.m. today. Hamas publicly rejected it and has since fired 35+ rockets into Israel.
@JohninJerusalem: The crowd at Shifa just heard an outgoing rocket stream overhead, and cheered and chanted: 'Explode, explode Tel Aviv'. #Gaza
Of course a cease-fire and dialogue would be fantastic.
Did any Palestinian faction agree to the cease-fire? The Egyptian leadership isn't really trusted in Gaza since the coup though is it?
Nope:
@DanWilliams: Hamas armed wing rejects reported Egyptian ceasefire plan - website http://t.co/RCjDwSeefs via @Reuters
Shame - to understate completely.
